DDJ Chapter 48

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

“Your life has a limit, but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no limit, you will be in danger.”

― Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

it is a more or less relevant quote but not quite. You see, DDJ48 has been mistranslated as to be about increasing the learning or knowledge thats why ppl mistake it to be about some kind of neigong;)

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

DDJ verse 48, practically speaking is discussing the practice of  Zuowang 坐忘 ,better known as Sitting and Forgetting

which of course it is not. It is neither about learning something new nor forgetting something old,  because Guodian says

学者日益，为道者日损。损之或损，以至亡为也，亡为而亡不为。

it is about two kinds of rulers 

- 学者 those who rule the Underheaven with learning, meaning they rule through an  ever increasing administrative interference; 

- and 为道者 those who rule by 'doing the dao' meaning they rule by intentionally decreasing the administrative interference until there is a total non-doing 至亡为. Thats how the latter kind of rulers 'gets the Underheaven' 取天下.

 

(gosh those neigongers have me in stitches every time)

 

 

Edited August 13 by Taoist Texts

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is a more or less relevant quote but not quite. You see, DDJ48 has been mistranslated as to be about increasing the learning or knowledge thats why ppl mistake it to be about some kind of neigong;)

which of course it is not. It is neither about learning something new nor forgetting something old,  because Guodian says

学者日益，为道者日损。损之或损，以至亡为也，亡为而亡不为。

it is about two kinds of rulers 

- 学者 those who rule the Underheaven with learning, meaning they rule through an  ever increasing administrative interference; 

- and 为道者 those who rule by 'doing the dao' meaning they rule by intentionally decreasing the administrative interference until there is a total non-doing 至亡为. Thats how the latter kind of rulers 'gets the Underheaven' 取天下.

 

(gosh those neigongers have me in stitches every time)

 

 

 

Well  you dont "do the dao" in the context of sitting and forgetting. Sitting and forgetting is something that arises when a whole host of conditions are put in place first. 

 

You cant practice it without first sealing the senses for example

 

You are free to disagree with me @Taoist Texts, I dont mind  

 

However, I do have a question for you given you do position yourself as well versed and attained regards neidan. 

 

Do you remember this conversation?

 

 

 

Could you kindly elaborate 

 

Why the confusion regards  the neidan phenomena freeform was talking about in this thread?

 

Edited August 13 by Shadow_self

[Sanity Check]

14 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

One needs to stop the mind "doing" ie the accumulation of well, mind stuff 

 

Reversing the senses is important here. This is a literal reversal, with no room for interpretation from the position im discussing it.

 

The senses are what allow the mind to accumulate more, once they are sealed and reversed, it only has whats already there

 

So before you can reduce, you must first cease accumulation, and then you can get to the reducation to reach wu wei

 

This is the general way in which Zuowang works, the forgetting is the reduction mentioned

 

 

 

 

Sounds like windows HDD disk defragmentation.

 

The flow of data being written to HDD ceases.

 

The flow of data to HDD is reversed.

 

Rather than data being written to HDD.

 

Data is removed from HDD (forgotten).

 

Reversal of the senses.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defragmentation

Edited August 13 by Sanity Check

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Well  you dont "do the dao" in the context of sitting and forgetting

Sima says you should

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Could you kindly elaborate  Why the confusion regards  the neidan phenomena freeform was talking about in this thread?

good question. simply put it is because no one of the conversants understands what is  neidan . no one of the neidan seminar-sellers including those on this forum knows what is neidan. Because neidan means 'internal elixir' which is a very specific tangible thing. and none of them produced the neidan thing. so they do and teach fake neidan. a neidan without the neidan. and fakery can be confusing. when people talk about a thing they have no clue about confusion rises. did i answer your question?

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Sima says you should

 

Can you add to the discussion by explaining  how to forget?

 

I already explained some of the things leading up to it, but like  I mentioned im at the limits of what I can say, so you may be able to add to peoples understanding here

 

Quote

good question. simply put it is because no one of the conversants understands what is  neidan . no one of the neidan seminar-sellers including those on this forum knows what is neidan. Because neidan means 'internal elixir' which is a very specific tangible thing. and none of them produced the neidan thing. so they do and teach fake neidan. a neidan without the neidan. and fakery can be confusing. when people talk about a thing they have no clue about confusion rises.

 

It seems to me like @freeform knew  what he was talking about, and  @awaken  figured it out. as well

 

It looked to me to you were the one finding it confusing  where "entering the white room" is concerned.

 

I could totally  be wrong, but thats just how im reading it from my own position at least. Feel free to correct me

 

Would you be open to discuss it now though ? 

 

Freeform did mention there is one other  member of this board who was able to discuss that state in depth (denoting direct experience of it) , so im hopeful they'd be able to add to the discussion too

 

Quote

did i answer your question?

 

Not exactly, but elaborating on the above would be very helpful

 

Also just to add. I dont think freeform or awaken are seminar sellers. I dont know anyone on the forum selling neidan seminars. A few neigong teachers maybe., Not neidan as I understand it at least.

 

In any event, can we not go there. I am just looking for a practitioners discussion really. No need to bash anyone here.

Edited August 13 by Shadow_self

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You cant practice it without first sealing the senses for example

 

I disagree.  And I'm not sure how anyone can be so certain about a negative assertion of this magnitude. 

 

?  Isn't it more accurately written:  "I don't know how it can be practiced without first sealing the senses."  ?  

[Taoist Texts]

37 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Can you add to the discussion by explaining  how to forget?

I already explained some of the things leading up to it, but like  I mentioned im at the limits of what I can say, so you may be able to add to peoples understanding here

well i will explain it to you since you ask;) no other peoples is asking me to: forgetting is done in the same way as catnapping. we get tired, sit back on a couch, put the legs up, think pleasant thoughts, relax, put the mind on the body and how comfy it is,  and go into half-napping but trying to keep the eyes half-open. with the time, if you do everything right, you will feel some pleasant qi, get refreshed and renewed at the end of the session. thats all there is to it. 

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 "entering the white room" is concerned.Would you be open to discuss it now though ? 

 

Sure why not. White born in an room is an expression from Zhuang-zi  虚室生白  Look at that aperture (left in the wall); the empty apartment is filled with light through it,  originally it had nothing to do with neidan, but the real chinese neidanists have borrowed it to describe the white light seen when something called the lead is produced. Thats all there is as to what it is. How to get it in a proper way is a different issue;)

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Not exactly, but elaborating on the above would be very helpful

gotta ask concretely;)

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

It seems to me like @freeform knew  what he was talking about, and  @awaken  figured it out. as well

i was very sympathetic to both of them, tried to warn them. i failed. but i tried.

[Master Logray]

I prefer to use the word Shedding instead of reduction/reducing.   It is closer to the meaning of "損"，which generally also has a meaning of losing/damage too.   The process is Shedding, while the end result is the reduction of something.  To achieve the Tao, we better to shed the knowledge, wisdom, smartness, calculations as in other DDJ chapters mentioned above.   Peeling off layers and layers of external coatings, then we can see the within the true meaning the real world.  It is a continuous process. 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

It seems to me like @freeform knew  what he was talking about,

 

Good.  See below:  ( LINK )

 

 

[Daniel]

8 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I prefer to use the word Shedding instead of reduction/reducing

 

Shedding

 

15 hours ago, Daniel said:

sealing and reversing the senses is an action of shedding ( the opposite of accumulating )

 

shedding

 

9 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

It is a continuous process. 

 

a continuous process

 

17 hours ago, Daniel said:

This is a literal reversing, not a reversal, but an ongoing action

 

an ongoing action

 

---

 

[Shadow_self]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well i will explain it to you since you ask;) no other peoples is asking me to: forgetting is done in the same way as catnapping. we get tired, sit back on a couch, put the legs up, think pleasant thoughts, relax, put the mind on the body and how comfy it is,  and go into half-napping but trying to keep the eyes half-open. with the time, if you do everything right, you will feel some pleasant qi, get refreshed and renewed at the end of the session. thats all there is to it. 

 

We have different understandings of what this means then  

 

Quote

 

Sure why not. White born in an room is an expression from Zhuang-zi  虚室生白  Look at that aperture (left in the wall); the empty apartment is filled with light through it,  originally it had nothing to do with neidan, but the real chinese neidanists have borrowed it to describe the white light seen when something called the lead is produced. Thats all there is as to what it is. How to get it in a proper way is a different issue;)

 

#1 What exactly do you mean by lead in this case? Can you point it out on the below diagram

 

 

Quote

gotta ask concretely;)

 

I can do that

 

Do you have anything to say regards the Hun, Po, Zhi, Shen and Yi and the white room? 

 

Quote

i was very sympathetic to both of them, tried to warn them. i failed. but i tried.

 

Sorry Im not following here. What exactly were you trying to warn them about?

 

Edited August 13 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

39 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Good.  See below:  ( LINK )

 

 

 

I believe here, he is discussing altering the relationship  the Hun and Po have to one another through the reversal of the alchemical wu xing

 

Its not the same as allowing the po to accumulate. In fact it transforms its mode of operation

 

This is done during the state of Zuowang, which is topical given the verse in question

[Taoist Texts]

21 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

#1 What exactly do you mean by lead in this case? Can you point it out on the below diagram

its the black lead in the left bottom corner

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Do you have anything to say regards the Hun, Po, Zhi, Shen and Yi and the white room? 

sure i have, i am a pro. first of all, (as i pointed earlier) there is no white room. there is 'white born in empty room'. Zhi and Yi are just different names for the spirit Shen. They dont have any significance on their own. Ditto about Hun and Po, they are just different names for Xing and Ming. Now when Xing merges with Ming the solid line of yang in the black lead Kan shines through as white light - meaning 'white is born'. empty room means a thought-free mind.

 

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

What exactly were you trying to warn them about?

i will PM you

[Daniel]

On 8/13/2024 at 8:36 AM, Shadow_self said:

This is done during the state of Zuowang, which is topical given the verse in question

 

Good.  The state of Zuowang.  Keep that in mind, please.

 

On 8/13/2024 at 8:12 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

 

 

 

Now let's refer to the book by Livia Kohn:  Sitting in Oblivion - The Heart of Daoist Meditation.  Livia Kohn is the author of the entry on Zuowang in the Encyclopedia of Daoism.

 

Page 102:

 

 

 

Both gold and cinnabar simultaneously not one or the other.

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

allowing the po to accumulate

 

Are you assuming that all "learning" is accumulating po?  If so, why?

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Good.  The state of Zuowang.  Keep that in mind, please.

 

 

Now let's refer to the book by Livia Kohn:  Sitting in Oblivion - The Heart of Daoist Meditation.  Livia Kohn is the author of the entry on Zuowang in the Encyclopedia of Daoism.

 

Page 102:

 

 

 

Both gold and cinnabar simultaneously not one or the other.

 

I checked that reference that Livia Kohn made and nowhere does it say that.  I am unsurprised by her  poor scholarship though. She is in my opinion one of the most error ridden authors on all things neidan.

 

To clear up: True Gold (The Ming Alchemical Agent) is one of the ingredients used to form the Elixir (Chunyang, or Cinnabar). The other is True Silver (Xing agent) 

 

You cant "use both" but in her case, the original reference on pagr 378 is also pointing out a notion that Ge Gulong made, which was that Wu Yun may be situated halfway between neidan and waidan (meaning "using" cinnabar and gold, quite literally the physcial substances" 

 

"Vermilion Cinnabar" is also a bad translation, what Predagio means is "Vermillion sand"

 

Mercury in the vermilion = True Mercury = True Yin within yang

 

Cinnabar = Original Spirit, called so becaues of the red connotation, which is the actual colour of the Pill (Elixir)

 

A suggestion i often find helpful is not to depend on authors if you really want to understand this topic deeply.

 

Too many misunderstanings and a lack of realization that context is key. The use heuristsics too often,a nd as a result join dots

 

Neidan texts should be read in isolation tbh. You need to establish they are talking about the same thing before you assert it. to be so

 

Case in point. Yellow Court means several different things, context dependant  

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Are you assuming that all "learning" is accumulating po?  If so, why?

 

I am simply saying to you that all empirical learning happens via the senses, thus it is the Po accumulating

 

No Po = No senses

 

Po = information aquired by the senses Hun - things known from a more "congenital" source

 

You dont accumulate Po, the Po accumulates

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I checked that reference that Livia Kohn made and nowhere does it say that.  I am unsurprised by her  poor scholarship though. She is in my opinion one of the most error ridden authors on all things neidan.

 

Wow.  OK.  Good to know.  Can you post a link to the reference?

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

No Po = No senses

 

Therefore, without Po, all that's left is imagination?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Hun - things known from a more "congenital" source

 

So.  How does a person filter out truth from fiction without Po and only Hun?

[Shadow_self]

50 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Wow.  OK.  Good to know.  Can you post a link to the reference?

 

No, because the book isnt online to read. Heres a screenshot of the page in question

 

 

In fact, the word cinnabar isnt even used in the pages  she quoted.

 

Livia disappoints me frequently. Her rendition of the Zhong Lu texts was disappointing also

 

47 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Therefore, without Po, all that's left is imagination?

 

Not the case  

 

47 minutes ago, Daniel said:

So.  How does a person filter out truth from fiction without Po and only Hun?

 

Nobody said we are getting rid of the Po, we are changing how it interacts with the other four agents (Hun, Shen, Zhi and Yi)

 

Recall what was mentioned earlier It is normally functioning in a way that keeps us in the reincarnation cycle

 

However, its also the means by which our soul grows and transforms, if we can get the bloody thing to work the way it we need it to

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is a more or less relevant quote but not quite. You see, DDJ48 has been mistranslated as to be about increasing the learning or knowledge thats why ppl mistake it to be about some kind of neigong;)

which of course it is not. It is neither about learning something new nor forgetting something old,  because Guodian says

学者日益，为道者日损。损之或损，以至亡为也，亡为而亡不为。

it is about two kinds of rulers 

- 学者 those who rule the Underheaven with learning, meaning they rule through an  ever increasing administrative interference; 

- and 为道者 those who rule by 'doing the dao' meaning they rule by intentionally decreasing the administrative interference until there is a total non-doing 至亡为. Thats how the latter kind of rulers 'gets the Underheaven' 取天下.

 

(gosh those neigongers have me in stitches every time)

 

 

 

That alone is enough to turn me towards  ' doing the dao'

 

[Daniel]

On 8/13/2024 at 6:11 PM, Shadow_self said:

No, because the book isnt online to read.

 

I just ordered it.  It'll be here in a week, but I'm traveling the last part of August.

 

On 8/13/2024 at 6:11 PM, Shadow_self said:

Heres a screenshot of the page in question

 

Is this what you're looking at?

 

Ja De Meyer 2006?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

I just ordered it.  It'll be here in a week, but I'm traveling the last part of August.

 

 

Is this what you're looking at?

 

Ja De Meyer 2006?

 

 

 

 

Yes thats where she took the notion from, I could have just posted the other pages though  Its not a great book. Theres far better texts worth reading 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

without Po, all that's left is imagination

 

55 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Not the case 

 

I hear you, but, without the sensory feedback how does one distinguish between dreaming or not?  Between delusional and not?  Between hallucinating and not?

 

55 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Nobody said we are getting rid of the Po, we are changing how it interacts with the other four agents (Hun, Shen, Zhi and Yi)

 

To me, it's the same problem.  It sounds like an error prone technique.  The human animal has evolved such that the sensory feedback is highly accurate.  While I acknowledge that bias, preference, and especially expectation, are shaping the interpretation of sensory feedback, at the same time I cannot ignore that messing with it, for lack of better words, without a known good reliable credible replacement, fail-over technique, is trading one problem for a whole host of others. 

 

"The devil you know is better, than the devil you don't know?"

 

And since I've experienced the same thing without doing the reversing of the senses, I'm needing a bit more incentive and a lot more information.  But that's me.  Just me.

 

55 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Recall what was mentioned earlier It is normally functioning in a way that keeps us in the reincarnation cycle

 

Yes.  I like life.  I'm perfectly happy returning, if that's my destiny.  Especially if I lay a nice foundation for my return.

 

Aren't the immortals often written about as angry and frustrated with their lack of a physical body?  The malicious ones are described insistent on finding a physical host?  I have always been confused by the the desire for humans to escape this bountiful existence if we can co-exist in both realms... simultaneously.

 

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

Theres far better texts worth reading 

 

... all teasing, no pleasing?

 

Which book or books would you recommend for Zuowang?  Something advanced?