true names of God(s), Demons etc

[snowymountains]

In some religious traditions Gods and Demons have "true names" which are distinct from the common names people use to refer to them.

True names typically were known only by priests of the said Gods and Demons but not known to the wider population. The use of the "true name" allegedly is to summon God(s) and Demons.

 

In terms of names discovered exclusively by means of archeological research/excavations etc, have any fragments, papyri etc been found which mention alleged true names?

[Cadcam]

It's all made up, and even if a God or Demon gave someone their true name, they wouldn't respond unless so inclined 

[snowymountains]

31 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

It's all made up, and even if a God or Demon gave someone their true name, they wouldn't respond unless so inclined 

 

If there's an expectation that metaphysical entities materialise after a secret name is pronounced the right way, then indeed it all is made up.

 

However, I find value in studying the "true names" for their own sake, independently of whether these had been used with an expectation to summon gods, demons etc.

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, snowymountains said:

The use of the "true name" allegedly is to summon God(s) and Demons.

 

 

"The use of ..."

 

Yes.  Excellent choice of words.  The true name is used, not merely uttered.  When it is articulated, properly, using its true name, the divinity can be summoned depending on the circumstances. Proper articulation becomes a ritual when mind-and-heart comprehension of each syllable is layered onto the name as it is being spoken, out-loud,  while the caster is in a ... ... mystical trance, for lack of better words. 

[Ascetic]

7 hours ago, Cadcam said:

It's all made up, and even if a God or Demon gave someone their true name, they wouldn't respond unless so inclined 

What uselessness has pervaded humans into thinking Gods or Demons are a higher order. In the social ladder, Gods are actually beneath humans, it is through exaltation and faith that they achieve higher status. Faith en mass, concerted effort unlike what is visible in the modern world, does achieve beings that are so beyond consciousness and have their own pleasures/enjoyment.

Faith is a science that has not been developed here, it has been a lazy effort that while receiving much attention has never been developed to the point that Magical societies develop their faiths.

The trick of Faith though is being able to make use of something that you are supporting with your intelligence or even gain from one sided conversation. It would be like somehow being able to help yourself when you are suffering, unnatural and requiring skill. Conversation with Gods is always one sided unless there is miracle for this reason. It is fair to assume that a God does not exist outside your intelligence, and that every favor and indulgence is reliant on your being.

Relationships can form that are entirely present only in your mind or divine secrets that have no actual benefit or value.

Gods can become a dominant part of nature, but never happens here because people don't exhaust themselves as they should. Enormous amounts of Faith can make miracles more common but it is a spectacle because even one worshipper is enough to spawn a Demigod of a Faith: whether todays inability is because laziness or uselessness of today's human; it is hard to say.

But exposure to faith is healthy, being able to visualize or have your consciousness support things greater than yourself only brings happiness. 

It is not unreasonable that Gods can accumulate resources and Demons can exist on their own. There are also some Archaic Gods that can exist after worship, but these are like scrolls and ancient ruins in consciousness that need to be uncovered. Purely valuable in some sense, and holding vast vats of information.

Just as someone might find a bitcoin wallet hidden on a flash drive somewhere; there are countless flash drives you could pick up but few actually have anything valuable like a bitcoin wallet. But anyone can make a flash drive very valuable through concerted effort. Faith with Gods is very similar, in a large faith I'm sure there can be communication from other followers.

Humans being the Higher order and Gods being the lower order, this is how humans worship. Because all things considered Humans do not actually have the talent for worship. That talent falls towards Kobolds, Kobolds are the only creature I've found with a talent for worship whereas humans may only have a talent for soul/intelligence.

In Kobold Worship, there is true worship from lower order to higher order, and worshippers can manifest their gods into the physical world. The idea of being able to think of something larger than yourself, and that having a larger impact than you yourself. To put it simply, most humans who worship have to demean themselves into Kobolds, and Kobolds ... well... are already Kobolds. 

Of course though Kobolds do not exist here and are only present on other worlds.

What I can say, is that one can even gain benefit from consorting with Kobold Gods in other planes, far more easily than it is to gain benefits from your own worship. Perhaps a true name is like slavery, because it'd be like finding someone's enlightenment before they do, but enlightenment is a rash term.

There is some kind of psychic market in selling valuable true names though, it's hard to navigate though. One valuable connection I know of is odd, one begins by worshipping a Kobold Princess instead of the Kobold God and then having that Princess manifest the God's pressure. You can ask this pressure or the princess for true names and so on through the God's presence. The sense of your own dominance over conversation you naturally suffer is actually an advantage in environments/scenarios like this.

Made up... made up... of course things that someone thinks are made up will be made up. But not everything in faith or that has to do with Gods is like this. Some things can't be disproven and are even more solid that science in their value.
 

Edited August 3 by Emaciated Ascetic

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, snowymountains said:

In some religious traditions Gods and Demons have "true names" which are distinct from the common names people use to refer to them.

True names typically were known only by priests of the said Gods and Demons but not known to the wider population. The use of the "true name" allegedly is to summon God(s) and Demons.

 

In terms of names discovered exclusively by means of archeological research/excavations etc, have any fragments, papyri etc been found which mention alleged true names?

 

What about a whole language to use to communicate with them ?  

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

What about a whole language to use to communicate with them ?  

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian

 

Does it work?  Have you tried it?

[Nungali]

Of course .

 

First I spent around 90 hours making  each  set of 'keyboards'  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are 5 of them .

[Nungali]

Supposedly, people report that this system gives them the 'best' results , particularly when they have tried other systems and ..... zilch, nada,  zero.    ie,  ' nothing happened ' .

[Nungali]

In any case its a bit off topic. Returning to that , the examples I am thinking of are mostly  from Egyptology and yes we have fragmentary textual evidence of it - that's how we know they did it , or at least referred to it - there is the story of Isis tricking Ra to get is secret name . regarding more on this and further archaeological evidence and research   I suggest you ask Apech .

 

Then there is the classical Jewish idea about God's name  ....... shhhhh !    And that pesky angel that would not give his name up  to Joseph .... or whatever HIS real name was    

 

Going back to Enochian for a moment (or any form of ritual magic ) ... in contacting a 'spirit' (or  whatever )  always get a name first !    may as well fight to get it , if you dont get 'the right one'  * up front then you will be up for trouble and a fight with it later at some stage .

 

*  That is, its name should confirm to analysis . This often done via gematria .   Also , Socrates talks about it in Plato's 'Cratylus' ; conventional or 'natural' names  ; τῇ ἀληθείᾳ ὄνομα .  One is a system of symbols showing sounds that arbitrarily describe things, the 'natural, the symbols have intrinsic relation to the things they symbolise . 

 

This also has a counterpart in pre literate traditions ;  certainly with  special names  , but also 'secret languages ', including sign language , both  mundane and spiritual ( eg for hunting or ceremonial / initiation  knowledge  ) , and also even pronunciation  . I have heard a near perfect pronunciation of a difficult indigenous word , by a language teacher, only for her to be corrected  by an elder who explained that the way she said the word , the name of a bird, did not reflect the way that bird called .

 

another example of this was with my indigenous teacher; we where lying back at night looking up to a  clear  sky brilliantly illuminated by  a multitude of bright stars  and he said to me ' Do you know what our word is for them stars up there ?"

Me: " No, I dont know that one. "

Him :  "  We call them ... 'Ooo Ahhhs '  ...... lokkit all them ooo- ars  up there  !  "

 

... and , I kid you not , their word for this fellah is

 

 

Buddha bear , budabear , budabar . . . in their particular dialect .

 

 

.

Edited August 4 by Nungali

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

In any case its a bit off topic. Returning to that , the examples I am thinking of are mostly  from Egyptology and yes we have fragmentary textual evidence of it - that's how we know they did it , or at least referred to it - there is the story of Isis tricking Ra to get is secret name . regarding more on this and further archaeological evidence and research   I suggest you ask Apech .

...

 

I don't think you'll find archaeological evidence which reveals secret names - unless you go to the magical papyrii (and some of the more obscure chapters of the BoD) but then they are usually gobbledygook.  But the idea of gaining power by knowing the true name was a commonly held idea - the best example being the one @Nungali gave of Isis tricking Ra.  Also the name 'ren' of anyone was considered an entity which survived death and also by being repeated guaranteed continued existence.  In the Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor the Serpent god who rescues the sailor asks that 'his name be remembered in his city' as a recompense for all that the god has done for the sailor.  So for gods their sustained existence relied on being remembered - that is their name being known and repeated.  Whether this meant their ordinary name of their secret name is not said.

 

A secret name - or true name - is based on the idea that the universe is based on vibrational energy which at a mechanical level is sound.  So sound creates form.  Vocare est invocare.  To name is to invoke.  Such as when God says 'Let there be light' - he speaks to call out light into existence.  So all beings have in this sense an essential vibrational state which is unique to them - this being their true name - as distinct to their received name or label.  I think of this as being much the same as being able to recognise the individual 'hum' of a car engine - you can easily recognise who is coming when you hear the approaching car because if known to you, you can recognise individual distinct features in the sound of the car's engine - even though all cars are very similar and you may not have consciously analysed the sound signature.

 

If you are attuned in this way to others then quite often, if you are sensitive you can tell if they are around without actually seeing them, or suddenly think of them before they phone or arrive ... this is a well known phenomena.  Going back to Egypt this would be about the individuals 'ka' which is their bio-field - this field will have certain frequency characteristics - and so 'ren' and 'ka' are related.  Both are thought to dissipate after death if certain practices do not maintain them - hence the role of the hemu-ka or ka priest.

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

23 hours ago, snowymountains said:

In terms of names discovered exclusively by means of archeological research/excavations etc, have any fragments, papyri etc been found which mention alleged true names?

of course there were. e.g

. Before the names of the Maya deities were deciphered, Itzamná was known as "god D"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itzamna

 

but those true names still remained secret. because a secret is not something people do not know. a secret is something people refuse to know.

 

[snowymountains]

18 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

"The use of ..."

 

Yes.  Excellent choice of words.  The true name is used, not merely uttered.  When it is articulated, properly, using its true name, the divinity can be summoned depending on the circumstances. Proper articulation becomes a ritual when mind-and-heart comprehension of each syllable is layered onto the name as it is being spoken, out-loud,  while the caster is in a ... ... mystical trance, for lack of better words. 

 

I would say the true name describes the core essence of the archetype, some may call the archetype, God, Demon, others nature.

 

Somehow "syncing" with the archetype is in essence communion. If ritual helps with that then good, if not then it's not needed. I don't believe the choice of spoken language matters either, unless choice of language helps someone "sync", which is a personal thing.

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

Vocare est invocare.  To name is to invoke.  Such as when God says 'Let there be light' - he speaks to call out light into existence. 

umm, if there was no light in existence then what was there to invoke? or with what name?

Edited August 4 by Taoist Texts

[snowymountains]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

A secret name - or true name - is based on the idea that the universe is based on vibrational energy which at a mechanical level is sound.  So sound creates form.  Vocare est invocare.  To name is to invoke. 

 

My view is that sound is secondary, the true names, help sync with archetypes that are already in us.

One may not even need the true name and still interact, or the archetype may reveal a true name in later time that makes sense for a given language and cultural background. The use of the name is to help someone sync with the archetype.

 

So I don't see it as metaphysics where some acoustic frequency makes an entity materialise. It's more that a true name will help connecting to an archetype that already exists within. So sound frequencies may be of use to some, may not be of use to others.

[snowymountains]

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

...

 

I don't think you'll find archaeological evidence which reveals secret names - unless you go to the magical papyrii (and some of the more obscure chapters of the BoD) but then they are usually gobbledygook. 

 

The papyrii is what I had in mind when I started this thread and was wondering what other fragments exists which may contain true names.

Sounds like not much exists, the priests took their Gods true names to their graves it seems.

[snowymountains]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

What about a whole language to use to communicate with them ?  

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian

 

Thank you @Nungali, though I wanted something from archaeological evidence specifically so that it's not fused with constructs from later eras, so I will pass 

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

umm, if there was no light in existence then what was there to invoke? or with what name?

To exist means to stand forth - so in this case call forth might be the right expression.  Everything including light is in potential but not actual until invoked.  Or that’s how I see it.

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

My view is that sound is secondary, the true names, help sync with archetypes that are already in us.

One may not even need the true name and still interact, or the archetype may reveal a true name in later time that makes sense for a given language and cultural background. The use of the name is to help someone sync with the archetype.

 

So I don't see it as metaphysics where some acoustic frequency makes an entity materialise. It's more that a true name will help connecting to an archetype that already exists within. So sound frequencies may be of use to some, may not be of use to others.

ok I guess that would be a common if flawed view.

[snowymountains]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

ok I guess that would be a common if flawed view.

 

common it could be, flawed is only to seek sound frequencies to materialise beings.

[Taoist Texts]

Quote

true name will help connecting to an archetype

he hears his name and goes: yes hi, thats me, what can i do you for!

 

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

Or that’s how I see it.

thats totally reasonable POV. there is another school of thought: magical name works because of what the name means.;)

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

he hears his name and goes: yes hi, thats me, what can i do you for!

 

Well, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying but whatevs suits you

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Of course [ I tested it and it works ].

 

You tested it yourself and it works?  Are you saying that you communicated with angels, demons, gods, etc, with the enochian language?  Are you able to demonstrate this?

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Supposedly, people report that this system gives them the 'best' results , particularly when they have tried other systems and ..... zilch, nada,  zero.    ie,  ' nothing happened ' .

 

So, it works because it's better than nothing?  That's not a very strong endorsement.  Is that what you meant by claiming you'd tested it yourself and it worked?

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, Emaciated Ascetic said:

Some things can't be disproven

 

Correct.  The observer effect interferes with the test.