DDJ Chapter 48

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I am aware of the technique.

 

The clarification was around emitting visible light, as your extended thematic analysis of what freeform meant was something that I felt needed context, so that everyone was on the same page about what his statement was referencing

[Nintendao]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Im sure you know the traditions view on such things, then you are probably aware, things like the rainbow body are not figurative, they are literal.

 

Relics are often left behind after the rainbow body after al

 

This beautiful documentary includes a rare eye-witness account (video link is cued up to 41:41 for this discussion but i do recommend watching the whole thing whenever you have the time. I feel I should disclaim that anyone uncomfortable with viewing human remains may want to skip past the sky burial between 17:40 and 20:10.)

 

 

I imagine it would be easy for a skeptic to believe something like the emotional state of the sisters caused them to hallucinate in some way what they saw. Or just say they are making stuff up and call it day. So yes, there are still people in this world who do not own cameras. I wonder if a camera would even pick it up. Maybe with the right enhancements. As @dwai had touched on, there could very well be some elusive class of emission or entanglement that is by no means imaginary, but who technology has not yet caught up to what living system is capable of perceiving. 

 

Also interesting is reduced weight of the transformed physical body. I guess we can say that the diminishing mentioned in verse 48 is quite literal in a certain case.

 

Spoiler

feel free to skip this part as i am completely rambling about whatever.

 

 

i just remembered this other clip where there's a little wisp of steam coming off the top of the guys head. what if the nuns who practiced that "secret yoga of magic heat," where part of the training is to go outside in winter with wet sheets on their back, and the steam comes off, they train this mechanism so much that in the final process the moisture in the body gets expelled almost like a jet of steam and that is what catches the light? That would then tie into how the body shrinks if it's drying out faster than usual almost like an instant mummy.

 

Sounds like the ones who are actually describing flashes though would have tell the difference between that and steam, even if it was some new consistency. I am fine with it being light or even yangshen but like thinking of something palatable to a die-hard mechanistic. Of course, biophoton is already an objectively researched thing that all creatures emit photons in the visible light spectrum as part of metabolic and other processes. It takes a super duper sensitive detector though as it's so minimal. So that could somehow be amplified with extreme training maybe. What's more is even if technology can pick up photons that can not even be seen with naked eye, there could be information encoded in the emission that we would never be able to decipher, but that our subconscious or certain organs are native to.

 

Edited August 17 by Nintendao

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… ungrateful children …

 

What about the children of people like Fred and Rose West? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West 

 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

40 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

What about the children of people like Fred and Rose West? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West 

They are not one of us. We don't care. Not our problem.

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

They are not one of us. We don't care. Not our problem.

 

You overlooked the pivotal word, “like”. You too have such people.  
 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

What about the children of people like Fred and Rose West? 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The clarification was around emitting visible light, as your extended thematic analysis of what freeform meant was something that I felt needed context, so that everyone was on the same page about what his statement was referencing

 

Meh.  I don't think you are a good judge of this.  For some reason you think your own experiences invalidate others in the form of "Because I'm right you must be wrong."  The world doesn't work that way.  It's as if you're swimming in an ocean denying elephants exist because you can't see them from your current position.

 

It doesn't matter to me anymore.  You have a narrow little half-dimensional outlook.  My hope and desire that you use it in good health, and not cause any unjustified harm.

 

Edited August 17 by Daniel

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

You too have such people.  
E.g.

- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-68125721

- https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2650355/killer-dad-admits-to-murdering-more-kids 

 

 

 

not all Asians are Confucians?

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

not all Asians are Confucians?

I find that a very disappointing post by you, expected better from you. Silly bit of sophistry imo.
The literal reading of the words vs the spirit of the words, yes?

You can do a proper research if you want to, I am not going to waste my time on it.
I think anyone of good intention would acknowledge that unfortunately everywhere, always and in every society/culture/religion,  there are some that are mentally ill/ill-intentioned. 
 

And all that goes for this silly post too:

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

They are not one of us. We don't care. Not our problem.

 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Nintendao]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

ill

Believe me i don't need to do research to know some of the ungodly things that humans are capable of 

And i actually do appreciate being held to a higher standard than most smartasses. I just meant that i didn't understand why you would even be putting those as examples. Like in those instances the people would have already been cut off from 天 in enough of a way for it to even happen. But i guess in other cases if the children lived through it, and then went on to become Confucianist, I do see your point in that they might not want to be making offerings to their parents. Maybe they could focus on the grandparent or any ancestor further back to ask for help in forgiving and healing from what was done..

[Cobie]

 

3 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

…

 

This is what the discussion was about:

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

in confucianism there are no abusive parents. only ungrateful children;)

 

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

This is what the discussion was about:

 

They got into Confusion instead of Confucius . 

 

Not that I am one to judge a book by its cover  ... well, actually, stuff that  , I am !

 

Look at them ?  The weird f***ed up aura even comes through a picture on the internet ......... URGHHHH    

 

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Depending on the tradition, there are various uses for jhana.

 

In the one I can speak on, its not only important. You cant get anything meaningful done without it.

 

Much of the foundation training is basically working up to jhana, and takes a long time.

 

Certainly the Buddha suggested jhanas as training, but didn't mention the aspects you are discussing, which isn't to say they aren't or can't be valid. Having followed the well-known Pali descriptions of jhana practice, I haven't arrived at the same phenomena, and they certainly aren't what led me to complete the path. The Buddha promises the end of suffering. My experience is that these particular proofs or events aren't necessary for that goal. 

 

None of that means that I don't find them interesting.

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

In this respect , 1st jhana would be verbatim whats mentioned here. Thats what my training involves

 

 

I admit to being a little confused by Freeform's description of 1st jhana in that last paragraph. The first jhana still includes a "self", thoughts, etc. Oneness doesn't appear until the meditation is formless...

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You might take issue with the lesser, non public lines then, but i can assure you, its very much as thing.  

 

Much like the strike of ling some of it starts in the inner vision. Eventually, that changes and things do manifest physically.

 

I have to be honest. This kind of thing is beyond the scope of what most people are willing to believe. Thats understandable. All I can do is tell you its as real as real can be.

 

Oh... I've seen some truly unbelievable stuff, seeing a little light emit from someone would be strange, but not the craziest thing I have seen. My point is really that, based on MY understanding of these practices and enlightenment itself, none of these things make sense together. 

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

No, these line are far less accessible   You could group them under "boran kammathanna" though thats just a catch all term for "former practices" 

 

They exist in various scatteirngs around south east asia, but also, there are people in the west that are access points into the tradition.

 

Had to look that up, unsurprisingly. Does the practice you are talking about include building an "immortal vehicle"?

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

This goes back to my point about terms like jhana, kundalini, enlightened, awakened and so on

 

In the lines Ive mentioned, there are very clear markers of this. They always tend to manifest physically in some way

 

 If you cannot demonstrate the markers, you do not have that attainment.

 

For example, if you are enlightened, you will radiate light visibly. If you are not then you wont. 

 

There are many other non physical things that happen too, but if the transformation/attainment is pure, it will extend right down into the physical body. If it has not, then you have not reached that state

 

I understand that sounds cutting, or rather mechanical, but, thats quite literally how it is in these traditions that im talking about

 

I can see how someone would want that. It is quite clear to me at the same time that the body isn't any more special than any other aspect of the dharmakaya, and that birds singing, cars driving by, leaves falling, and a cat yawning are all just as much "I" as anything the apparent body does, and none of them are "I". 

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

if you look at what @freeform mentioned about emitting light visibily past 4th Jhana, is it really surprising

 

At 5-7 its rainbow body

8-9 it is light body

 

Im sure you know the traditions view on such things, then you are probably aware, things like the rainbow body are not figurative, they are literal.

 

Relics are often left behind after the rainbow body after al

 

I have 25 years of Dzogchen/Nyingma under my belt, so definitely have heard of those things, and actually witnessed the paranirvana of one of my late teachers. It isn't that I think these things are impossible, but just that linking them to the jhanas doesn't make any sense to me. 

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Working with physical substances, and using conciousness as a means to transmute, alter etc.

 

I also certainly have experience with using substances and altering consciousness. Haha.

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Ive a bit of  insight and experience around death, so for me Ive got a good grasp on the mechanic, and view it differently that most people. Others might not feel the same

 

How so?

 

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I understand the point you are making  

 

_/\_

 

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Anyway i hope either of you  two would let me know if there is a problem.  I am happy to listen to either of you, or the mods  

 

I also hope the person who became very anxious and concerned, has  had their fears put to rest. I definately do not wish to cause anybody any mental anguish, especially anyone who could be easily upset

 

I appreciate your clarification and future caution. _/\_

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

there are some that are mentally ill/ill intentioned. 

 

People often do awful things to each other as a natural consequence.  They are lacking mutual understanding ( empathy ) for each other.   It's not intentional.  The opposite of understanding is not ignorance, it's confusion.  Confusion is fertile ground for delusions, harmful actions, and hateful words.  But the intention is not to do harm to the other individual or individuals.  It's a result of the confusion.  If the confusion is triggered repeatedly, and cannot be ignored, the mind disassociates to a degree. 

 

In most cases, this disassociation is minimal.  The individual is confused about their situation, their mind is reeling, their thoughts ricochet like too many pinballs colliding, the mind disassociates to a realm where their words and deeds have no consequences, and they lash out at the trigger for their confusion.  This is the underlying mechanism which produces mocking and dismissive behavior.  The confused individual begins with empathy.  This empathy ( caring and relating ) is a medium for psychological transference.  The disassociation interrupts the medium of transference and the confused individual stops feeling pressure to understand something which is beyond their capability.  Their mind can relax, and is released to be redirected to other matters.

 

If this phenomena is occurring  between parent and child, the psychological transference is interrupted only in one direction.  The psychological transference from child to parent is interrupted by the parent's disassociation.  The child, however, still cares very-very deeply for their parent.  It is nearly impossible for them to shut that down.  The child is going to feel the disassociation and interpret it as "You don't love me anymore."  This causes it's own very troubling, profound confusion with the child.  The same "pinball" effect.  And this too can produce its own disassociations, into their realm lacking all consequences.  This is called a "temper tantrum."  In adults it's called "rage" or "temporary insanity".   Because the mind is reacting extremely rapidly, both in the parent and the child, neither will realize at the time precisely what is happening in their hearts-and-minds.   They will very likely not identify the thoughts colliding, nor the collisions and the jarring effect it is having without spending a great deal of time examining the machinations of their own psyche.  

 

The point is:  the parent's abuse large and small is often a consequence not if ill will.  It's the opposite.  The parent cares deeply about the child and relates strongly to the well being of the child.  This caring and empathy are the "water" which is "carrying the waves" of influence coming from the child's behavior into the psyche of the parent.  If the parent ad ill will, then, there would be no transference, and they parent would be ambivalent to the child's deeds, words, thoughts, and feelings.  Instead, the parent cares so much, and so deeply, that they are deeply affected by their own lack of understanding such that they must do something, anything, to end their confusion.  Some parents deal with this through dismissive behaviors.  Some parents become depressed.  Many many parents lash out at their children.  It's normal and natural, not that it's good, but, it happens. 

 

I've done things to my children I'm ashamed of.  My daughter, my first, took the brunt of it.  She's fine, thank God.  And I was not an awful parent except for rare occasions.  I learned, I got better, I've apologized, she's forgiven me.  My son had it much easier and much better than she did.  None of this happens in a vacuum.  My own parents were awful to me.  Truly.  So, I can lean on that to help lessen the sting that comes from recollections of who I was, at that time, with a young wild child who has all of my own passion, stubbornness, etc.. But none of it came from ill will.  It came from my extreme care for her which never ends ad is woven deeply within my own consciousness and genetic memory.

 

This is what happens in the majority of cases.  It's not much different in the extreme cases.  There's still a sense of confusion.  Perhaps it's not directly coming from the child-victim.  Perhaps it's coming from other stresses, other factors, other influences.  Certainly mental illness is playing a major role.  But the underlying foundation is the same.  The mind can only tolerate the confusing ricochet so much and for so long.  The world is a very confusing place for people who are mentally ill.  But the mental illness is not necessarily the root cause of the violence.  It's the mind disassociating, naturally, departing to another realm, a realm lacking all consequences, where terrible deeds can be perpetrated lacking any remorse.

 

What happens after the tragic event is equally, if not more, significant when compared to the precipitating event.  After the parent abuses the victim, when they recall the event ( assuming they can remember it ) they will be confronted with an ever more pronounced "pinball" effect in the mind.  Because the mind-and-heart was recently rewarded with relief via disassociating to this other realm, it very easily flips back into this mode.  This is what the mind does.  Each successfully rewarding neural-path is encouraged and facilitated.  The result could be jaded, apathetic, denial, or, it could take the form as further hostility demeaning the child victim.  Most likely it's both.  And this is when it is very difficult to tell the difference between ill-will / lack-of-love for the victim and extreme love, devotion, obsession with the victim.

 

The same phenomena, is happening with the child-victim.  For them, they have their own confusion, their own pinballs which are ricocheting in the mind.  For them, it is much easier to dissociate as well.  It takes a slightly different form, but, there is significant overlapping.  The mind of the child usually finds solace in demonizing the parents, and divorcing themself from the family, for lack of better terms.  The good news is:  children are remarkably flexible and resilient.  They are able to flip-flop between realms rather easily, usually, ( the exceptions are autistic, more often than not ).  This is most easily observed in children's play when they flip flop back and forth between a realm of their imagination and shared-reality.  These sort of conflicts and disassociations encourage the child to leave the home and look for a mate which is outside the family unit and beyond their in-group close-knit-community.  This disassociation has a natural evolutionary advantage.  So, it's good.  The inevitable conflict is beneficial in spite of being painful.  Perfect behavior by all parties, in this case, is the enemy of a good, healthy, and resilient species.

 

My point, which is buried among all of this, is that learning promotes a sort of mutual understanding which helps to makes sense of conflict and reduces confusion if it is approached from a valence of non-judgmental curiosity:  "wondering", which is contrasted with very-judgmental curiosity:  "worrying".  It's still learning.  Same form, same function, same magnitude.  The difference between wonder and worry is not a difference of magnitude.  Less learning doesn't produce wonder, whereas, more learning produces worry.  That's not how it works.  How it works is, imo, the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the DDJ among many-many others.  In my own culture the story of Rabbi Akivah in orchards is what comes to mind.   

 

If it can be deduced, logically, that DDJ48 cannot, in any way be discouraging all types of learning, then a curiosity is naturally produced in the mind.  This curiosity is itself a void, a blank spot, a vessel, a crucible, where ideas are created, almost magically, ex-nihilo, something from nothing.  What is this?  That which is simultaneously reducing and increasing?  What is that?  It's 妙之門.  How does one approach it?  Or even perhaps attain it?  It cannot be with a mind closed to learning.  Does this look closed to you?  

 

門

Edited August 17 by Daniel

[Daniel]

36 minutes ago, Nungali said:

They got into Confusion

 

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

People often do awful things to each other as a natural consequence.  They are lacking mutual understanding ( empathy ) for each other.   It's not intentional.  The opposite of understanding is not ignorance, it's confusion.  Confusion is fertile ground for delusions, harmful actions, and hateful words.  But the intention is not to do harm to the other individual or individuals.  It's a result of the confusion.  If the confusion is triggered repeatedly, and cannot be ignored, the mind disassociates to a degree. 

 

I love it when we agree.  

 

Edited August 17 by Daniel

[Daniel]

20 minutes ago, stirling said:

building an "immortal vehicle

 

^^ Mercavah ^^

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism

 

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I was pretty sure that goes without saying, but a certian individual seemed to be confused when compreheding the posts, and seemed to think otherwise.

 

Bro.  I showed you Freeform's words.  You denied them.  That's on you.

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Maybe with the right enhancements.

 

If the phenomena operates at a quantum scale, the observer effect will very likely interfere.

 

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

This beautiful documentary includes a rare eye-witness account

 

Thank you so much for sharing.  I have this saved for review as time permits.

[Nungali]

24 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

 

I love it when we agree.  

 

 

Nah. YOU love it when you juggle things around out of context in an ATTEMPT  to 'demonstrate '  that you  think that you have shown that someone supports that you where right all along .

 

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

… Confusion instead of Confucius …

 Confucianism/Confusionism 

 

 

Edited August 18 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Meh.  I don't think you are a good judge of this.  For some reason you think your own experiences invalidate others in the form of "Because I'm right you must be wrong."  The world doesn't work that way.  It's as if you're swimming in an ocean denying elephants exist because you can't see them from your current position.

 

It doesn't matter to me anymore.  You have a narrow little half-dimensional outlook.  My hope and desire that you use it in good health, and not cause any unjustified harm.

 

 

Its nothing to do with what i think to be totally honest

 

 @freeform is a personal friend, and we have had discussions outside of whats posted on the main board.

 

We have had  what i consider detailed discussions outside of the public areana

 

I  know exactly what he is talking about.

 

Unless you have had those same discussions, I believe you do not

 

After that, anything you post regarding his words is quite frankly, not representative as regards what he was trying to relay to the public

 

However, I personally suggest you ask him upon his return. .

 

Im  sure he'll be willing to give you a  friendly, but clear definition  as far as what he means is concered (if it was not already clear of course) 

[Daniel]

49 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I  know exactly what he is talking about

 

I don't believe you.  I think you're exaggerating and taking advantage of his absence.  I think your judgement is compromised, and you ignore / deny what doesn't suit you.  

[Daniel]

58 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

anything you post regarding his words is quite frankly, not representative as regards what he was trying to relay to the public

 

Did Freeform declare you his public representative?

 

Lacking that, the man's writing is the clearest most accurate representation.

 

You are not Freeform's minister, preacher, or personal emissary.  There's no need to ride on his coat-tails if what you're saying is true.

 

Edited August 18 by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Nah.

 

No, it's true.  I love it when we agree.  And we did. 

 

You probably hate it when we agree, because, for you, propagating the conflict is more important and rewarding than supporting our friends and contributing to the forum.

[Shadow_self]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I don't believe you.

Fortunately, you do not need to believe me, he left his own words behind for you to read quite literally

 

Hopefully the 3rd one will clear up the issues around whether the light manifesting is visible to the naked eye or not

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

 I think you're exaggerating and taking advantage of his absence. 

 

Im not exaggerating at all, nor was he

 

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

I think your judgement is compromised, and you ignore / deny what doesn't suit you.  

 

My judgement is quite clear actually

 

Ive been exposed to things you have not. Its appears to be bothering you

 

Which is totally ok.

 

I dont mind you accusing me of things