DDJ Chapter 48

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

but sure, thanks, here is the full animation. it shows the monk internalizing the symbolic shining lotus bud not externalizing it for all to see. 

it is the same kind of buddhist graphics as leading the bull or the elephant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

exactly. it is common

 

 

Unfortunately , no, thats  not the full set of images, and thats a cut from a larger piece. 

 

You are right in one way  though so thats good.   "Something" is internalized,  but it is accompanied by externalizing phenomena for a period

 

Both images are referring to "something" at that point above the head. 

 

That "something" externalizes in certain lines of Tantric Theravada at a  point in the practice

 

It is not a permanent thing, but you are supposed to be away from public when it happens until you can get it under control

 

Theres been a few instances where thats not been the case -  I mentioned one earlier. Im just not going to name who out of respect

 

However, It happens in Daoist lines too. The point itself  has a name, as does the emerging phenomena

 

If I understand you correctly -  you  do not know about it, cannot name it, and have not experienced it.  It seems  you dont even believe it exists

 

This is both puzzling and  sadly,  somewhat indicatory to me at least if the case. 

Edited August 16 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

yes looks like you do

 

Not at all my friend    I know better at this stage  

 

However, could it be  the case that you might be proving something to others unintentionally?

[Master Logray]

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, there is no such thing

there is no externally emitting light visible to others in neidan. its a fantasy. See? I gave you straight, concrete, practical answer. But of course, i cannot tell what develops and follows a fantasy;)

 

 

I read the few lines written by Freeform again.  I think he really mean he emitting light and being seen by others.  BUT it is the "people around me" that he didn't define very clearly.   I think those most likely were his peers or teachers of a certain level.  These "people" can view the light or aura or whatever surrounding a body, Freeform or not.  It is not common among common people but common among adepts.

 

In all the Taoist texts I read, I can't recall development of light emitting ability that can be observed by common people.   I did read a book that the writer claims his master can emanate light during deep meditation.    It is difficult to gauge as most of the meditators sit alone.  While they may not go so deep during a group setting.   Anyway Taoist alchemist and Buddhist always regards such abilities, ,and seeing light as well, as trivial or distraction or even harmful in reaching the final goal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Master Logray

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

This is just a mental construct.

 

It's not just a mental construct, because I've experienced it, and others have experienced it.  Until now, I had not known there was a Chinese school of thought which adopted / discovered the same principles.

 

 

Quote

But if you find use or comfort in it, that is fine. In my path I have no use for it, but that is what floats my boat, not yours.

 

Comfort?  I appreciate it.  I appreciate having a model, yes a construct, which is accurate and useful.  Who wouldn't?

 

Quote

Jin dan is an interesting subject. 

Moreso when one move beyond the metaphorical language and get down to the actual practice. 

 

Agreed.  In addition, after the "actual practice", the same principles can be applied all day, any time, any where,  even in one's sleep.  24/7 cultivation.  

 

Edited August 16 by Daniel

[Shadow_self]

21 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

I read the few lines written by Freeform again.  I think he really mean he emitting light and being seen by others.  BUT it is the "people around me" that he didn't define very clearly.   I think those most likely were his peers or teachers of a certain level.  These "people" can view the light or aura or whatever surrounding a body, Freeform or not.  It is not common among common people but common among adepts.

 

The light he is talking about -  It is visible to anyone, even common lay people.

 

If i  randomly grabbed somebody off the street and brought them into a room while this phenomena was occuring, they would be able to see it just as clearly as I could (someone with  a degree of training) 

 

Quote

In all the Taoist texts I read, I can't recall development of light emitting ability that can be observed by common people.   I did read a book that the writer claims his master can emanate light during deep meditation.    It is difficult to gauge as most of the meditators sit alone.  While they may not go so deep during a group setting. 

 

This phenomena, actually, it begins happening spontaneously until a degree of control is gained. That can be during practice, or taking a walk, as I mentioned it can be very spontaneous

 

Eventually it stops, but during the phase from when it begins, until it stabilizes, you are supposed to be in retreat away from society for those reasons

 

Quote

  Anyway Taoist alchemist and Buddhist always regards such abilities, ,and seeing light as well, as trivial or distraction or even harmful in reaching the final goal.

 

Lights (nimitta)  are very important in certain lines of alchemical buddhism

 

There are some that are total distractions and annoyances yes, but there are others that are critically important and the markers, and in some cases, means for further development

 

The ones im talking about are also not imagined or visualized , they must arise of their own accord when the practice conditions are correct

 

Im kind of unable to say anymore there, just that they can be very important

Edited August 16 by Shadow_self

[Forestgreen]

20 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 I appreciate it.  I appreciate having a model, yes a construct, which is accurate and useful.  

If you had a model which is highly abstract, metaphorical, and could be used on very different and unrelated subjects with quite a few possible ways of interpretation and a model which is less abstract and focused on the process engaged with, which would you choose? 

 

 

The highly abstract because it comes with a sense that things are interrelated, or the less abstract because it doesn't need that extra step of interpretation? 

 

Edited August 16 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Wilhelm]

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

I would like to stop talking about them personally  because it is not nice to do so behind their backs.

That's nice of you

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am serious on that matter. i do believe thats what happened to them. that said i never intended to belabor the issue if not asked about it. i have nothing to add about this publicly. 

Fair enough.  No crime against being silly.

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Master Logray said:

These "people" can view the light or aura or whatever surrounding a body, Freeform or not.  It is not common among common people but common among adepts.

 

For common people, it is most likely perceived as a feeling in the heart, not an aura or a light which can be seen.

 

7 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I think he really mean he emitting light and being seen by others.

 

Not literal "light".

 

7 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I read the few lines written by Freeform again

 

I read everything Freeform wrote in the thread which was brought by Shadow_Self.  Freeform is describing "divine acceptance" which he has trained himself to emulate and adopt.  It's an open-"mind" and an open-"heart" simultaneously receiving vitality from within which naturally "shines" outward.  "Shines" is in quotes because it is not literal light.  "Mind" and "heart" are also in quotes because it is the metaphorical mind and heart.

 

The only controversy in what I wrote above is the word "receiving".  Some may object to this word choice if they need to envision the vitality originating from within themself.  Perhaps that is important for them, I do not find that an obstacle.  Regardless of where the vitality is coming from, the individual's metaphorical heart-and-mind is still receiving vitality which is then propagated throughout the body and the soul.

 

There is an innate immaterial connection among almost all human beings.  Psychopaths, sociopaths, some extreme narcissists, etc are excluded.  This is a heart-to-heart connection.  At risk of over-simplification, it's empathy, more or less.  When almost any individual encounters another who is naturally accepting, and open minded, relaxed, confident, this makes an impression on their "heart".  Technically it is the opposite of an impression.  It's drawing out the impressions made previously over the course of time and tragedy, smoothing and soothing and comforting.  Conversely, when this cool, calm, and collected individual flips to a different mode (rigid-flexible) they can "crack like a whip".  That leaves a different sort of impression.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

However, could it be  the case that you might be proving something to others unintentionally?

yes, that i do not live in a fantasy world

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

If I understand you correctly -  you  do not know about it, cannot name it, and have not experienced it. 

that is correct. i know it is a fantasy, i name it a fantasy, and i experienced many fantasies on this forum

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

It seems  you dont even believe it exists

yes i know it does not exist. thats why i am done with the fantastic light-bulb guy subject. thanks for the chat;)

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

Anyway Taoist alchemist and Buddhist always regards such abilities,..., as trivial or distraction or even harmful in reaching the final goal.

i tried a couple of times to explain that, quite the opposite, the traditional practicers always regard such real siddhis (real means real only to the practicer himself)  as the sole path to the final goal, which is salvation. but it did not resonate;) so i stopped trying. oops i did it again! ok this is the last time i swear to god

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

For common people, it is most likely perceived as a feeling in the heart, not an aura or a light which can be seen.

 

 

Not literal "light".

 

 

I read everything Freeform wrote in the thread which was brought by Shadow_Self.  Freeform is describing "divine acceptance" which he has trained himself to emulate and adopt.  It's an open-"mind" and an open-"heart" simultaneously receiving vitality from within which naturally "shines" outward.  "Shines" is in quotes because it is not literal light.  "Mind" and "heart" are also in quotes because it is the metaphorical mind and heart.

 

The only controversy in what I wrote above is the word "receiving".  Some may object to this word choice if they need to envision the vitality originating from within themself.  Perhaps that is important for them, I do not find that an obstacle.  Regardless of where the vitality is coming from, the individual's metaphorical heart-and-mind is still receiving vitality which is then propagated throughout the body and the soul.

 

There is an innate immaterial connection among almost all human beings.  Psychopaths, sociopaths, some extreme narcissists, etc are excluded.  This is a heart-to-heart connection.  At risk of over-simplification, it's empathy, more or less.  When almost any individual encounters another who is naturally accepting, and open minded, relaxed, confident, this makes an impression on their "heart".  Technically it is the opposite of an impression.  It's drawing out the impressions made previously over the course of time and tragedy, smoothing and soothing and comforting.  Conversely, when this cool, calm, and collected individual flips to a different mode (rigid-flexible) they can "crack like a whip".  That leaves a different sort of impression.

 

 

 

He is talking about literal light that others can see. Im going to put a definition here so heres no more confusion

 

Quote

By the International Lighting Vocabulary, the definition of light is: "Any radiation capable of causing a visual sensation directly."

 

This is non symbolic

 

Rather, it is very objective mechanical, and observable empirically  to others in the vicinity of it

 

Let him tell you this himself should he return.

 

I know what he's talking about, its unfortunate nobody else seems to

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

If you had a model which is highly abstract, metaphorical, and could be used on very different and unrelated subjects with quite a few possible ways of interpretation and a model which is less abstract and focused on the process engaged with, which would you choose? 

 

Not ether/or.  I would do both.  Walk and chew gum and the same time.

 

7 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

The highly abstract because it comes with a sense that things are interrelated,

 

Is it a sense of being interrelated?

1. The highly abstract metaphor is chosen by not one but many wise practiced individuals. 
2. In practice there is a benefit to learning and understanding the abstract metaphor, else it would not be used consistently
3. The same metaphor is used in geographically distant cultures.  

 

7 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

the less abstract because it doesn't need that extra step of interpretation? 

 

I cannot comment on what is or is not needed.  What's needed depends on the aspiration.  However, I think it is foolish to abandon the teachings of those who have achieved great things.  I know you're not advocating this, but, i feel like this should be stated to avoid approaching that slippery slope.

 

From a practical perspective, ignoring that, there is a risk.  Not a hazard, an obstacle:  The false summit.  An individual learns the abstract, it gets them started on their journey.  They practice.  They learn practical techniques.  They achieve.   They neglect the original abstract teachings.  They plateau.  The plateau is misinterpreted.

 

The reason that metaphors are useful, is not that they are broad, to the contrary, they are specific.  They are like a baby koan in the manner which the heart and mind react to them.  At first it creates a sort of blank spot, where the mind and heart skip a beat, for lack of better words.  In this moment, which is a moment very similar in form to the moment immediately preceding laughter, there are nearly infinite possibilities which can fill the void in mind-and-heart.  That void.  That's an intersecting point between the practical and the abstract teachings of neidan.  The initial metaphor is the first step in training the mind to accept the concept in practice.  The void is being created.  It's happening naturally, and, somewhat gently although as we've seen in this thread some are troubled to the point of calling it gibberish and making funny faces at it.

 

After the immediate little shock to the system, when it is confronted with an abstract association, creating a void ( surprise ), the heart and mind immediately react and try to find the connection,  an intersecting point ( or points ) of reference.  When that happens, the heart and mind settle and become relaxed.  Until that point, if the metaphor is held in mind, the void is self-propagating.  In this state most describe it as "confusion" with a negative valence.  Some find it amusing, they might be mocking it.  Others become frustrated and try to push it out of their mind or distract themselves from it.  Many simply quit. "This is stupid".  Then they move on to something else.

 

If you take a look back at the thread, notice what was said about Freeform's practice?  Horse-stance?  Hours a day.  That's significant.  This same practice, exists in a different form in a military context.  During indoctrination the cadets are given a rifle.  The rifle is held in the hands and extended in front of the chest, arms straight, 90 degrees from the body.  Then they hold it.  After about around a minute seconds, everyone is starting to feeling it.   The heart and mind are beginning to pound.  If any one drops their rifle, they're out.  They're off the team.  After they start grunting and groaning around 90 seconds, each cadet is asked, one at time by their drill instructor:  "Why are you here?" And the instructor is never satisfied with their answer.  The cadets want to be there, but it's natural for them to start to question:  "Do I really want this?"   A void is being created in their heart-and-mind.  The physical exertion, the pressure at the temples, the heat rising from the ears, the pound, pound, pound of the heart, the leaders piercing judgmental glare, all of it simultaneously will naturally form the vessel into a crucible.  Only if they don't quit.

 

This same lesson is taught repeatedly, over and over.  The next level is 100m underwater no breathing.  Break the surface?  You're out.  It's that same pound-pound-pounding in the heart.  It's the same squeezing in the temples.  It's the same conviction that carries them all the way to the end.  Those who success are reminded:  "Remember what you learned today.  Your mind and your body can do a lot more than you think it can.  Never quit."  It's that same thing that is happening in hours and hours horse-stance.  It's an ordeal, a crucible, alchemy.  The contents are heated and under pressure of a heavy lid.  Like popcorn popping, it's not too much fun inside the crucible.  But the finished product is good.  Often very good.

 

In regard to metaphors, with practice, the mind and heart can become accustomed to the confusion / silliness / impracticality of them and appreciate them for what they are:  opportunities to open the mind and heart.  Each and every metaphor is an opportunity to find the thread ( or threads ) weaving through both the abstract and the practical.  While the mind and heart are in this open state, seeking the thread(s) woven in the fabric of reality, a void is produced where cultivation can occur.  With practice an individual can adopt this state of mind-and-heart at will, and eventually spend the majority of their time co-existing both in a realm of physical,  practical, and material concerns and in a realm of overlapping clouds of interconnected metaphor.  When this occurs, if they are able to interpret their own dreams, an individual's cultivation is approaching the maximum achievable limit.

 

For these reasons, I do not abandon the metaphor in favor of practical instruction.  I do both.  The goal is 24/7 cultivation where the practical benefits the abstract, and the abstract benefits the practical in an on-going sympathetic feedback loop.
 

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I know what he's talking about, its unfortunate nobody else seems to

 

Hey man!  Wassup?  I though we were avoiding each other?  Has the seal been broken?  

 

Listen.  What I'm telling you, and what TT is telling you is the same thing.  And cannot possible be news to you:  Your practice is coming from a broken lineage, right?  It's incomplete?  This is well known, right?  That's why you're prohibited from discussing it directly?

 

Remember the geometry analogy I brought?  Line contrasted with circle contrasted with sphere?  This notion that you know and nobody else here does, is, no different than the one-directional, "go for the gold", physical senses are the enemy-demon, approach you're promoting for cultivation.  What you're doing works, of course!  But it's not the only way, and your way is risky.  You're not disclosing those risks.  If you believe in a God or Karma, it's a bad idea to send people towards harming themself without informing them of the risks.

 

In addition to that, I cannot ignore the Christian attitude.  "None get there except through me!"  "Follow me if you want eternal life!"  Bro, that's the gospel in a nutshell.  

 

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I know ... nobody else seems to

 

Listen to yourself, bro.  ~shakes-my-head~   You're better than this.

[dwai]

The thread is TL;DR. 

But regarding DDJ 48, it refers to the process of reduction, letting go. We have to let go of things that draw our attention to "outside" and turn "inward." We also have to let go of things that distract us as we go inward and finally rest in pure awareness. In the Hindu tradition, the outward flowing of the mind and senses is called "pravritti" and the inward falling and reduction is called "nivritti".

 

The process of "gaining" Dao is a process of "reduction", because so long as the mind is distracted by objects, it cannot grasp and rest in the True Nature of Pure Awareness. Once the mind realizes itself as Pure Awareness, it can let go of the process of "gaining the Dao" as well. 

 

WRT light, yes there is a phenomenological generation/emission of light - but it is not electromagnetic light. It is a spiritual thing, and is also a phenomenon which needs to be let go of. One can experience this light in various stages during meditation - as the mind becomes still, there is an illumination that starts to become apparent. For example, if you are sitting in a dark room with your eyes closed in meditation, when this happens, there will be what appears to be a bright illumination in place of the darkness that was previously there. At a deeper level still, this will be also evident during deep sleep - to me it feels like the light that illuminates the darkness of a full solar eclipse (the shining underneath the darkness). 

[Shadow_self]

43 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Hey man!  Wassup?  I though we were avoiding each other?  Has the seal been broken?  

 

 

Im clarifying because the thematic analysis was a bit problematic

 

I am talking about one very specific process. Its discussed below for you.

 

 I hope it brings clarification to the matter

 

41 minutes ago, dwai said:

The thread is TL;DR. 

But regarding DDJ 48, it refers to the process of reduction, letting go. We have to let go of things that draw our attention to "outside" and turn "inward." We also have to let go of things that distract us as we go inward and finally rest in pure awareness. In the Hindu tradition, the outward flowing of the mind and senses is called "pravritti" and the inward falling and reduction is called "nivritti".

 

The process of "gaining" Dao is a process of "reduction", because so long as the mind is distracted by objects, it cannot grasp and rest in the True Nature of Pure Awareness. Once the mind realizes itself as Pure Awareness, it can let go of the process of "gaining the Dao" as well. 

 

WRT light, yes there is a phenomenological generation/emission of light - but it is not electromagnetic light. It is a spiritual thing, and is also a phenomenon which needs to be let go of. One can experience this light in various stages during meditation - as the mind becomes still, there is an illumination that starts to become apparent. For example, if you are sitting in a dark room with your eyes closed in meditation, when this happens, there will be what appears to be a bright illumination in place of the darkness that was previously there. At a deeper level still, this will be also evident during deep sleep - to me it feels like the light that illuminates the darkness of a full solar eclipse (the shining underneath the darkness). 

 

Thanks for giving the Hindu names dwai, id not seen that before   The point about awareness is exactly in line with what im taught

 

To be clear about the light, I am talking about is this phenomenon. 

 

I would have thought it better not to name it, but actually, @freeform did earlier,  so im not going over the line with anything, and can stretch this a bit further

 

 

Can you relate to that? This manifests not just with the eyes closed (as in the case of inner vision) but actually outside as well

 

This is the almost verbatim way my teachers discuss it. 

 

It often manifests as lightning that comes from a few inches above baihui.

 

All of my teachers discuss it. Daoist and Buddhist ( the latter has a different name, one im not at liberty to mention)

 

In that regard, it very much does manifest in front of anyone who is witness to it. 

 

But as I mentioned earlier, you are supposed to be away from the public eye for this. Its not a public thing really (people glowing is generally cause for concern)

 

I only know of two cases where someone left  retreat before the process had stabilized, and scores of people seen this in various settings

 

Edit: Here's a little more on it

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Shadow_self

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Im clarifying because the thematic analysis was a bit problematic

 

I am talking about one very specific process. Its discussed below for you.

 

 I hope it brings clarification to the matter

 

 

Thanks for giving the Hindu names dwai, id not seen that before   The point about awareness is exactly in line with what im taught

 

To be clear about the light, I am talking about is this phenomenon. 

 

I would have thought it better not to name it, but actually, @freeform did earlier,  so im not going over the line with anything, and can stretch this a bit further

 

 

Can you relate to that? This manifests not just with the eyes closed (as in the case of inner vision) but actually outside as well

When we practice with our teacher, I have seen this white light, as well as white light diffused throughout the practice space, as have my brothers. But I don't know if it is visible to all. Since we practice in a closed-door setting, my intuition tells me it is not visible to everyone, but I could be wrong. My teacher can see mostly everything that is not visible to us. It was explained to me: "Some people can see visually; others just know." 

 

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

This is the almost verbatim way my teachers discuss it. 

 

It often manifests as lightning that comes from a few inches above baihui.

 

All of my teachers discuss it. Daoist and Buddhist ( the latter has a different name, one im not at liberty to mention)

 

In that regard, it very much does manifest in front of anyone who is witness to it. 

 

But as I mentioned earlier, you are supposed to be away from the public eye for this. Its not a public thing really (people glowing is generally cause for concern)

 

I only know of two cases where someone left  retreat before the process had stabilized, and scores of people seen this in various settings

 

 

[Shadow_self]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

When we practice with our teacher, I have seen this white light, as well as white light diffused throughout the practice space, as have my brothers. But I don't know if it is visible to all. Since we practice in a closed-door setting, my intuition tells me it is not visible to everyone, but I could be wrong. My teacher can see mostly everything that is not visible to us. It was explained to me: "Some people can see visually; others just know." 

 

That one in particular from above baihiu (The lightning strike of Ling) , is visible to everyone as far as I know.

 

Its not usually spoken of too much, but i guess TDB is the exception

 

One such  unnamed individual mentioned earlier was unfortunate enough to have it kick off in  a very public place after leaving retreat before stabilizing it , which caused quite  a stir 

 

The others, depends.

 

I would need to see it tbh because lights a weird one for sure. It can be a result of the teacher emitting it tangibly , or it might be widened perception (or both) I guess a control would be needed for some of those types to be sure? 

 

Definately far stranger that the fa qi stuff that gets so much heat from skeptics in my experience

 

Id think to myself, if you cant accept someone being able to give someone else  an electric shock, How are you going to accept them lit up like a christmas tree

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

I feel there must be some missing context here. Where do the assertions about the jhanas above come from? Is there some particular text, or...? 

 

To touch on a few of these points that Freeform made:

 

Jhanas 4 - 8+ are "formless". Awareness of subject object/reality fades to increasing degrees - self, time and space can be seen to be illusory, but this is a MUCH more commonplace eventual realization than it might appear, for this is ALREADY the case in normal consciousness. I can't corroborate any "Rainbow Body" or "Light Body"... these jhanas are actually MORE "empty" than the ones before where subtle dualities you may not have even realized existed can be seen to be illusory too. It would be complicated to explain. The appearance of some new "form" like rainbows or light would suggest moving backward against the continuum of jhanas, not forward. Nirodha is complete cessation of consciousness which happens after 8th jhana. 

 

The jhanas have been around since before the Buddha in various forms. They are not really an attainment themselves, but they are impermanent states that are analogous (NOT the same as) various states of attainment. They also correspond to "levels" (layers?) of stabilized experience after awakening - for example my typical moment to moment experience is roughly equivalent to the 5th or 6th jhana, and my meditative experience will go out to 8th. 

 

Past the 4th jhana you get a taste of of what realized emptiness is like, and can even get a "fruition" if you experience the fairly rare Nirodha. These are a fairly hard attainment for the unrealized meditator, but aren't in any way necessary to enlightenment. I never did them before realization, and in the Tibetan and Zen traditions there are plenty of practitioners that never learn them and complete the path. 

 

I can definitely sit and work up through 8th jhana plus and experience none of the effects mentioned above, which isn't to say that they might not exist, but that if they feature in Mahayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, or Zen, it certainly isn't mentioned very often if at all. 

 

BTW, I could probably train most experienced meditators to recognized 2nd jhana. If you are interested in jhana practice in general, I can heartily recommend Leigh Brassington's book, "Right Concentration":

 

https://leighb.com/rc/index.html

 

As for the siddhis, they develop with concentration, including jhanas. The degree to which you experience them is connected to the degree to which you filter your daily experience through your karma (story about the world). The less obscured you are, and the less you explain away strange phenomena, the stronger they become, if you get them at all. 

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I feel there must be some missing context here. Where do the assertions about the jhanas above come from? Is there some particular text, or...? 

 

 

You have a very good point.  If these things really happen, when and where they should be in the ladder of attainments?  Let say a level 10 could do it easily, then how about level 5 or 4, 3.....   When phenomenon arises when/where they should not be, isn't there something not in order?

[Shadow_self]

20 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I feel there must be some missing context here. Where do the assertions about the jhanas above come from? Is there some particular text, or...? 

 

To touch on a few of these points that Freeform made:

 

Jhanas 4 - 8+ are "formless". Awareness of subject object/reality fades to increasing degrees - self, time and space can be seen to be illusory, but this is a MUCH more commonplace eventual realization than it might appear, for this is ALREADY the case in normal consciousness. I can't corroborate any "Rainbow Body" or "Light Body"... these jhanas are actually MORE "empty" than the ones before where subtle dualities you may not have even realized existed can be seen to be illusory too. It would be complicated to explain. The appearance of some new "form" like rainbows or light would suggest moving backward against the continuum of jhanas, not forward. Nirodha is complete cessation of consciousness which happens after 8th jhana. 

 

The jhanas have been around since before the Buddha in various forms. They are not really an attainment themselves, but they are impermanent states that are analogous (NOT the same as) various states of attainment. They also correspond to "levels" (layers?) of stabilized experience after awakening - for example my typical moment to moment experience is roughly equivalent to the 5th or 6th jhana, and my meditative experience will go out to 8th. 

 

Past the 4th jhana you get a taste of of what realized emptiness is like, and can even get a "fruition" if you experience the fairly rare Nirodha. These are a fairly hard attainment for the unrealized meditator, but aren't in any way necessary to enlightenment. I never did them before realization, and in the Tibetan and Zen traditions there are plenty of practitioners that never learn them and complete the path. 

 

I can definitely sit and work up through 8th jhana plus and experience none of the effects mentioned above, which isn't to say that they might not exist, but that if they feature in Mahayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, or Zen, it certainly isn't mentioned very often if at all. 

 

BTW, I could probably train most experienced meditators to recognized 2nd jhana. If you are interested in jhana practice in general, I can heartily recommend Leigh Brassington's book, "Right Concentration":

 

https://leighb.com/rc/index.html

 

As for the siddhis, they develop with concentration, including jhanas. The degree to which you experience them is connected to the degree to which you filter your daily experience through your karma (story about the world). The less obscured you are, and the less you explain away strange phenomena, the stronger they become, if you get them at all. 

 

Both freeform and I (though different lines) have somewhat similar understandings of Jhana.

 

Its been a while since we last spoke, but from what i glean, his interpretation is similar to my own

 

 

There are tests/confirmatory signs etc. before freeform left, he gave some insight. One example is below

 

 

Thats above my paygrade, you'd need to get specifics from him.

 

Pretty sure from he said  72 hours would be the line for 2nd Jhana.  You can also see that visible light phenomena is one such sign of it. 

 

I wasnt given a number, im just informed its several days, because its beyond my paygrade (way beyond) 

 

My training is  different to his im sure , its just the Jhanas where I see very strong similarities (they seem near impossible to most)

 

What we are both crystal clear on one thing though, and he never told me

 

I had to find it out in a far more shocking manner, was that indeed, people of a certain degree of attaiment, do in fact emit a visible light! 

 

I later came to find out that wasnt limited to just one of my teachers. Its simply a sign you've managed a certain degree of attainment

 

 

The other stuff freeform mentioned, things like transforming substances are also things that are known to me.

 

In some cases highly developed states of conciousness are used in tandem with external substances to purify them for usage, and can be used for all manner of ailments and progress in practice

 

Mercury (actual mercury) is one such example in many of the lines of Buddhism in South East Asia

 

Hopefully if we keep tagging  @freeform he'll return  

 

He's far  better position to answer you than i am

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

As for the siddhis, they develop with concentration, including jhanas. The degree to which you experience them is connected to the degree to which you filter your daily experience through your karma (story about the world). The less obscured you are, and the less you explain away strange phenomena, the stronger they become, if you get them at all. 

This is the crux of my disagreement with Freeform (and others of his camp, if there's one). I feel there is too much emphasis on "evidence" --  phenomena, and narratives. Sometimes, these phenomena can be consequences of said narratives (as opposed to their source) - I think it is called confirmation bias. 

 

[stirling]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Both freeform and I (though different lines) have somewhat similar understandings of Jhana.

 

Its been a while since we last spoke, but from what i glean, his interpretation is similar to my own

 

There are tests/confirmatory signs etc. before freeform left, he gave some insight. One example is below

 

 

Thats above my paygrade, you'd need to get specifics from him.

 

I appreciate you sharing. It is OK for us to have different experiences!

 

Certainly the emphasis on sitting is important, though I wouldn't consider sitting for 72hrs straight the "Middle Way", myself.  

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Pretty sure from he said  72 hours would be the line for 2nd Jhana.  You can also see that visible light phenomena is one such sign of it. 

 

Most people I have met (with some meditation experience) can get some sense of 1st or 2nd jhana in a week or so, setting aside this idea of light phenomena for a moment. 

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

My training is  different to his im sure , its just the Jhanas where I see very strong similarities (they seem near impossible to most)

 

The formless jhanas can be much more difficult.

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

What we are both crystal clear on one thing though, and he never told me

 

I had to find it out in a far more shocking manner, was that indeed, people of a certain degree of attaiment, do in fact emit a visible light! 

 

I later came to find out that wasnt limited to just one of my teachers. Its simply a sign you've managed a certain degree of attainment

 

 

Depending on what we are talking about, I don't think such things are impossible, but tying them specifically to some sort of perceived attainment seems far fetched.

 

Which particular attainment would one need to emit light?

 

People have all kinds of experiences in meditation, and some are quite common. There is really only one attainment, IMHO, which is (once realized) sort of ordinary - even though one understands the "immortal"/physics/self/time breaking down aspects.

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The other stuff freeform mentioned, things like transforming substances are also things that are known to me.

 

In some cases highly developed states of conciousness are used in tandem with external substances to purify them for usage, and can be used for all manner of ailments and progress in practice

 

Mercury (actual mercury) is one such example in many of the lines of Buddhism in South East Asia

 

I won't say that these are "impossible" (my experience is that many surprising things are possible), but I am not sure why they would matter once there is complete realization. 

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Hopefully if we keep tagging  @freeform he'll return  

 

He's far  better position to answer you than i am

 

[Giles]

Siddhi-chasing is pure materialism.

 

[Forestgreen]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 However, I think it is foolish to abandon the teachings of those who have achieved great things.  I know you're not advocating this, but, i feel like this should be stated to avoid approaching that slippery slope.

Here we are in agreement. 

What I do not advocate though, is using a language that was developed for a different area of study. 

Quote

An individual learns the abstract, it gets them started on their journey.  They practice.  They learn practical techniques.  They achieve.   They neglect the original abstract teachings.  They plateau.  The plateau is misinterpreted.

I actually agree with you here, I just do not find a waidan language useful for neidan.

Quote

 

The reason that metaphors are useful, is not that they are broad, to the contrary, they are specific.  They are like a baby koan in the manner which the heart and mind react to them.  At first it creates a sort of blank spot, where the mind and heart skip a beat, for lack of better words.  In this moment, which is a moment very similar in form to the moment immediately preceding laughter, there are nearly infinite possibilities which can fill the void in mind-and-heart.  That void.  That's an intersecting point between the practical and the abstract teachings of neidan.  The initial metaphor is the first step in training the mind to accept the concept in practice.  The void is being created.  It's happening naturally, and, somewhat gently although as we've seen in this thread some are troubled to the point of calling it gibberish and making funny faces at it.

Here, you are coming from the koan angle. For me, those metaphors are like a recipy, the ingredients are, well, fight club.

Quote

 

It is interesting though that some of the metaphors that are part of my practice, although not derived from waidan, are used in daoist, hindu and buddhist traditions ( the only one I have investigated). The difference being that they are discussed as recipies and the components are discussed quite in the open, except in the daoist tradition that wraps stuff up in even more metaphorical language. 

 

It was interesting having this discussion with you, always interesting to get another angle on things. Thanks. 

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… i swear to god

 As you are an atheist, that’s like crossing your fingers behind your back. 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Cobie

[Cobie]

“much knowledge is a perilous thing”

from https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55100-free-healing-activation-for-neidan-xiao-yao-pai/?do=findComment&comment=1038036

 

 

Edited August 16 by Cobie