DDJ Chapter 48

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

為 學 日 益 為 道 日 損

 

Do you see the symmetry?

 

為 學 日 益 為 道 日 損

 

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

To learn,  One accumulates day by day.

To study Tao, One reduces day by day. 

 

Hmm.  In context, you seem to have chosen this verse to discourage learning, but I doubt highly that this is the intention of these words.  

 

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

(WB, translation Chung Yuan Chang)

 

What's the whole verse, as translated by Chung Yuan Chang, please?

 

[Shadow_self]

51 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Do you see the symmetry?

 

為 學 日 益 為 道 日 損

 

 

Hmm.  In context, you seem to have chosen this verse to discourage learning, but I doubt highly that this is the intention of these words.  

 

 

What's the whole verse, as translated by Chung Yuan Chang, please?

 

 

 

Quote

To learn,
One accumulates day by day.
To study Tao,
One reduces day by day.
Through reduction and further reduction
One reaches non-action,
And everything is acted upon.
Therefore, one often wins over the world
Through non-action.
Through action, one may not win over the world

 

DDJ verse 48, practically speaking is discussing the practice of  Zuowang 坐忘 ,better known as Sitting and Forgetting

 

The reason it is discussed in this terms is the human mind is a byproduct of gatherings, So to get past it, and indeed be rid of it (the acquired mind of course)  one needs to "forget"

 

Theres a whole long winded explanation around the various things needed to do so, but ill give an overlly simple explanation without geting into it

 

One needs to stop the mind "doing" ie the accumulation of well, mind stuff 

 

Reversing the senses is important here. This is a literal reversal, with no room for interpretation from the position im discussing it.

 

The senses are what allow the mind to accumulate more, once they are sealed and reversed, it only has whats already there

 

So before you can reduce, you must first cease accumulation, and then you can get to the reducation to reach wu wei

 

This is the general way in which Zuowang works, the forgetting is the reduction mentioned

 

Apologies, but I cant elaborate further without getting into things I shouldnt discuss publicly, but that should be enough to give a little context

 

Hopefully that helps shed some light on the practice side of things  

 

Edited August 12 by Shadow_self

[Daniel]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:30 PM, Shadow_self said:

DDJ verse 48 is discussing the practice of  Zuowang 坐忘 ,better known as Sitting and Forgetting

 

Thank you.  I am familiar with the concept.  The Encyclopedia of Daoism's entry on this was written by Livia Kohn.  Her book on the matter is available for free on archive.org.  The link is posted below for any interested readers:

 

https://archive.org/details/sitting-in-oblivion-daoist-meditation-livia-kohn

 

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

a literal reversal

 

... which requires its oppositional partner:  accumulation?

 

In other words:  I think that the DDJ chapter 48, and quite honestly, the entire DDJ can be misinterpreted is when an individual splits the pair and decides that they prefer one side of the taiji, and the other is evil, super-imposing a Christian paradigm onto something which is not at all Christian.

 

For me, I'm looking at the characters in the verse, not the English translation.   The verse, it seems to me, is emphasizing a simultaneous accumulation-and-reduction.  This is indicated by the repeated characters:  為 and 日 .  This is an on-going action.  Day-to-day the sage is doing both, simultaneously.  This is a literal reversing, not a reversal, but an ongoing action which requires both sides accumulation and reduction.  I think it's tempting to choose one side or the other, but, if an individual does that, they will never achieve their fullest potential.  And this ignores the fact that choosing one side and demonizing the other ( in this case demonizing learning ) is ... Christian not Daoist.

 

Edited August 12 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

10 hours ago, Cobie said:

To learn,  One accumulates day by day.

To study Tao, One reduces day by day. 

 

Hmm.  In context, you seem to have chosen this verse to discourage learning, but I doubt highly that this is the intention of these words.  

Yes, you are quite right! This is not the intention of these words. The hidden message was: If you learn more and more, then you will accumulate more knowledge by the day. Learning the principles of Tao that we will reduce our desires more and more by the day.

Edited August 12 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

on the practice side of things

 

If nothing is accumulated, then there is nothing to reduce?  

If there is nothing to reduce, then there is nothing to practice?

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

... which requires its oppositional partner:  accumulation?

 

See below

 

Quote

In other words:  I think that the DDJ chapter 48, and quite honestly, the entire DDJ can be misinterpreted is when an individual splits the pair and decides that they prefer one side of the taiji, and the other is evil, super-imposing a Christian paradigm onto something which is not at all Christian.

 

From a practice perspective the DDJ is subtractive.

 

It is about reversing course, not oscilattion between two poles. In order to subtract,  something must be there.

 

But if one is accumulating and subtracting, one gets nowhere, and is essentially wheel spinning.

 

Christianity is not really relevant to that process though, im not sure why you decided to bring that up. 

 

To quote my friend @freeform. "If you arent moving towards spirt, you're moving away from it"

 

Hopefully the message resonates better in his words.

 

 

Quote

For me, I'm looking at the characters in the verse, not the English translation.   The verse, it seems to me, is emphasizing a simultaneous accumulation-and-reduction.  This is indicated by the repeated characters:  為 and 日 .  This is an on-going action.  Day-to-day the sage is doing both, simultaneously.  This is a literal reversing, not a reversal, but an ongoing action which requires both sides accumulation and reduction.  I think it's tempting to choose one side or the other, but, if an individual does that, they will never achieve their fullest potential.  And this ignores the fact that choosing one side and demonizing the other ( in this case demonizing learning ) is ... Christian not Daoist.

 

 

Im sorry, but I think you may have misunderstood what a sage (shengren) is, practically speaking

 

Here are some markers of that attainment

 

• They have freed their consciousness from the acquired mind
• Have freed the virtuous De from deep within them
• Emotional states of division are no longer a part of their being.
• They are free from the development of acquired states
• They are aware of the profound empty state of reality
• They live in a state of Wuji a lot of the time.

In this case, the sage is definately not doing both

 

 Im not sure what your definition is based upon?

 

But within the lineages, the understanding of what a sage is practically speaking is as above. This would be especially true of lineages who have several people documented to have attained this state, and the ones beyond it.

 

A sage moves beyond the cyclical actions you discuss, thats the point of the practice really

 

I would appreciate if you would not invoke Christianity here. It is not relevant.

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

If nothing is accumulated, then there is nothing to reduce?  

 

Things are accumulated so they need to be reduced. We aim to reduce, not accumulate via the practice

 

Constant accumulation with no forgetting is the state of most people.  

 

Simultaneous accumulation and reduction would be going nowhere. You can liken it to jogging on the spot

 

Reduction without accumulation is the state that the practice is trying to bring one towards, as laid out above

 

Quote

If there is nothing to reduce, then there is nothing to practice?

 

There are states beyond Shengren (Sage)

 

Zhenren (Transcended being, if you would)  and the various Xian (Immortal) attainments...and beyond

 

These definately are off limits for discussion from my end.

 

Anyway, I hope that helps  

 

II'll refrain from adding further. at this point  I was just pointing towards an important point regards Zuowang that the DDJ is referring to in verse 48 , for those who are interested

Edited August 12 by Shadow_self

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Emotional states of division are no longer a part of their being.

 

Interesting.

 

16 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

"If you aren't moving towards spirt, you're moving away from it"

 

That sounds like a state of division to me.

 

17 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

But if one is accumulating and subtracting, one gets nowhere, and is essentially wheel spinning.

 

"getting nowhere" is the desired outcome in this chapter.

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

One reaches non-action,
And everything is acted upon.

 

^^ Getting Nowhere ^^

 

[Daniel]

32 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Things are accumulated so they need to be reduced. We aim to reduce, not accumulate via the practice

 

Reduced.

 

What if the reduction isn't what is conventionally considered a reduction?  Inclusion is a form of reduction.  The more that is included, the more the category expands, but the contrast is reduced.  Imagine it like colors.  In order to get to brilliant white, keep including more and more and more and more.  The increasing produces a reduction.  The same is true for pure black.  In order to get to pure black, keep excluding more and more and more and more.  Either way the number of colors are increasing.  The valence is irrelevant.  The reduction is produced by inclusion or exclusion by steadily increasing orders of magnitude.

 

This is category theory.  The more that are included in a category, the number of categories is reduced.  Accumulating and reducing simultaneously naturally produces a singularity.  And this is precisely what the the DDJ has in the previous chapter 47 leading up to this one.  The sage doesn't need to go anywhere, because they have mastered the art of "getting nowhere" which takes an individual everywhere, simultaneously.

 

"Without going outside his door, one understands (all that takes place) under the sky; without looking out from his window, one sees the Dao of Heaven. The farther that one goes out (from himself), the less he knows.
Therefore the sages got their knowledge without travelling; gave their (right) names to things without seeing them; and accomplished their ends without any purpose of doing so."

 

 

Edited August 12 by Daniel

[Cobie]

moved to https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/56088-ddj-chapter-48/?do=findComment&comment=1037833

 

Edited August 13 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

DDJ Ch 20, “ Eliminate learning and you will have no distress.” https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks2.html

 

Cherry picking.

[Shadow_self]

20 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Interesting.

 

Yes. 

 

Quote

 

That sounds like a state of division to me.

 

The point there was the path towards spirit goes in one direction, Subtraction

 

You spend your life building up an acquired self (moving away from sprit, or addition) , and then you tear it down basically (subtraction)

 

Very crude, but sit on it for a while

 

Quote

"getting nowhere" is the desired outcome in this chapter.

 

Aha see you are going to make me speak on something im not supposed to. You're going to get me in trouble  

 

Ok final piece, then im done.

 

See below

 

Quote

^^ Getting Nowhere ^^

 

Wu Wei is non doing.

 

So if you recall what I said about sealing and reversing the senses, which isnt "nowhere. Its a point of non accumulation.

 

Then the mind can only work with what is there, meaning eventually you can reach a state of wu wei, or non doing with the mind too

 

At that point, the senses (all six) can be said to be sealed

 

When you stop the mind or then the  "everything that is acted upon" begins

 

The everything that is worked on is related to whats already left.

 

Starting to undo (Reverse accumulation, which is to subtract)  the mind (and in some respects, some of the things that keep us in the cycle of reincarnation)

 

Im shutting up now @Daniel !!! No more.  

 

Ive already been generous here  You'll need to ponder over the rest im afraid.

 

Peace friend  

Edited August 12 by Shadow_self

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

DDJ Ch 20, “ Eliminate learning and you will have no distress.” https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks2.html

 

What sort of learning?  DDJ 20 when it is quoted in total does not discourage all learning.

When we renounce learning we have no troubles.
The (ready) 'yes,' and (flattering) 'yea;'
Small is the difference they display.
But mark their issues, good and ill;
What space the gulf between shall fill?
What all men fear is indeed to be feared; but how wide and without end is the range of questions (asking to be discussed)! The multitude of men look satisfied and pleased; as if enjoying a full banquet, as if mounted on a tower in spring. I alone seem listless and still, my desires having as yet given no indication of their presence. I am like an infant which has not yet smiled. I look dejected and forlorn, as if I had no home to go to. The multitude of men all have enough and to spare. I alone seem to have lost everything. My mind is that of a stupid man; I am in a state of chaos. Ordinary men look bright and intelligent, while I alone seem to be benighted. They look full of discrimination, while I alone am dull and confused. I seem to be carried about as on the sea, drifting as if I had nowhere to rest. All men have their spheres of action, while I alone seem dull and incapable, like a rude borderer. (Thus) I alone am different from other men, but I value the nursing-mother (the Dao).

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Im shutting up now @Daniel !!! No more.  

 

[Daniel]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:54 PM, Shadow_self said:

The point there was the path towards spirit goes in one direction

 

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Daniel]

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

So if you recall what I said about sealing and reversing the senses, which isnt "nowhere. Its a point of non accumulation.

 

What I'm trying to say is:

 

Reversing is not a point.  Reversing is an action.  It would be better written, imo, this way:

 

"sealing and reversing the senses is an action of shedding ( the opposite of accumulating )."

 

The natural consequence of shedding is having an open mind and heart.  This cannot occur if the individual is rigid.  They need to be flexible in order to have an open mind.  Declaring that there is only one way is rigid.  That won't work.

 

Edited August 12 by Daniel

[Daniel]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:16 PM, Shadow_self said:

Christianity is not really relevant to that process though, im not sure why you decided to bring that up.

 

Declaring that there is only one way is Christian.  Daoism is the way which includes all ways and therefore is not a way at all.  It's the no-way way.

 

In the west, most individuals are raised in a Christian cultural context which is one-sided, dominant, and demonizes the other side.  People here in the west, even if they're not identifying as Christian seem to continue practicing it, because they aren't aware of what Christianity is or what Christian practice is fundamentally.  It's psychological splitting.

 

 

 

Daoism doesn't do that.  Christianity does that.

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Cobie]

DDJ Ch.:

18 “When knowledge and wisdom appear, it is then that there is great hypocrisy;” (MWD)

19 “Eliminate sageliness, throw away knowledge, And the people will benefit a hundredfold. (MWD)

20 “Eliminate learning and you will have no distress.” (Guodian)

 

MWD https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks.html 

Guodian https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks2.html

 

 

Edited August 13 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

What I'm trying to say is:

 

Reversing is not a point.  Reversing is an action.  It would be better written, imo, this way:

 

"sealing and reversing the senses is an action of shedding ( the opposite of accumulating )."

 

It is at the point of non accumulation that the senses are reversed/sealed so this is what I referring to  

 

In other words, at this point, external data stops accumulating. The corporeal aspect of our soul is then in a bit of a troublesome situation

 

Read @freeform post history on the Hun and Po to understand more.

 

 Im at the line of what I can write (Im being very serious now). Like I said, ive been generous

[Cobie]

“Your life has a limit, but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no limit, you will be in danger.”

― Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

Edited August 13 by Cobie

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

“Your life has a limit, but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no limit, you will be in danger.”

― Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

Exactly.  It cannot be known, but it can be understood.

 

Learning increases understanding.

 

BTW:  The Pentecostal fire is in Acts 2:1-3.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

It is at the point of non accumulation that the senses are reversed/sealed so this is what I referring to

 

 

Got it.  Thank you.

Edited August 13 by Daniel

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Declaring that there is only one way is Christian.  Daoism is the way which includes all ways and therefore is not a way at all.  It's the no-way way.

 

In the west, most individuals are raised in a Christian cultural context which is one-sided, dominant, and demonizes the other side.  People here in the west, even if they're not identifying as Christian seem to continue practicing it, because they aren't aware of what Christianity is or what Christian practice is fundamentally.  It's psychological splitting.

 

 

Daoism doesn't do that.  Christianity does that.

 

 

 

The discussion I brought forward pertains to mechanics, which as I originally pointed out, is unrelated to splitting, or christianity, or cultural context

 

I am explaining to you that the methods and teachings in the Daodejing is referring to a specific way, yes. It is the path of subtraction.

 

Daoism contains mainy sects, lineages, practices etc. But the teachings of the DDJ are actually a road to becoming a shengren or sage. Thats why they were recorded

 

Thats really not an interpretive thing. from a practice perspective 

 

Its just not accessile to the public being totally honest. I suspect that might change in the future, but as of now, not so much

 

Ive actually explained some of the mechanics above.

 

But to save you more time @freeform posted some here, and Ill elaborate, only because I'd like you to understand whats going on there (hoping if I keep tagging and referencing his posts he'll show up, kind of like Candyman haha)

 

Quote

On a deeper level the Po is what keeps you incarnate in our physical world. It’s what allows our soul to grow and transform. The Hun is what keeps an essential aspect of you intact in between lifetimes… one is the earthly aspect of Soul and the other is the heavenly aspect of Soul…

 

 

Quote

The Hun and the Po are the two aspects of one’s soul… The Po is the temporary, earthly aspect that is always keen on sensory experience… on ownership… control of the physical… creation of an identity.

 

But this takes away from the immortal aspect of the soul which is hiding within the Hun… and so by following the whims of the Po, people become ensnared by their senses and their attachment to self.

 

The process of ‘sealing the senses’ is an essential aspect of the early foundation for alchemical training. So doing the opposite… stimulating the senses and the desires and one’s sense of self - this basically creates one of the biggest ‘leakages’ for qi.

 

 

What you can take from the above, is there is a very specific manner in which we need to alter the relationship between the Hun and Po

 

Its the Po that keeps us anchored into form,. One of the mechanics it  does so by, is  accumulating  experience, preference and bias via the senses

 

This is what needs to stop at a basic level, why?

 

Because all the senses are produced by the Po itself. It that which keeps us incarnating, and the "stuff" it accumaltes is the weight of karma basically. At the point of death, before the Po returns to the Earth, it transfers the karmic seeds into the Hun, life to life. So the wheel keeps going

 

This is why "learning" is a problem. Just imagine trying to  learn without any of your senses?

 

This means, you also cant "learn"  in that way without  distortion or bias or preference, hence, you cant learn anything that wont keep the loop  of reincarnation going to some degree. It will always be distorted by the Po, as it is always processed through it, in a manner of speaking

 

The truth is, as you start to alter the relationship between the Hun and Po , and approach the  deeper aspects of the Hun, various forms of knowing arise. Its not a matter of learning anymore. It wont be needed

 

At the depeest level of accessing the Hun, you basically become omniscient. But thats a rare thing

 

The path in the daodejing is, in one crude manner of speaking,  about unlearning/ the things the Po accumulates, which gives rise to other things in its place. But there is much more. I just cant go into it all. Sorry This will have to do. I just pushed it a bit further because freeform already went there, so its techincally public (just not organised in a coherent way)

 

So, I hope this all makes sense.

 

his is the basis of verse 48, and I hope it sheds a little more light on it

 

Now im going to bed, before I get struck by lightning or something. Farewell  

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

This will have to do

 

It's perfect.  Thank you.  I'll read and review what you've brought.  If I have questions, I'll send you a message.  My objections have all been cleared.  

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Now im going to bed, before I get struck by lightning or something. Farewell  

 

God Forbid, Amein v'Amein.