snowymountains Posted August 3 (edited) I'm wondering how does the Ungrund relate to the Abyss, is e.g. the Ungrund the name people use for the "destination" after crossing the Abyss or is it the Abyss itself? Where do God(s) fit into this cosmological picture, is e.g. the Christian trinitarian God part of the Ungrund? is the Christian trinitarian God the Ungrund itself? What about Gods of older religions, e.g. Ra, where did early alchemists "position" them in this cosmology? Did early alchemists even have a concept like the Ungrund or this is something that Boehme wrote about first? Edited August 3 by snowymountains Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted August 3 (edited) I use the Jewish Kabalistic cosmology to understand the phenomena. But I could be completely wrong. I welcome corrections on this. Here and now, the material world of material things, of events which flow in a sequence on a time-line, where no two things can occupy the same space at the same time, is shaped like a sphere. Just beyond that sphere is another sphere which is a border between here-and-now, the material world, and other realms. Once an individual is able to reliably traverse this border through their own will, they will have achieved something truly great. This achievement is what has been referred to as "ungrund" but I would call it "liberation". Just beyond the border, the "abyss", is a realm of a specific type of "angel". Borrowing from religious jargon, these angels are the "Beasts of the Field". They are conceptualized, in nearly infinite shapes and sizes, some of the most memorable are exact replicas of the Egyptian Gods. In Jewish mysticism the Egyptian Gods are among the angels of "Yetzirah", the realm of "forming". However, the angels do not have a will of their own. They are puppets, more-or-less. This realm includes all the possible permutations, transmutations of divinity which are taking form in an orderly manner here-and-now in the material realm. That's why you'll find a human form with an animal head in the realm of Yetzirah. There will also be beasts with many many eyes and a human form with blue skin and more than 2 arms in Yetzirah. There are shape shifters there. Fluid genders and fliud sexuality originate there as transmutations and permutations of the divine as well. All of these are what you are referring to as "Gods of the older religions". But it is not limited to these typical and memorable forms of divinity which ancient cultures called "Gods". That's the summary of my understanding of the concepts: Here-and-Now >>> Abyss >>> Ungrund >>> communion with Ancient Gods. In my culture we use different words for these concepts: Assiyah >>> K'lipah >>> Yetzirah >>> Chayyot. Now. Here's the important parts. ( For those that already know this and know it well, please forgive me for stating what is obvious to you. ) 1) These other realms? They're not physically beyond here-and-now. No. The "abyss" is not a physical destination, just as "heaven" in this context is not a physical destination either. It is not physically distant, it is beyond the physical in awareness. It is beyond the physical limitations of time and space. For example: An angel, lacking lips, and a human face, can speak from a bird's beak, in a realm which has no physical limitations. An individual here-and-now, in the material realm can listen and respond, to the magical talking human with a bird's head ( Ra ) once the individual fully realizes that the "heavens" are not physically distant, and they have "unlocked" their mind and heart in such a way that they are able to co-exist in the two realms without completely going insane. 2) The human mind-and-heart, as a pair, when they are operating cooperatively and in harmony with each other, are a microcosm of all of reality. Because of this, life itself, living as a human being, with all of the inherent trials and triumphs, passions and disappointments, which accompany each individual human life, is an opportunity to journey beyond the material realm and encounter the divine in its many forms. But. It's a choice. The immaterial journeying is limited only by the individual's motivations, enthusiasm, pain tolerance, imagination, and time. ( excluding those who mentally/physically ill, of course ). An individual can probe within their own heart-and-mind and have a realization about themself which will correspond to other individuals outside of themself. These realizations are often described as synchronicity. Sidebar: I would be remiss not to mention, that random chaotic coincidences are often confused for synchronicity. This is because random chaos is a form of divinity as well. And this contributes to the risk for insanity, at least temporarily, as the individual is having these realizations. These corresponding realizations which the individual experiences while probing inward, into their own heart-and-mind, and then observing corresponding phenomena in their day-to-day lives, are not limited to realizations about other human beings who are beyond the individual. They are much more inclusive. Rocks, trees, plants, insects, animals, smells, sights, tastes, and texture all have there own realms, which can be realized as corresponding to the spark of divinity in the human mind-and-heart. As the individual probes deeper and deeper ( like exploring an abyss ), greater and greater, more and more, inclusive realms are realized. These realms are nested, each one is like a layer, which includes all the previous layers, which includes all the previous layers, which includes all the previous layers, in a nearly infinite nested chain. In my culture, this chain is called "Seder Histalshalus". Wikipedia has a decent article on it. It's not perfect, but, it's rather well written, imo. They don't illustrate the nesting of each link and the inclusions which are increasing layer by layer "madregah l'madgreda" in the Hebrew language. Because the these correspondences to each individual's inward probing of their own heart-and-mind are vast, nearly infinite in scope and diversity, and because each individual's mind-and-heart is different, the process for realizing these correspondences is a different experience for each individual. Sometimes it's smoothly progressing. Sometimes it ebbs and flows. Sometimes there's plateaus and false summits to contend with. Sometimes the individual seeker needs to metaphorically hop, skip, and jump in order to continue to make progress. And. Sometimes it happens all at once in the blink of an eye. 3 hours ago, snowymountains said: I'm wondering how does the Ungrund relate to the Abyss, is e.g. the Ungrund the name people use for the "destination" after crossing the Abyss or is it the Abyss itself? It's not either/or, both are happening simultaneously. It feels like crossing the Abyss, because that's the easiest way for the mind-and-heart to conceptualize it and make sense of it. But that's not what's actually happening. It's a realization. In my culture we have an expression: "It's a paradox, but, it's only a paradox." Then we smile. Our sages in the past frequently are quoted reminding the aspirant: "Both this and that are the words of the living God." "This" and "that" are contradicting concepts. When the sage says: "Both this and that are the words of the living God." they are reminding the student that the contradiction is an illusion. It isn't "either/or". It's "both, simultaneously, this and that". 3 hours ago, snowymountains said: Where do God(s) fit into this cosmological picture, is e.g. the Christian triadic God part of the Ungrund? is the Christian triadic God the Ungrund itself? The English word "God" is notoriously vague. In my culture it is specific. God is unknowable; it is The Source. It is the Source which is creating, right now, the ungrund, the abyss, the material realm, the immaterial realm, thoughts, feelings, events, concepts, words, my laptop, my nostrils, my whiskers, all of it. The Christian trinity is a form, a revelation of divinity. If I were to guess, you are asking about the "God-head" in Christian theology? This is a concept which exists in my culture. The early Christian theologians were Jewish, so, they probably were familiar with the concept. The God-Head is the largest, most all encompassing, of all the layers of divinity in the nearly infinite nested chain of revelations of God's will. 3 hours ago, snowymountains said: What about Gods of older religions, e.g. Ra, where did early alchemists "position" them in this cosmology? Did early alchemists even have a concept like the Ungrund or this is something that Boehme wrote about first? You're asking about position, but, position is meaningless in this context. Each individual will assimilate their experiences, mundane or not, from within their own frame of reference, from within their own cultural context. Even a hermit has a cultural context. Their frame of reference is isolation and perhaps plants, animals, and insects. For these individuals, it makes sense that for them, they would experience something akin to druidry when they are probing inward and realizing the vast array of correspondence expanding and nesting, layer after layer after layer in their environment which is including them. Also, due to the isolation, they may confuse themself with God, the Source which is creating everything. Someone raised in a war-zone , as a warrior, might encounter gods/angles of war, conflict, and chaos in the "first" position. But each individual is different. Modern seekers might encounter some sort of "Borg", or something, in their endeavors. There are as many possibilities as their are individuals in regard to the position of that which will be encountered beyond the "Abyss". For those who are curious, I found what seems to be a very good Master's Thesis on Boehme's writing from University of Oklahoma. It appears to have been signed and accepted by the faculty. Their signatures have been recused. I haven't read it, but, it looks interesting and robust. https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/329740/2003_Herd_Van_Thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Edited August 3 by Daniel 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
