the lords prayer

[blue eyed snake]

dear bums, 

 

I have a vague memory that the lords prayer, as it is used in Christianity, has older roots. 

 

Maybe Zoroastrianism? 

 

but my memory is becoming more fuzzy lately and would be grateful if someone could tell me about is, preferably with an internet source 

 

 

[Nungali]

Surprise surprise !

 

probably from Judaism ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amidah#Within_the_early_Christian_Church

 

https://www.biblescholars.org/2013/05/the-lords-prayer-and-the-amidah.html

[silent thunder]

And judaism was borrowed and adapted as well...

[blue eyed snake]

yes, and i seem to remember it was influenced quite a bit by Zoroastrianism which in its turn was influenced by what we now call Hinduism.  

 

and for that bit I would like to find the source where the " i seem to remember the lords prayer has an earlier form in Zoroastrianism " comes from   

[Nungali]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:08 AM, silent thunder said:

And judaism was borrowed and adapted as well...

 

Not according to Daniel    

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

yes, and i seem to remember it was influenced quite a bit by Zoroastrianism which in its turn was influenced by what we now call Hinduism.  

 

and for that bit I would like to find the source where the " i seem to remember the lords prayer has an earlier form in Zoroastrianism " comes from   

 

Well, in the 'old period',  when they spoke Avestan and located in Central Asia a lot of Zoroastrian prayers where more like mantras . This indicates the closeness to the Vedic tradition  and postulated to have roots in an earlier ' Indo _ Iranian ' culture .

 

The main one and the others which seem related  are somewhat obscure  :  " Given its syntactic density, scholarly agreement on a definitive translation, or even close approximation of its meaning, remains unlikely. Translations based on Middle Persian interpretations (and commentaries) of the hymn also exist and can differ greatly from those based on the Avestan original. "

 

 

Mantra type .

 

An example of one , with the more modern interpretation

Ahuna Vairya

"

Both the lord and the leader are to be chosen

because of their righteousness.

These two appointments are made with good mind

so that acts of life are done for the Wise One,

and the dominion of God is well established,

in which the chosen person becomes the rehabilitator

of the rightful who are oppressed. "

Ashem Vohu

 

Righteousness is best (of all that is) good.
As desired, what is being desired
is truth for him who (represents) best truth.

or:

Order is the best good (reward/possession) there is.
There are wished-for things in his wish for this one
when his Order is for the best Order.^[10]

or:

Truth is best (of all that is) good.
As desired, as desired, truth
is for him who (represents) best truth.^[11]

or:

Holiness (Asha) is the best of all good:
it is also happiness.
Happy the man who is holy with perfect holiness!"^[12]

or:

Righteousness is the best good and it is happiness.
Happiness is to her/him who is righteous
for the sake of the best righteousness.^[13]

 

Yenghe hatam

 

That one (masculine or neuter singular) of the beings indeed is for worship
who Mazda Ahura knows as better according to righteousness from the female beings also
These ones (masculine) and these ones (feminine) we worship.

 

airyaman ishya

 

May the much desired Brotherhood come hither for our rejoicing,

For the men and for the maidens of Zarathushtra,

for the fulfilment of Vohu Mano (good mind);

Whosoever Inner-self earns the precious reward.

I will pray to Asha (righteousness) for the blessing,

Which greatly to be desired, Ahura Mazda hath meant for us.^[7]

A liturgically inclined translation by Vazquez reads:

May Airyaman bring aid to all people of Zarathushtra,

And uphold the enlightened spiritual teachings,

Which deserve enviable praise.

I plead for the empowerment,

Which Ashi provides through Asha,

As Ahura Mazda has ordained.

 

They are the four main old ones that  go together as the 'main mantra' .

 

The The afrinagan  set seem to be remnant of the animal sacrifice  rites of the Aryans  ( which Zoroaster  forbade )

 

The nirang set are for specific occasions and relate to the mantras .

 

The Monojat set seemed Islamic influenced .

 

I would venture to say that invocations of ' all powerful father' are more likely to arise  in  warlord cultures with patriarchal hierarchies . ( and then modified into a Christian 'loving father of hope'  form .  Zoroastrianism  was not like that  and seems based more on cultivating good qualities and equality of sexes .  That was apparent right up to and through the Persian Empire .

 

You might be right on the connection though , but I have not been able to find it .

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

yes, and i seem to remember it was influenced quite a bit by Zoroastrianism which in its turn was influenced by what we now call Hinduism.  

 

Not so much , it was more like they both came from a similar or same source ; Andronovo  coming down into Central Asia and mixing in and dividing with north  ( Aral Sea and east of Kunlun)  and south ( Margiana , later BMAC ) indigenous ; 'Aryan peoples' / Indo- Iranians .

 

 

Then there was a shit fight and a division that evolved into Hindu and Zoroastrian

 

 

 

and for that bit I would like to find the source where the " i seem to remember the lords prayer has an earlier form in Zoroastrianism " comes from   

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

On 8/5/2024 at 1:40 PM, blue eyed snake said:

I have a vague memory that the lords prayer, as it is used in Christianity, has older roots. 

 

Maybe Zoroastrianism? 

great question. Not quite Zoroastrianism but a related religion of Mithra

https://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html

 

Quote

But does someone ask by whose ingenuity these things are explained so that they
lead to heresy? By the Devil, whose work it is to twist the truth, who imitates the
sacraments in his mysteries of divine idols. He even sprinkles some of his believers
and faithful, and promises redemption of sin through the bath, and if I remember
Mithras, he signs his soldiers on the forehead (or: ,by the water’). He celebrates
the sacrifice of the bread and shows an image of resurrection, and under the sword
he denounces the crown. (Tertullian praescr. 40, 1-4; quoted in Roselaar 2014:
192)
The devil [is the inspirer of the heretics] whose work it is to pervert the truth, who
with idolatrous mysteries endeavors to imitate the realities of the divine
sacraments. Some he himself sprinkles as though in token of faith and loyalty; he
promises forgiveness of sins through baptism; and if my memory does not fail me
marks his own soldiers with the sign of Mithra on their foreheads, commemorates
an offering of bread, introduces a mock resurrection, and with the sword opens the
way to the crown (Tertullian, De paraescriptione haereticorum, 40:3-4).

 

[Nungali]

38 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

great question. Not quite Zoroastrianism but a related religion of Mithra

https://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html

 

 

 

Heavily influenced  by Zoroastrianism  , in some core concepts seem to have existed in Zoroastrianism previously  that passed into Mythracism , as the cited article outlines . It also shows how concepts embedded in the early Christian church  that did not come from Zoroastrianism  did come Mythracism

 

It was a strange journey from this

 

 

to doing this 'in remembrance of me'

 

 

Incense, candles, ritual, a 'spoken spell' , different coloured robes, precious temple 'equipment'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

to doing this 'in remembrance of me'

very very true...it was the later addition from the OT

Quote

The biblical regulations specify that cups of frankincense were to be placed upon the rows of cakes, and the Septuagint, but not the Masoretic Text, states that salt was mixed with the frankincense; the frankincense, which the Septuagint refers to as an anamnesis,  constituted a memorial (azkarah), having been offered upon the altar to God (Leviticus 24:7–9).

 

the only thing is, in the NT originally  there was no 'remembrance'. originally it was the literal eating of his literal body and the literal drinking of his literal blood both substantiated by bread. 

Quote

And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”  And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it.  And he said to them, “This is my blood

same as the Mithra's bull's flesh and blood was consumed literally. Not in remembrance of the bull, but in order to become the bull. If you want to be like Christ you gotta eat him. A mere remembrance gets you nowhere.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Incense, candles, ritual, a 'spoken spell' , different coloured robes, precious temple 'equipment'

all of that was already present in the parent religions long before so it was part and parcel from the get-go

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

in some core concepts seem to have existed in Zoroastrianism previously  that passed into Mythracism

thats true, most importantly the bread sacrifice to replace the bull/Christ; the preceding religions also sacrificed bread but as a literal bread only, no substantiation . The substantiation was the sea change effected by the new religions

 

Quote

 an example being the Babylonian practice of offering to their gods a number of different kinds of cakes/bread (akalu);^[2] the Hebrew term for showbread, Lehem haPanim, is exactly translated by the Assyrian phrase akal pânu, which refers to the Babylonian cake/bread offerings.^[2]

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On 8.8.2024 at 1:36 AM, Nungali said:

*nungali on mantras in zoroastrianism

I see words like justice, truth, order and rightfullness is used a lot. I wonder, was the avestan term arta?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On 8.8.2024 at 1:43 AM, Nungali said:

Then there was a shit fight and a division that evolved into Hindu and Zoroastrian

Do we know more about this? I have wondered why the devas and asuras are flipped in their respective culture. Is it the same concept as olympians vs titans, or Aesir vs. Vanir?

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

very very true...it was the later addition from the OT

 

the only thing is, in the NT originally  there was no 'remembrance'. originally it was the literal eating of his literal body and the literal drinking of his literal blood both substantiated by bread. 

same as the Mithra's bull's flesh and blood was consumed literally. Not in remembrance of the bull, but in order to become the bull. If you want to be like Christ you gotta eat him. A mere remembrance gets you nowhere.

 

all of that was already present in the parent religions long before so it was part and parcel from the get-go

 

thats true, most importantly the bread sacrifice to replace the bull/Christ; the preceding religions also sacrificed bread but as a literal bread only, no substantiation . The substantiation was the sea change effected by the new religions

 

 

 

 

A 'cannibal feast '       I read a book once 'Eating God' I think it was called . part of it was how some sacrificial cannibal tribe got taught all this stuff by Jesuit missionaries , some thing clicked in them and then they understood .... 'just we like we do ! '

" No no  .... not like that  !  "      (ummmm, yes, a bit like that   - says Joseph Campbell  )

 

Can you please supply the link to whatever wiki article you cited? I want to read all of it .

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I see words like justice, truth, order and rightfullness is used a lot. I wonder, was the avestan term arta?

 

Hi  NN ... many a times I have answered an obscure question for you ... and now ?

 

Avestan  translations  ?   

 

 

 

 

okay , give me a moment  .....

 

Spoiler

What a taskmaster ! 

 

I am starting to feel like 'Chopper Reid' !  *

 

" Chopper' is an infamous Aussie criminal ... infamous for... well, its not hard to guess . Anyway there was this large tubby gay comedian who did hilarious imitations of Chopper on a comedy show ... a risky business !   he was once asked how Chopper felt about him making fun of him and using his as the bunt of his jokes and imitations . he replied ;

 

* "   Somewhere between he thinks its funny ... and I owe him money for it ." 

 

 

  

 

real Chopper

 

comedian Chopper

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

It appears the correct Avestan usage would be asha via arsha, meaning cosmic order and truth . Old Persian contains a derivative term 'arta' . Several Mitanni names contained the Old Persian term arta. It transforms into Sanskrit r'ta .

 

In the Rig Veda (4.42.1-6),  Varuna declares, "I, Varuna, am the king; first for me were appointed the dignities of asura, the Lord. I let the dripping waters rise up, and through rta I uphold the sky." 

 

For the 'Avestans'  building and maintaining a peaceful society based on law and order was the prime goal . 'arta' , r'ata , etc.  seem similar to ancient Egyptian concept of Ma'at .

 

 Arta is found used in Old Persian Achaemenian names (e.g. Artakhshassa c.450 BCE) and in the Sogdian Avesta as well. Asha is the central ethical concept of the Avesta.
 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Do we know more about this? I have wondered why the devas and asuras are flipped in their respective culture.

 

Yes, a lot more is known about it .  Another large discussion, yes we can have that but its probably better in a separate thread .

 

Is it the same concept as olympians vs titans, or Aesir vs. Vanir?

 

Another large but different discussion .  Thats a part you might better contribute to ? 

 

Edited August 9 by Nungali

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Can you please supply the link to whatever wiki article you cited? I want to read all of it .

sure

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

an example being the Babylonian practice of offering to their gods a number of different kinds of cakes/bread (akalu);^[2] the Hebrew term for showbread, Lehem haPanim, is exactly translated by the Assyrian phrase akal pânu, which refers to the Babylonian cake/bread offerings.^[2]   

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showbread} 

 

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”  And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it.  And he said to them, “This is my blood

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 14%3A22-25%2CLuke 22%3A18-20%2C1 Corinthians 11%3A23-25&version=ESV

 

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The biblical regulations specify that cups of frankincense were to be placed upon the rows of cakes, and the Septuagint, but not the Masoretic Text, states that salt was mixed with the frankincense; the frankincense, which the Septuagint refers to as an anamnesis,  constituted a memorial (azkarah), having been offered upon the altar to God (Leviticus 24:7–9). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showbread#Biblical_references

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

comedian Chopper

Haha well it is fun.

 

Quote

t appears the correct Avestan usage would be asha via arsha, meaning cosmic order and truth . Old Persian contains a derivative term 'arta' .

Good, good, was basically why I was asking. Related terms pop up in many languages, with meanings such as truth, fitting, excelence, order, law.. Wonder how far it goes back. I find the concept attractive.

 

Quote

Yes, a lot more is known about it .  Another large discussion, yes we can have that but its probably better in a separate thread . 

Sure. 
 

Quote

Another large but different discussion .  Thats a part you might better contribute to ? 

Not to much, other than that these two, waring classes of gods, or higher beings, is a strikingly reaccuring theme. Latin, norse, greek, iranian, vedic… I have a suspicion that whoever the good guys are reflects the dominant people in the area. Kind of like mesopitanian city states destroying each others temple in war..

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Haha well it is fun.

 

Good, good, was basically why I was asking. Related terms pop up in many languages, with meanings such as truth, fitting, excelence, order, law.. Wonder how far it goes back. I find the concept attractive.

 

Sure. 
 

Not to much, other than that these two, waring classes of gods, or higher beings, is a strikingly reaccuring theme. Latin, norse, greek, iranian, vedic… I have a suspicion that whoever the good guys are reflects the dominant people in the area. Kind of like mesopitanian city states destroying each others temple in war..

 

 

If we Ask O. Parpola  (   )  *  he will tell us that the original Indo-Iranian   division ( between Gods and that seems a reflection of people's and cultures  within Indo-Iranian ) happened way back  in Yamnaya (if my memory is correct )  .

 

 

 

 

  So the concept didnt just spread south into Central Asia and  thence Iran and India (by that route )  , but all over the places to where ......   (urrrgh ... terms !   )  'Yamnaya influence' spread .

 

 

 

 

*

 

Edited August 11 by Nungali