true names of God(s), Demons etc

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Then there is the classical Jewish idea about God's name  ....... shhhhh !    And that pesky angel that would not give his name up  to Joseph .... or whatever HIS real name was    

 

It was an angel, but, the divine names aren't secrets.  At least, not anymore.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

I would say the true name describes the core essence of the archetype, some may call the archetype, God, Demon, others nature.

 

Agreed.

 

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

Somehow "syncing" with the archetype is in essence communion. If ritual helps with that then good, if not then it's not needed. I don't believe the choice of spoken language matters either, unless choice of language helps someone "sync", which is a personal thing.

 

Without the ritual it is an inward practice limited to the physical body.  The communion is with the divinity which exists in the physical mind-and-heart often referred to as the subconscious. 

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I don't believe the choice of spoken language matters

 

True, to an extent.  There's nothing inherently magical about the language used for the true name.  It's a practical matter.  The ritual is built from layers of simultaneous symmetrical significance.  The true name in their original language is usually compact and concentrated so that it can be articulated quickly with minimal vocalization.  This permits the necessary simultaneity.  If the name is constructed from a different language, it will probably take many more spoken words to bring forward the same divinity.

 

Speaking the words out-loud is a very important part of the ritual.  I can think in my mind, and contemplate a demon whom I have labeled "Blame".  That one word:  "Blame" is very easy to say.  But the contemplation that is happening in the mind is so much richer and more detailed than simply saying this word out-loud.  Because of this, if this particular "demon" ( thought-form ) rises up in my own heart-and-mind, I can easily banish it.  I name it:  "Blame" and I cast it out.  "Begone."  It's that simple.  But that only works internally.  If I want to do something much grander than that, I need a lot more than the word: "Blame".  Even-though the word "Blame" captures that demon for me, it's still completely isolated in my own physical psyche.  

 

Edited August 4 by Daniel

[Apech]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

common it could be, flawed is only to seek sound frequencies to materialise beings.

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

he hears his name and goes: yes hi, thats me, what can i do you for!

 

Thats the simple theory behind Enochian 

 

" Hey ... Gwimbole !  Whats up ? "  ( or actually ; " Sia ! Gwimbole ! Tua fa a niu ? " )

....  nothing ! 

Instead ;

"  Hey Taoist Texts !  What's up ?"

" Oh ....  the usual, just trying to educate some Daobums ."

Gotta speak the lingo to get a result .

 

thats totally reasonable POV. there is another school of thought: magical name works because of what the name means.;)

 

Yes, potentially one way . An opposite way  is the use ; of 'barbarous tongues ' ,  'unfamiliar language or not understood language ' -  it puts the mind in a different mode .  

 

"

 

1 Corinthians 14

 

 

New International Version

 

 

 

Intelligibility in Worship

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. ² For anyone who speaks in a tongue^[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. ³ But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. ⁴ Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. ⁵ I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,^[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,^[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

⁶ Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? ⁷ Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? ⁸ Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? ⁹ So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. ¹⁰ Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. ¹¹ If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. ¹² So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

¹³ For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. ¹⁴ For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. ¹⁵ So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. ¹⁶ Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,^[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? ¹⁷ You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

¹⁸ I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. ¹⁹ But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

²⁰ Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. ²¹ In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
    and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
    but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”^[e]

²² Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. ²³ So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? ²⁴ But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, ²⁵ as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

You tested it yourself and it works?  Are you saying that you communicated with angels, demons, gods, etc, with the enochian language?  Are you able to demonstrate this?

 

I already explained how this is off topic for here , so settle down  and shift out of 'Daniel Denial' gear .

 

The issue was , not only are there secret names to communicate with 'other beings '  (or 'spirits' if one prefers ) there is  also a whole language .

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

So, it works because it's better than nothing? 

That's not a very strong endorsement.  Is that what you meant by claiming you'd tested it yourself and it worked?

 

No .

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I became fascinated with  these plates as a lad .   You can do similar on a good tight drum skin .  You can 'Om' it slowly and watch the pattern change as the sound changes .  Its also interesting to look at the pattern of certain 'magical words'  ( they are said to be needed to be 'vibrated' in a certain way ) .

 

The thing is , it does not 'materialize'  anything though ... it organizes material that has already 'materialized'  into a pattern or structure   

 

" And God said ; 'Let there be  LVX '  ... and there was light .... organized out of  ........ some other stuff    . 

 

What other stuff ?     Never you mind , it was 'inscrutable' and from a 'different dimension . '

 

 

[Apech]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I became fascinated with  these plates as a lad .   You can do similar on a good tight drum skin .  You can 'Om' it slowly and watch the pattern change as the sound changes .  Its also interesting to look at the pattern of certain 'magical words'  ( they are said to be needed to be 'vibrated' in a certain way ) .

 

The thing is , it does not 'materialize'  anything though ... it organizes material that has already 'materialized'  into a pattern or structure   

 

" And God said ; 'Let there be  LVX '  ... and there was light .... organized out of  ........ some other stuff    . 

 

What other stuff ?     Never you mind , it was 'inscrutable' and from a 'different dimension . '

 

 

It produces forms as in namo/rupa … name and form - the 10 k things.  But I agree not out of nothing but perhaps no-thing?

[Nungali]

But what is the 'unknown impetus'   to 'bring things forth'  ?   In Daoism, I mean .  In  Christian  creationist theology and  Chladni plates it is sound , in daosim ... what is the term  (translated as  ' begot'  by some )  ... in Ch 42, I mean .

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

…. what is the term  (translated as  ' begot'  by some )  ... in Ch 42 …

 

生 sheng1 - to grow; to give birth to. 

Etymology: oracle bone a bud sprouting from the ground. 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/生

 

Edited August 5 by Cobie

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

… what is the 'unknown impetus'   to 'bring things forth'  ?   In Daoism …

“In Daoism” it’s Dao.   道 dao4 - Dao.

DDJ Ch 25: 天下 母 … 道  tiānxià mǔ … dào  - the mother of all things … ‘Dao’.

 

Dao is ziran, the state of not relying on or existing according to anything external. *

DDJ Ch 25: 道 法 自然 dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2 - Dao has no law above it.

 

* 自然 zi4 ran2 - ziran. Heshanggong’s Commentary, p 2 https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/religions/religions-13-00596/article_deploy/religions-13-00596-v3.pdf?version=1656581301 

~~~

Some other Daoist creation myths:

太一生水 tai4 yi1 sheng1 shui3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui 

盤古 pan2 gu3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu   
 

 

Edited August 5 by Cobie

[Daniel]

 

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

No .

 

Nungali, if you've tested this enochian language, and you say that it works, please demonstrate.   Otherwise, what is the point in bringing it up?

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

it was 'inscrutable'

 

Nungali, if you are confused, it's probably because you're not reading the text in its original language.

 

Edited August 5 by Daniel

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

… sound … 

Or thought? λόγος Logos https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/λόγος

 

 

Edited August 5 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Instead ;

"  Hey Taoist Texts !  What's up ?"

" Oh ....  the usual, just trying to educate some Daobums ."

Gotta speak the lingo to get a result .

no, no, you guys just dont think this through;)

you see, even if you speak my lingo i may congratulate you on your linguistics but i am not going to wash your car for you.

even if you address me by my secret middle name there will be no result. 'Gimme gimme because your name is Jimmy"? How does that work?

16 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Well, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying 

i know. i was only poking fun at those who think that invoking a spirit by his true name somehow makes the spirit to do their bidding. why would it? they just dont think that far ahead;)

[snowymountains]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It was an angel, but, the divine names aren't secrets.  At least, not anymore.

 

In which texts can they be found ?

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

Or thought? λόγος Logos https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/λόγος

 

 

 

When we think of a word our vocal cords and muscles move slightly. Thinking of a word and saying it is much closer than widely believed.

The reverse is also true, saying something ( because e.g. we read out loud a text ) will induce thoughts.

 

Tbh I don't believe it makes a huge difference either way, though both thinking of something and speaking it at the same time, mindfully speaking if you like, is the strongest.

A ritual may also help someone feel something to the core of their bones, but someone else may do the same thing by being is a single focus meditative state. Tbh I think both approaches are equally valid towards achieving the goal and selection is largely a matter of background culture and taste.

 

The true name is typically somewhat descriptive of the essence of a God/Demon, or if you prefer Archetype. 

Which why it's interesting, it sort of attempts to "evoke" the archetype by bringing its essence to the conscious mind.

 

As a sidekick to the thread, does Daoism have something similar to "true names", if so are they written in any "classic" Daoist book, which also happens to be translated in English ?

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

When we think of a word our vocal cords and muscles move slightly. Thinking of a word and saying it is much closer than widely believed.

The reverse is also true, saying something ( because e.g. we read out loud a text ) will induce thoughts.

 

Tbh I don't believe it makes a huge difference either way, though both thinking of something and speaking it at the same time, mindfully speaking if you like, is the strongest.

A ritual may also help someone feel something to the core of their bones, but someone else may do the same thing by being is a single focus meditative state. Tbh I think both approaches are equally valid towards achieving the goal and selection is largely a matter of background culture and taste.

 

The true name is typically somewhat descriptive of the essence of a God/Demon, or if you prefer Archetype. 

Which why it's interesting, it sort of attempts to "evoke" the archetype by bringing its essence to the conscious mind.

 

As a sidekick to the thread, does Daoism have something similar to "true names", if so are they written in any "classic" Daoist book, which also happens to be translated in English ?

 

 

Tantric Buddhist deities have seed syllables - sounds from which they arise.  For instance Chrezig (Avolokiesvara) has the seed syllable HRi.  In the sadhana the seed syllable which contains the essence of the deity is seen as being on a lotus, from this the deity springs forth instantly.  So in a sense the seed syllable is their secret name (although not so secret really).

 

Don't know about Daoism.

[old3bob]

be careful what you ask for, you might get it....

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

why would it?

 

Because it is their nature.  They will obey.

 

Your question is nothing more than asking:  "Why does the light switch turn on the light?"

 

We are talking about forces of nature.  Gravity has no choices to make.  Neither do these other forces.  However, this does prohibit blaming these divinities for circumstances beyond control, and that's one of the favored hobbies of almost all humans.  We feel so much better if we have something to blame.  It's an over reliance on needing to know, "gnosticism".

 

Once some invisible god/demon has been blamed, then the individual deludes themself into "knowing" what happened and why.  This gnostic appraisal double edged sword.  On the one hand it's very satisfying to know, on the other hand, the individual has stifled any attempt at real problem solving and advancement.

 

Gnosticism has a lot of problems.

 

Edited August 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

In which texts can they be found ?

 

It depends on the divinity.  I work with the divine names of the one called אייבישטער, literally, The Most High.  There's rarely any reason for me to use any others.  But I know a few.  

 

There's a list of 7 angel names encoded in the ana b'coakh prayer recited daily in my faith community.

 

Here's a picture from my siddur, ( prayer book ).  But it's not of much use on its own.

 

 

A decent explanation and pronunciation is here:  LINK.  Not perfect, but a good place to start.

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

does Daoism have something similar to "true names",

of course

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulu

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

if so are they written in any "classic" Daoist book,

yes https://en.daoinfo.org/wiki/Talismans

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

which also happens to be translated in English ?

not as a whole. for  excerpts you can try this https://archive.org/details/TheTeachingsOfTaoistMasterChuang

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Because it is their nature.  They will obey. Your question is nothing more than asking:  "Why does the light switch turn on the light?" We are talking about forces of nature.  Gravity has no choices to make. 

not to mention the green cheese moon!  not much choice there either.

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

not to mention the green cheese moon!  not much choice there either.

 

I can show you Sama'ail.  Can you show me the green cheese moon?

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

not to mention the green cheese moon!  not much choice there either.

 

I can show you TohuVaVohu.  Can you show me a green cheese moon?