DDJ Chapter 48

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I could have just posted the other pages though

 

Might as well, right?  374-377.

[Daniel]

44 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Theres far better texts worth reading 

 

What do you think of this?  See attached?

 

Gold and cinnabar used for alchemy together.  It represented a unique unity.  Read the summary at the end.  References are provided.  It's a good source, isn't it?

 

Cinnabar.pdf

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You cant "use both"

 

Or... you don't know how to "use" both.

 

Chin-Dahn:

 

 

 

 

Free-Online with a Google Account:

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25130199?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

 

 

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Nungali]

 

Old uses of alchemy both east and west have been historically  fraught with poisonings   In 'modern external metallic alchemy' you can use mercury to get gold . . .   takes 1 kg Mercury to make  0.7 gm of gold though

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

Related:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang–Lao

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Yinfujing

 

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Might as well, right?  374-377.

 

375 is already there, heres the rest

 

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

What do you think of this?  See attached?

 

Gold and cinnabar used for alchemy together.  It represented a unique unity.  Read the summary at the end.  References are provided.  It's a good source, isn't it?

 

Cinnabar.pdf

 

Waidan, not neidan. A topic even more rife with error. Thats why theres so many poisonings. The terms cannot be cross referenced

 

Two pieces of advice that are useful regarding Neidan texts

 

#1 Neidan texts should be read in isolation. The terms are often Polysemous

#2 They are confirmatory texts, not instructional. They are designed to augment the practice as a point of confirmation for practitioners

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Or... you don't know how to "use" both.

 

Chin-Dahn:

 

 

 

 

Free-Online with a Google Account:

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25130199?read-now=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

 

 

 

Its not a case of not knowing how. The elixir in Neidan is cinnabar

 

There are several uses of the term gold

 

Golden coins, Golden Elixir, True Gold, Golden Embryo

 

These all mean different things

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I hear you, but, without the sensory feedback how does one distinguish between dreaming or not?  Between delusional and not?  Between hallucinating and not?

 

There are confirmatory signs, all the way down to physiological changes

 

The point that is being made here is the Po is how the acquired mind is formed, that process needs to rectified, so the way the Po operates needs changing

 

Quote

 

To me, it's the same problem.  It sounds like an error prone technique.  The human animal has evolved such that the sensory feedback is highly accurate.  While I acknowledge that bias, preference, and especially expectation, are shaping the interpretation of sensory feedback, at the same time I cannot ignore that messing with it, for lack of better words, without a known good reliable credible replacement, fail-over technique, is trading one problem for a whole host of others. 

 

Or its highly inaccurate, and the sensory system has further narrowed our awareness and perception to the point we can only percieve the physical realm, and our inability to move past that keeps us oveindulged, obsessed, constantly gathering the karmic weight from the process of accumulation which keeps us coming back over and over

 

There is a reason that all spiritual traditions involve cutting of desires and stimulation via the senses. One that is not immediately obvious to someone without the knowledge of how such things operate

 

Quote

"The devil you know is better, than the devil you don't know?"

 

And since I've experienced the same thing without doing the reversing of the senses, I'm needing a bit more incentive and a lot more information.  But that's me.  Just me.

 

 

And respectifully, you may have to look elsewhere im afraid, im already tethering the edges of what I should say

 

 

Quote

Yes.  I like life.  I'm perfectly happy returning, if that's my destiny.  Especially if I lay a nice foundation for my return.

 

For almost everyone, laying the foundations for future incarnations would be the point yes. Its a rare few that get beyond that

 

Quote

Aren't the immortals often written about as angry and frustrated with their lack of a physical body?  The malicious ones are described insistent on finding a physical host?  I have always been confused by the the desire for humans to escape this bountiful existence if we can co-exist in both realms... simultaneously.

 

 

You are not thinking of the immortals, you are thinking of the realm of the jealous dieties, that are one layer above humanity. Its also called the Asura realm

 

The reason they are frustrated/jealous, is because without incarnation, they cannot really process karma, and are in a kind of limbo state.

 

People who practice certain forms of magic and shamanism call upon these beings, unaware that a process of karmic transferance is inherent.

 

Theres a reason they are willing to help, and its not always benevolent  

Edited August 14 by Shadow_self

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

In fact, the word cinnabar isnt even used in the pages  she quoted

 

It is.

 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

A suggestion i often find helpful is not to depend on authors if you really want to understand this topic deeply.

 

Too many misunderstanings and a lack of realization that context is key. The use heuristsics too often,a nd as a result join dots

 

I agree with this.  100%.  With an exception.  I rely on the original text, in the original language, as an expression of the will of the author. 

 

At this point in our discussion you're saying:  "You can't, and, it doesn't exist."  (  connecting to "spirit" as referenced in the Freeform's posts via simultaneity ).  Since I've done it myself, naturally, I object to this.  And since there are academic authors writing about it, that supports my own personal experiences.  There appears to have been some rather wise and respected individuals in China around 300BCE doing the same thing.  That also supports my experiences.  Based on your writing, we both approached /experienced the same thing.  That also supports my experiences, but, with a very important implication.

 

If we both experienced the same thing, but approached it from opposite directions, that means the path is not linear.  It's circular.  ~nods~  Yes.  Circular.  Even if what I'm describing is the "wrong" way, if the path is circular, all that's needed is perseverance.  Both paths are leading to the same destination.  That's why my objections to what you had written were cleared as soon as I understood what you were describing.  You're the 4th person I've met who has had a credible repeatable experience similar to mine.  All 4 of us are walking different paths, yet, we're all approaching the same destination.  That tells me the path is not only circular, it's spherical.  And if it's spherical, there are many many different paths all leading to the same destination.  This conclusion is coming from personal experience, but it is also supported by a "mystery school" in my own culture.  I cannot deny the very rewarding self-validation that is produced by this conclusion.  I am biased.  It's foolish to deny it.  However, it would be insane for me to ignore my own personal experiences and the personal experiences of my trusted friends which are perfectly in line with what has been taught, teacher-to-student, teacher-to-student, teacher-to-student, in an unbroken chain of transmission as captured in the written word.

 

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Shadow_self]

13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

It is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to be honest. You are  heading down a road of confusing yourself.

 

In addition to cross referenicng, I am also going to recommend you do not isolate and cherry pick chinese characters unless you want to be swimming in a  complete minefield of confusion.  You have no idea how often than character shows up out of context

 

It is contextual, and unless you understand the context, you wont understand why it is there

 

Im not at liberty to tell you what yellow sprouts actually is, but it is not cinnabar. Not at all.
 

It is however related to the cinnabar field (dan tien) , and a different ingredient in the elixir.

 

Cinnabar =  Original Spirit. It is the pill. it is the elixir, the Dan, That is what it is. The end product

 

Thats why the character keeps showing up, becaues of the word elixir

 

This conversation is also reducing my willingness to share anything further, because it is getting to the point where i keep having to repeat the same thing over and over

 

If you dont want to accept it thats  honestly ok, no problem

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

There is a reason that all spiritual traditions involve cutting of desires and stimulation via the senses.

 

Bro, that's not true.  Not all spiritual traditions.  This is where it starts sounding Christian. 

 

"None can get to the father except through me"

"None can get to spirit except through cutting of desires and stimulation."

 

The only way to make this sort of all inclusive assertion is if the individual is literally omniscient.  You've said it's rare.  If you have access to an individual ( guru ) claiming omniscience.  It's easy to put that to the test. 

 

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Its not a case of not knowing how. The elixir in Neidan is cinnabar

 

Uh-huh.  Cinnabar is necessary.  For a golden elixir, both gold and cinnabar are needed simultaneously.

 

Quote

There are several uses of the term gold

 

Golden coins, Golden Elixir, True Gold, Golden Embryo

 

These all mean different things

 

Did you read the article?  It's only 6 pages long.  It very clearly is connected to what you are describing.  However it's interesting that your diagram lists Li as Yang.  Cinnabar as an elixir, a medium, would be Yin.

 

 

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Daniel]

34 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I'm going to be honest. You are  heading down a road of confusing yourself.

 

Nonsense.  I'm collecting data. 

 

34 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

In addition to cross referenicng, I am also going to recommend you do not isolate and cherry pick chinese characters unless you want to be swimming in a  complete minefield of confusion.  You have no idea how often than character shows up out of context

 

The context is inner alchemy.   Nothing is being taken out of context.  You're missing the point.  You rebuked Livia Kohn.  You were wrong to do so in the manner which you did.  She did not misquote the text.  She did not take it out of context.  You don't like it.  You don't like her writing.  Of course not.  She's writing from a different perspective which is oppositional to yours.  That's all.  Your objections at this point are your own personal preferences.  I refer you back to Freeform's words since you respect them.

 

On 11/15/2022 at 7:51 AM, freeform said:

It means developing non-preference. 
 

This is the aim

 

Something to note from the wiki entry on Huang-Lao.  They are focused on immortality in contradistinction to the school of thought emerging from the Zhuangzi.   Are you following my train of thought?   This happens all the time.  People start with a text that they like, because it resonates with them.  Then they interpret other texts through the lens of the first.  In this case, the DDJ is being interpreted through your particular lens, which is fine.  The problem arises when a declaration is made: "This is the only correct way.  I know the way.  There is no other way."  That's not Daoist.  That's Christian.  

 

Edited August 14 by Daniel

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Uh-huh.  Cinnabar is necessary.  For a golden elixir, both gold and cinnabar are needed simultaneously.

 

The Dan is not an ingredient in the Dan.  The Dan is the end product

 

I have to be honest , if you cant name all the ingredients of the eilixir, classicaly and what they actually are practically, then this conversation isnt going to go anywhere beneficial

 

I dont think you'll be able to, so further discussion is not going to be of much use to either party

 

Quote

 

Did you read the article?  It's only 6 pages long.  It very clearly is connected to what you are describing.  However it's interesting that your diagram lists Li as Yang.  Cinnabar as an elixir, a medium, would be Yin.

 

 Cinnabar is Pure Yang, not Yin

 

Quote

 

 

Taoist texts knows why i used that image. It was just to see if he was referring to Water  or True Yang. Thats all.

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

Nonsense.  I'm collecting data. 

 

Sure, If you say so.

 

Quote

 

The context is inner alchemy.   Nothing is being taken out of context.  You're missing the point.  You rebuked Livia Kohn.  You were wrong to do so in the manner which you did.  She did not misquote the text.  She did not take it out of context.  You don't like it.  You don't like her writing.  Of course not.  She's writing from a different perspective which is oppositional to yours.  That's all.  Your objections at this point are your own personal preferences.  I refer you back to Freeform's words since you respect them.

 

 

Im not missing the point, and theres nothing wrong about what I stated. 

 

I think if freeform  ever returns you should ask him if my statements are "personal preference" or based on developments in the practice based on methods and instructions by teachers with attainments

 

Im sure he'd be happy to give you some insight into the matter

 

But i  really dont mind whether you believe him or me to be honest  Its not for your benefit im posting.. Just filling a gap he's left as best I can do

 

Quote

Something to note from the wiki entry on Huang-Lao.  They are focused on immortality in contradistinction to the school of thought emerging from the Zhuangzi.   Are you following my train of thought?   This happens all the time.  People start with a text that they like, because it resonates with them.  Then they interpret other texts through the lens of the first.  In this case, the DDJ is being interpreted through your particular lens, which is fine.  The problem arises when a declaration is made: "This is the only correct way.  I know the way.  There is no other way."  That's not Daoist.  That's Christian.  

 

Honestly, I dont use  texts  nor do I prefer one, 

 

I have teachers  (three), who have attainments in the practice (two in neigong/neidan, one in another lesser known form). They are my source. I never interpret practices based on the other, I do them in isolation despite the large degree of crossover

 

For people using the DDJ to practice as originally intended, there is no intepretation, its very mechanical. It has to be so it has repeatability

 

Anyone ive met who relyed on texts without instruction, quite honestly, misundertood what the purpose of  them was, and  because of that, ended up somewhat confused

 

But if thats what someone wants to do who am I to stand in the way?  I really do not mind at all. Thats really up to them how they wish to use their time and invest their energy

 

I like to help people who want help learning,  but I am going to leave this conversation now. Theres a line I have where helping people is concerned.  I've crossed it repeatedly at this point

 

Peace to you  

Edited August 14 by Shadow_self

[Sahaja]

Another translation of 48

 

Those who pursue study increase daily.
Those who pursue the Dao decrease daily.
They decrease and decrease until they reach a point where they act non-intentionally.
They act non-intentionally and nothing is left undone.
To gain the world, one must constantly perform non-intentional projects.
If someone performs intentional projects, he becomes unworthy of gaining the
world.

 

Thomas Michael

Associate professor of philosophy Beijing Normal University

 

his view is that there are three main later interpretations of the DDJ  - through a Confucian lense , a Daoist religious lense and a Yang Sheng view. He feels that the Yang Sheng view is the most accurate one    He would sayDDJ is a text describing views of a reclusive early Daoist group focused on Yang Sheng practices.  Zuowang is more the subject of Zhuangzhi than the DDJ in his view. 
 

He views De in Dao De Jing as the Dao in each of us a in the form of the circulation of the qi. 
 

all these views carry a lot of assumptions (including all the “experts” here on Daobums), but I find his quite intriguing, particularly for an academic from the university of Chicago teaching in China.. He makes good arguments around how later commentaries (which drive a lot of what we think we know about the DDJ)  carried their own spin for their own reasons. 
 

he has two books on Scribd and lots of papers floating around on academic paper websites  Check him out. 

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Or its highly inaccurate, and the sensory system has further narrowed our awareness and perception to the point we can only percieve the physical realm, and our inability to move past that

 

Good.  The inaccurate system is narrow.

 

Ask yourself?  Among the two of us, which one is holding to a narrow perspective?  Which one is more inclusive?

 

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Waidan, not neidan

 

Why make this into either/or?

 

I think ( I sincerely hope ) we both agree the two are interrelated.  If not, which one of us is narrowing their perception?

[Forestgreen]

30 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Why make this into either/or?

Because there is a difference between a text where the meaning is slightly hidden, and a text that can mean whatever the reader fancies?

Although I must admit, looking at some of these old texts and commentaries to them, gibberish is the norm. 

 

Thankfully, the confirmatory bias is strong in me.

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Because there is a difference between a text where the meaning is slightly hidden, and a text that can mean whatever the reader fancies?

 

Probably why the texts were left as confirmatory guides for the lineages with an orally transmitted glossary to explain the gibberish 

 

[Cobie]

Very different opinions re Ch 48: 

 

On 12/08/2024 at 10:30 PM, Shadow_self said:

… is discussing the practice of  Zuowang 坐忘 …

 

On 12/08/2024 at 11:00 PM, Daniel said:

… is emphasizing a simultaneous accumulation-and-reduction.  …

 

Neither of them can read Classical Chinese, enough said.

 

On 12/08/2024 at 11:02 PM, ChiDragon said:

… The hidden message was: If you learn more and more, then you will accumulate more knowledge by the day. Learning the principles of Tao that we will reduce our desires more and more by the day. …

 

On 13/08/2024 at 6:46 AM, Taoist Texts said:

… it is about two kinds of rulers ... those who rule … with … ever increasing administrative interference; 

- and … those who rule by intentionally decreasing the administrative interference until there is a total non-doing 

Both can read Classical Chinese. Both seem to be pretty certain their translation is the only right one. So … ?

 

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

… a text that can mean whatever the reader fancies? …

 

Yes, so my Chinese teacher told me. It was a cultural thing, the priority was ‘harmony’. Be ambiguous and let the context decide.  Idk. 
 

 

Edited August 15 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Neither of them can read Classical Chinese.

 

What I wrote is coming from reading the Classical Chinese.

 

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

enough said.

 

A couple of Chinese speakers in this thread agree with me.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Both can read Classical Chinese. Both seem to be pretty certain their translation is the only right one. So … ?

 

The text very likely is expressing two (or more) related ideas in the same verse.  This is not uncommon for poetry.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Confusion is a natural consequence of avoiding learning.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Because there is a difference between a text where the meaning is slightly hidden, and a text that can mean whatever the reader fancies?

 

Ignoring the text, Neidan and Waidan are interrelated?  Yes or No?  That is the question.