DDJ Chapter 48

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

This is the crux of my disagreement with Freeform (and others of his camp, if there's one). I feel there is too much emphasis on "evidence" --  phenomena, and narratives. Sometimes, these phenomena can be consequences of said narratives (as opposed to their source) - I think it is called confirmation bias. 

 

 

Its an understandable point Dwai (thought theres no freeform camp. Or,, if there is, hes a terrible leader because hes been missing almost a year  

 

None of us  actually train for siddhi, they do arise. But they are markers of something, and thats the key point.

 

In our circles at least,  it is well accepted that when actual transformation occurs, it pierces every aspect of the being,

 

For schools, and practitioners who think like this, we use the physical manifestations of abilities as a sign that an actual transformation has occured. Thats all really

 

Ill give two examples below and illustrate for anyone who might wonder what I mean

 

Ill stick with ones that @freeformalready brought up, so no lines are crossed

 

 

Below he mentions the jesus-y ones, like changing wine into water

 

 

He elaborates here, by saying it is a form of Qi emission.

 

I also know how to do the beginnings of that one (and so do some of my friends) . It isnt really as miraculous as it sounds to be honest. It's a test to check how well certain aspects of the training are going

 

If successful, There should be no need need to do it again,  its already been demonstrated I am capable of it

 

Anything after that is just a waste of energy . If I fail, then more training, and perhaps rechecking to see what might be the issue. revisit it at a later date

 

Now to revert back to the point about transformation

 

A while back, I had an development, and it's known to give rise to a number of transformations (some very profound even). Sure enough, I started to develop an ability, but I have very little control of it

 

This is a sign that the transformation is happening (As its manifest) however, as I cannot control it, its not  a stable thing at all.  In fact, its very sporadic, and problematic. Causes me issues often enough

 

If you contrast that with the earlier point made about the lightning strike of ling, people need to be out of sight of the public while thats in "unstable mode" Otherwise it can cause all sorts of problems

 

So in my own case, something needs to change

 

Most likely, I need a retreat or something to really dip into that specific aspect of development, stabilize the transformation, and move onto the next thing.

 

So in this case, its more of a diagnostic tool to see how to best support the practice, and ensure development continues rather than getting stuck and causing issues

 

In both cases, the abilities were never aims, or even discussed really.  Just something that comes along as we move down the road of training  

Edited August 16 by Shadow_self

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

… you are an atheist, …

Actually that’s weird. I thought you were a Confucian. Doesn’t Confucianism believe in a God called 天  ?  

 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I appreciate you sharing. It is OK for us to have different experiences!

 

Indeed it is, but sometimes it can cause confusion.

 

Jhana is definately one of those, and Im nowhere near as informed as others on the topic

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Certainly the emphasis on sitting is important, though I wouldn't consider sitting for 72hrs straight the "Middle Way", myself.  

 

Sounds more like the Highway (to Hell  ) 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Most people I have met (with some meditation experience) can get some sense of 1st or 2nd jhana in a week or so, setting aside this idea of light phenomena for a moment. 

 

 

The formless jhanas can be much more difficult.

 

 

Of course this was the point I made in the previous post. There would be some signs of jhana entry that are observable in the types of traditions we mention

 

In that case, the sign is indicative of the level of attainment. Of course one can have rather unstable experiences of someting, but that does not mean they have "attained it".

 

I gave one such example in my last post

 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

Depending on what we are talking about, I don't think such things are impossible, but tying them specifically to some sort of perceived attainment seems far fetched.

 

Which particular attainment would one need to emit light?

 

It would be hard to detail all the light based phenomena, and im certainly no expert. 

 

In reality, I shouldnt even know about the one I mentioned, only its happend my teachers (thats around the 2nd)

 

Its an unruly, temporary, spontaneous state, which is why one needs to be away. Im not sure its relative to all lines of Theravada, but the alchemical ones im familair with, yes

 

Now, @freeform mentions the 4th jhana here,  and Im of the opinion he's talking about something much more stable in this instance.

 

Theres a few things he's said here Id need to ask him in private to confirm, but if my suspicions are correct then thats exactly what hes talking about, and it jives with something else ive been told in private

 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

People have all kinds of experiences in meditation, and some are quite common. There is really only one attainment, IMHO, which is (once realized) sort of ordinary - even though one understands the "immortal"/physics/self/time breaking down aspects.

 

 

"immortal"/physics/self/time breaking down : In this case, I believe what he means is all these things break down in the vicinity of the person, for others to percieve  

 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I won't say that these are "impossible" (my experience is that many surprising things are possible), but I am not sure why they would matter once there is complete realization. 

 

External alchemy, as far as practice goes in the traditions I undestand, only works with the internal development done alongside it

 

The people engaging in it can not only further their own practice, but help others

 

People have been known to have cancer  (amongst other ailments) cured with mercury (of all things) when the right person has transformed the substance via conciousness  

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Indeed it is, but sometimes it can cause confusion.

 

Only experience dispels confusion. There are many ways to describe phenomena, but I have found that most "relative" descriptions are clarified by "absolute" understanding.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Jhana is definately one of those, and Im nowhere near as informed as others on the topic.

 

Me either, honestly, though I would say my teacher is about as expert as they come. I don't personally consider the jhanas as important as simply learning to rest the mind in emptiness, or most of the "moral" practices intended to develop loving-kindness/compassion.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Sounds more like the Highway (to Hell  )

 

Absolutely!

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Of course this was the point I made in the previous post. There would be some signs of jhana entry that are observable in the types of traditions we mention

 

In that case, the sign is indicative of the level of attainment. Of course one can have rather unstable experiences of someting, but that does not mean they have "attained it".

 

I gave one such example in my last post

 

Got it.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

It would be hard to detail all the light based phenomena, and im certainly no expert. 

 

In reality, I shouldnt even know about the one I mentioned, only its happend my teachers (thats around the 2nd)

 

My sticking point is the idea that anyone else might be able to observe such phenomena. Certainly "light" phenomena of various kinds have happened in meditation to me MANY times, with the nimitta being a constant companion, and some "kundalini' style stuff occurring any number of times, but something seeable by other people... mmmm....

 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Its an unruly, temporary, spontaneous state, which is why one needs to be away. Im not sure its relative to all lines of Theravada, but the alchemical ones im familair with, yes

 

Which specific Theravada traditions are we talking here? Thai Forest?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

While sounding a little like hyperbole, I actually don't have a problem with ANY part of that quote except the idea that someone physically radiates light. I have met teachers (some famous) who have been enlightened for decades, but they don't radiate light. As for the other claims, they are actually much less incredible than they sound.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

"immortal"/physics/self/time breaking down : In this case, I believe what he means is all these things break down in the vicinity of the person, for others to percieve

 

Interesting, but not something in my experience... see above. It isn't something I would miss, if I encountered it, and I have met some of the most famous living (and dead) Tibetan teachers. 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

External alchemy, as far as practice goes in the traditions I undestand, only works with the internal development done alongside it

 

What is meant here by external and internal?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

The people engaging in it can not only further their own practice, but help others

 

People have been known to have cancer  (amongst other ailments) cured with mercury (of all things) when the right person has transformed the substance via conciousness  

 

What is wrong with cancer... or "death" for that matter? My experience is that anyone who is actually enlightened understands that death and illness are not problems. The Buddha was ill and "died". What is immortal isn't the "self"... isn't the character of a "person" we play in our day to day lives. There is nothing to save, OR protect there... we are actually ALREADY "immortal". The difference between a Buddha and someone else is ONLY the realization. No special bodily transformation.

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

Actually that’s weird. I thought you were a Confucian. Doesn’t Confucianism believe in a God called 天  ?  

yes i am, yes we do. except Heaven is not a personified god like all the others, it is a life-giving impersonal source

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

 As you are an atheist, that’s like crossing your fingers behind your back. 

atheism is just another name for materialism. which is just another name for stupidity.

[Daniel]

20 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 I hope it brings clarification to the matter

 

I am aware of the technique.  Whether or not this is what is being described in DDJ48 is debatable.  It is certainly easy to super-impose ones own preferred practice on any cryptic passage, then, spike the football and reward oneself with self-validating glory. 

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

“much knowledge is a perilous thing”

from https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55100-free-healing-activation-for-neidan-xiao-yao-pai/?do=findComment&comment=1038036

 

 

 

Yes, reliance on "knowing" is self-defeating.  There is a significant difference between knowing and understanding.  They are sharply contrasting cognitive functions.

 

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

“much knowledge is a perilous thing”

from https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55100-free-healing-activation-for-neidan-xiao-yao-pai/?do=findComment&comment=1038036

 

 

 

It doesn't make sense for the DDJ to discourage all learning.  If that were true, then, the reader would reach this passage, stop reading, and dispose of the DDJ altogether.  It would never have been saved and passed on as a sacred text to be learned by others.

[Forestgreen]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 It is certainly easy to super-impose ones own preferred practice on any cryptic passage, then, spike the football and reward oneself with self-validating glory. 

Yes...

[Daniel]

Just now, Forestgreen said:

Yes...

 

Yes.  That's why I did not deny my bias and continued researching.  I didn't spike the football.  Within a short amount of time, I found other texts which clearly ( not cryptically ) support, ( not validate )  my theory.  

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

What is wrong with cancer

 

^^ Delusional ^^

 

Edited August 17 by Daniel

[Daniel]

15 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

buddhist traditions ( the only one I have investigated)

 

Ahhhhhh.  OK.  Thank you for clarifying.

[Daniel]

15 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

It was interesting having this discussion with you, always interesting to get another angle on things. Thanks. 

 

Likewise

[Cobie]

I have reported this: 

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

… People have been known to have cancer  (amongst other ailments) cured with mercury (of all things) when the right person has transformed the substance via conciousness 

 

21 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

… In some cases highly developed states of conciousness are used in tandem with external substances to purify them for usage, and can be used for all manner of ailments and progress in practice

 

 

Mercury (actual mercury) is one such example  …

 

 

 

This issue was discussed before:

On 29/12/2023 at 2:24 PM, Neirong said:

I think people promoting mercury ingestion should be taken off from the internet, it is not far from promoting suicide or violence.
There are a lot of young people, easily impressible people and fools on the internet that can take this very seriously, and jump on the "Immortal pill" train ingesting mercury.

 

On 30/12/2023 at 12:39 AM, Cobie said:

I agree, all people promoting mercury ingestion should be permanently banned.

 

 

 

Previous admods team decision:

On 06/01/2024 at 4:38 PM, steve said:

Mod note

 

The mod team and admin have reviewed a report regarding posts on mercury and cinnabar.

Mutually respectful discussion on the topic is welcome.

Due to the highly toxic nature of mercury and mercury containing compounds, including cinnabar, we feel that the potential for misuse and harm is high, consequently advocating or encouraging the ingestion of such compounds is not acceptable here and may be grounds for administrative action. 

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

 

 

Mercury use is based in misunderstanding:

On 31/12/2023 at 12:17 AM, Neirong said:

... the reality is that people in the past, and as always, used cryptic words to conceal the real meaning. … Mercury, in alchemical texts, is not even a physical substance.
 

It is a test for a fool. Someone who stole the text would consume poison and die suffering instead of any benefit.

 

On 31/12/2023 at 12:27 AM, Cobie said:

Think chakra colours: mercury is silver-white; cinnabar is red-orange. 

 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

46 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 Someone who stole the text would consume poison and die suffering 

not if we ban them first!

[Cobie]

.

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… Heaven is not a personified god like all the others, it is a life-giving impersonal source …

I thought Confucians do rituals/offerings to 天? 
And if so: Can an ‘impersonal source’ be aware of what you do? What is your motivation for doing rituals/offerings?  
 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Ahhhhhh.  OK.  Thank you for clarifying.

Should say the only ones, referring to all three, not the only one which might be misunderstood as if I only studied buddhist material. 

The practice is buddhist though,  Shaolin to narrow it down a bit. 

[Nungali]

Well, back on page 3 .....

 

 

On 14/08/2024 at 1:30 PM, Nungali said:

 

Old uses of alchemy both east and west have been historically  fraught with poisonings .  

 

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

I thought Confucians do rituals/offerings to 天? 

interestingly no. Confucians, in their capacity of imperial officers were certainly involved in organizing 祭天, but only the emperor would do it. not as a confucian (despite him being one) but as an emperor.

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Can an ‘impersonal source’ be aware of what you do?

of course not. it is the source, it does not care

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

What is your motivation for doing rituals/offerings?

people do those to get in touch with their ancestors. offerings are not necessary but going through making them helps you to put your heart in contact with the ancestors.

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

recall you said before that materialism is “stupid”.  😊

yeah i mean stupid does not begin to describe it...man evolved from a monkey? life comes from dead matter? Darwinism?....frankly there are no words...

Edited August 17 by Taoist Texts

[Cobie]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Confucians, in their capacity of imperial officers were certainly involved in organizing 祭天, but only the emperor would do it. not as a confucian (despite him being one) but as an emperor.

 

of course not. it is the source, it does not care

 

people do those to get in touch with their ancestors. offerings are not necessary but going through making them helps you to put your heart in contact with the ancestors.

Righto, thanks for your answer. But where does this leave people with abusive parents?

 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

But where does this leave people with abusive parents?

in confucianism there are no abusive parents. only ungrateful children;)

[Shadow_self]

14 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Only experience dispels confusion. There are many ways to describe phenomena, but I have found that most "relative" descriptions are clarified by "absolute" understanding.

 

 

Im all for experience

 

Quote

Me either, honestly, though I would say my teacher is about as expert as they come. I don't personally consider the jhanas as important as simply learning to rest the mind in emptiness, or most of the "moral" practices intended to develop loving-kindness/compassion.

 

Depending on the tradition, there are various uses for jhana.

 

In the one I can speak on, its not only important. You cant get anything meaningful done without it.

 

Much of the foundation training is basically working up to jhana, and takes a long time

 

In this respect , 1st jhana would be verbatim whats mentioned here. Thats what my training involves

 

 

 

Quote

 

My sticking point is the idea that anyone else might be able to observe such phenomena. Certainly "light" phenomena of various kinds have happened in meditation to me MANY times, with the nimitta being a constant companion, and some "kundalini' style stuff occurring any number of times, but something seeable by other people... mmmm....

 

 

You might take issue with the lesser, non public lines then, but i can assure you, its very much as thing.  

 

Much like the strike of ling some of it starts in the inner vision. Eventually, that changes and things do manifest physically.

 

I have to be honest. This kind of thing is beyond the scope of what most people are willing to believe. Thats understandable. All I can do is tell you its as real as real can be.

 

Quote

Which specific Theravada traditions are we talking here? Thai Forest?

 

No, these line are far less accessible   You could group them under "boran kammathanna" though thats just a catch all term for "former practices" 

 

They exist in various scatteirngs around south east asia, but also, there are people in the west that are access points into the tradition.

 

Quote

While sounding a little like hyperbole, I actually don't have a problem with ANY part of that quote except the idea that someone physically radiates light. I have met teachers (some famous) who have been enlightened for decades, but they don't radiate light. As for the other claims, they are actually much less incredible than they sound.

 

This goes back to my point about terms like jhana, kundalini, enlightened, awakened and so on

 

In the lines Ive mentioned, there are very clear markers of this. They always tend to manifest physically in some way

 

 If you cannot demonstrate the markers, you do not have that attainment.

 

For example, if you are enlightened, you will radiate light visibly. If you are not then you wont. 

 

There are manyother non physical things that happen too, but if the transformation/attainment is pure, it will extend right down into the physical body. If it has not, then you have not reached that state

 

I understand that sounds cutting, or rather mechanical, but, thats quite literally how it is in these traditions that im talking about

 

Quote

Interesting, but not something in my experience... see above. It isn't something I would miss, if I encountered it, and I have met some of the most famous living (and dead) Tibetan teachers. 

 

Fame and attainment are often not always related. Mantak Chia is one fine example  

 

if you look at what @freeform mentioned about emitting light visibily past 4th Jhana, is it really surprising

 

At 5-7 its rainbow body

8-9 it is light body

 

Im sure you know the traditions view on such things, then you are probably aware, things like the rainbow body are not figurative, they are literal.

 

Relics are often left behind after the rainbow body after al

 

Quote

What is meant here by external and internal?

 

Working with physical substances, and using conciousness as a means to transmute, alter etc.

 

The two go together. In fact, at the level im talking about, they are inseparable

 

The real thing is quite a living tradition. Just well hidden  

 

Quote

 

What is wrong with cancer... or "death" for that matter?

 

That depends on who you ask.

 

Ive a bit of  insight and experience around death, so for me Ive got a good grasp on the mechanic, and view it differently that most people. Others might not feel the same

 

Generally speaking the people ive seen working with physical substances  and internal work are usually either involved in Weizza traditions (as @freeform talked about) or regional variations across South East Asia.

 

For example, Thai Lanna Sorcery also has various overlaps with both the Weizza Lines, and others in parts of Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Laos

 

This type of stuff is basically closed to the public, unless you know the right people, and have the "destiny" to meet them.

 

That sounds bizarre, but its a thing. Many of the high level practitioners have the ability to see into the casual realm, so, they would be more or less able to discern full cause and effect

 

Quote

My experience is that anyone who is actually enlightened understands that death and illness are not problems. The Buddha was ill and "died". What is immortal isn't the "self"... isn't the character of a "person" we play in our day to day lives. There is nothing to save, OR protect there... we are actually ALREADY "immortal".

 

I understand the point you are making  

 

Quote

The difference between a Buddha and someone else is ONLY the realization.# No special bodily transformation.

 

Which is one reason why i mention the importance of the path of subtraction   What I am talking about is always strictly alchemical though . Ive definately seen the body of people go through transformation.

 

Theres a whole other topic there

 

PS 

Edited August 17 by Shadow_self

[Sahaja]

The people on the path of subtraction often don’t think the physical changes associated with the paths of addition are important..  They are often surprised when they find out (at the end ) that both paths lead to the same place. Hehe. 

[Shadow_self]

@stirling @dwai

 

Just a brief note on this

 

 

I would hope that my mentioning of this topic comes across as a description of what takes place in certain closed door lineages,. Its simply intended to be respectful discussion regards what does happen in countries in SE Asia, and to give some insight into it

 

I was pretty sure that goes without saying, but a certian individual seemed to be confused when compreheding the posts, and seemed to think otherwise.

 

As a point of clarification, ive made it quite clear these lineages are closed to the public in general. So I am not talking about a public thing. 

 

Also , and this is important. Please note that I mentioned usage only.

 

 I never at any point mentioned ingestion, and by proxy, did not advocate or encourage anyone to do so

 

Moreover, the usage I was referring to spans various applications and I was not specific at all.

 

Heres an example of usage.

 

Sometimes it is embedded into the core of a ceremonial blade handle, in a protective casing for various ritualistic purposes. Its sometimes sealed in with gold   These riituals are broad and can be applied to several cases, including illness in the case of the more magical aspects of the traditions  

 

Anyway i hope either of you  two would let me know if there is a problem.  I am happy to listen to either of you, or the mods  

 

I also hope the person who became very anxious and concerned, has  had their fears put to rest. I definately do not wish to cause anybody any mental anguish, especially anyone who could be easily upset

Edited August 17 by Shadow_self