Forgiveness

[johndoe2012]

I had accumulated resentment, it was completely unbearable so I had to forgive. 

 

Hopefully someone will find it useful 

 

 

[Tommy]

Forgiveness is not as easy as saying "I forgive you". It takes acceptance for the actions that happened. It takes letting go of the actions done to one. It isn't easy to let go.

[doc benway]

I once watched a film about forgiveness that was very profound and moving but disturbing - Rubaru Roshni by Svati Chakravarty Bhatkal. Highly recommended!

[old3bob]

can also become a slippery slope of misplaced or one sided idealism,  (that could be taken advantage of per repetitions of or variations of an offense if a two way street of wise interactions are not included at some point)

Edited August 28, 2024 by old3bob

[johndoe2012]

On 27.8.2024 at 10:31 PM, Tommy said:

Forgiveness is not as easy as saying "I forgive you". It takes acceptance for the actions that happened. It takes letting go of the actions done to one. It isn't easy to let go.

 

You are right but what is the alternative? 

 

Holding on to resentment towards the other destroys your peace of mind. Better to let go. 

[johndoe2012]

On 28.8.2024 at 10:45 AM, old3bob said:

can also become a slippery slope of misplaced or one sided idealism,  (that could be taken advantage of per repetitions of or variations of an offense if a two way street of wise interactions are not included at some point)

 

Yes. Dumb forgiveness, becoming a push over and people pleaser just to get peace. 

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

You are right but what is the alternative? 

 

Holding on to resentment towards the other destroys your peace of mind. Better to let go. 

It isn't just resentment. It also has the memories of the actions that was done to one. It is hard to let go of trauma and blame. Yes, better to let it go. Easier said than done. My family has a line of dementia. Am looking forward to forgetting things that has happened and becoming a new person. LOL. What we are is .. the accumulation of all we have thought. To see where we are now, we look to the past. To see where we will go, we look at the present. To forgive requires change in oneself. To overcome the habits that we have grown into.

[johndoe2012]

42 minutes ago, Tommy said:

It isn't just resentment. It also has the memories of the actions that was done to one. It is hard to let go of trauma and blame. Yes, better to let it go. Easier said than done. My family has a line of dementia. Am looking forward to forgetting things that has happened and becoming a new person. LOL. What we are is .. the accumulation of all we have thought. To see where we are now, we look to the past. To see where we will go, we look at the present. To forgive requires change in oneself. To overcome the habits that we have grown into.

 

Lol. 

 

Yes difficult to let go... If very difficult this meditation is not enough. 

 

Although I find it powerful in the sense that it dissolved part of the sense of self. 

 

Trauma can run very deep. I still carry wounds from something that happened more than 40 years ago. Letting go all the time in different ways to be free of that. 

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

… Dumb forgiveness, becoming a push over and people pleaser just to get peace. 

Yes, I prefer, “fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me“ (idiom). Also to be considered imo, when does it become ‘aiding and abetting’.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by Cobie

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

Yes, I prefer, “fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me“ (idiom). Also to be considered imo, when does it become ‘aiding and abetting’.

 

 

 

In my view forgiveness is not about letting people fool you.

 

It's more about understanding why someone tried to fool you, e.g. that this may had been a coping mechanism they developed to survive in a tough environment in the past.

Btw I'm not saying this cancels personal responsibility, or all is good because he/she had a difficult childhood, but understanding that there are causal links of events that make some behaviours likely.

 

Then perhaps forgiving is forgiving them for not doing the hard work of changing these patterns that may had helped them survive once but are no longer needed for their survival in their relationships.

 

So in my view, forgiving is about accepting the human condition.

Edited September 5, 2024 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

Perhaps a way to see it is that snake is biting us not because it is bad - concepts of ethics like good or bad are not a good framework to describe what is happening, it simply bites us because of its instincts.

Now, we may understand that the snake is simply following its instincts and perhaps not be angry at the snake, as well as understand that good/evil is not a good framework to cast this but this doesn't mean we'll stay close to venomous snakes. This is a state of "snake-forgiveness".

[Tommy]

On 9/5/2024 at 4:23 AM, snowymountains said:

Perhaps a way to see it is that snake is biting us not because it is bad - concepts of ethics like good or bad are not a good framework to describe what is happening, it simply bites us because of its instincts.

Now, we may understand that the snake is simply following its instincts and perhaps not be angry at the snake, as well as understand that good/evil is not a good framework to cast this but this doesn't mean we'll stay close to venomous snakes. This is a state of "snake-forgiveness".

That reminds me of the story of the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion asked the frog to give him a lift across the pond. The frog said no because the scorpion would sting him and he would die. The scorpion said if that happened then they would both die. So, the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the pond. Along the way, the scorpion stung the frog. The frog ask why did you do that cause now we both will die. The scorpion said do not blame me because it is my instinct to do so. What does this mean???

[snowymountains]

15 hours ago, Tommy said:

That reminds me of the story of the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion asked the frog to give him a lift across the pond. The frog said no because the scorpion would sting him and he would die. The scorpion said if that happened then they would both die. So, the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the pond. Along the way, the scorpion stung the frog. The frog ask why did you do that cause now we both will die. The scorpion said do not blame me because it is my instinct to do so. What does this mean???

 

It means understand why a behaviour is happening, forgive/don't cast it into a good/evil framework - for your peace of mind but also protect your self from the said behaviour.

[old3bob]

karma per-se does not "forgive" per any human standards....but it can be mitigated by human acts. (or divine acts)

[Tommy]

I don't know what Karma has to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is a conscious act which frees us from the memories and emotions connected with an event in our lives. When one apologizes for an act, it doesn't necessarily remove the act from the minds who suffer from it. It might be a beginning to move toward forgiveness??

 

When a person can not find that forgiveness then those events hold sway upon the mind. It comes back to make the events happen again. The emotion and feelings trigger the mind to suffer again. It is such a difficult thing to do, To find forgiveness in oneself.

 

 

[Lairg]

6 hours ago, Tommy said:

I don't know what Karma has to do with forgiveness.

 

What is the intent that drives karma?   What is the greater system attempting to achieve?

 

In the first manifestation of this galaxy it is said that the galactic Logos (whose body is the galaxy) was learning the use of intelligent energy.  In those times that was the primary spirituality for soul-bearing species

 

In this second incarnation as a galaxy, the galactic Logos seems to be learning right relationship.  Hence the common saying: our god is a god of love.

 

There are internal intelligences of the galaxy that drive right relationship and generate pressure on lesser intelligences (such as humans) to learn and conform.

 

The learning pressure, in human society, is often referred to as karma.   

 

There are many social expressions of this: for example:  As you sow, so shall you reap.

 

Once the human reaches first stage enlightenment it is possible for conversation with the intelligences that manage karmic processes.   These intelligences are named in various societies for example "the recording angel" and "the lipika lords".

 

Lipika (devanāgarī: लिपिक) is a Sanskrit word that means "scribe". In Hindu thought the lipikas (also referred to as the four Maharājas) are gods that regulate Karma.

https://theosophy.wiki/en/Lipika

 

As the human progresses through the stages of enlightenment, it is possible to negotiate with the lords of karma.   Forgiveness is often an important precondition.

 

Group karma is more flexible than personal karma, as the learning process can occur anywhere in the group.  Group karma follows lines of least resistance and it is often possible to negotiate another path.

 

My observation is that what humans call karma is experienced as discomfort in the light body of the galactic Logos.  The Lords of Karma operate to reduce the discomfort.

 

Who can test such propositions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2 by Lairg

[Tommy]

What is the intent of Karma?

So as ye sow, so shall ye reap.

 

I do not believe Karma to be an agency of justice. It has no such mind. But reminds me of the force of momentum. Live by the sword then die by the sword. Plant an apple seed and an apple tree will grow.

 

So how does that work with forgiveness? Yes, I have an inkling. But, would like to learn more.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

I do not believe Karma to be an agency of justice. It has no such mind

 

Beliefs seem to me to be hypotheses awaiting experiment.

 

My observation as indicated above is that karma is not about justice but about reducing discomfort in the light body of the enveloping cosmic entity

 

As for the Lords of Karma not having mind, they might disagree.

 

Once in meditation I met an entity that I knew and asked him how intelligent I was compared to him.  He instantly replied 9%

 

After that I was not too quick to judge the intelligence of non-humans

 

 

[Tommy]

On 3/3/2025 at 2:40 AM, Lairg said:

 

Beliefs seem to me to be hypotheses awaiting experiment.

 

My observation as indicated above is that karma is not about justice but about reducing discomfort in the light body of the enveloping cosmic entity

 

As for the Lords of Karma not having mind, they might disagree.

 

Once in meditation I met an entity that I knew and asked him how intelligent I was compared to him.  He instantly replied 9%

 

After that I was not too quick to judge the intelligence of non-humans

 

 

Lords of Karma?

 

"Mystically, these Divine Beings are connected with Karma, the Law of Retribution, for they are the Recorders or Annalists who impress on the (to us) invisible tablets of the Astral Light “the great picture-gallery of eternity” — a faithful record of every act, and even thought, of man, of all that was, is, or ever will be, in the phenomenal Universe."

Copied from https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/lords-karma

 

Again with The law of retribution? Justice? Where are these Karmic actions recorded and how are the retributions dealt out? Sorry, just not comfortable with this.

 

When an asteroid going thru space hits a planet with life. It destroys most of the life on the planet. Does that mean the life on the planet was evil and deserved the asteroid to kill them? What did that life do wrong to have an asteroid kill them? Or was that an evil God who sent the asteroid and so that evil God will have his own retribution? Or was that just a reduction in discomfort? Maybe it was the living beings that were evil and deserved to be killed? 

Spoiler

The history of the earth. 65 million years ago an asteroid hit the earth and killed the dinosaurs. 

 

I am sorry. Lords of Karma is still new to me. And I tend to not take new information without some sort of ... practicality?? I do not believe in an agency or mind that holds justice or writes down karmic actions or cosmic retribution. Rather that it may be closer to being like a momentum or force or even like time. Time does not care if a vase or dish is falling. It will continue to fal until it hit the floor and maybe break. Time holds no feelings or mind or retribution or justice. It just flows from what comes before.  It is a consequence of the actions that arose before it. And of course, I am probably wrong. Many disagree with me. They say things like I am 9% as smart as they are. But, whether they say the truth or a lie, I do not know. I am still stuck on the question of MU. 

Edited March 4 by Tommy

[Lairg]

My observation is that karma is not about justice but about learning right relationship.

 

As a result, a polite request to the relevant Lords of Karma may result in the karmic energy (learning requirement)  being moved to another part of the group

 

 

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Tommy said:

Lords of Karma?

 

"Mystically, these Divine Beings are connected with Karma, the Law of Retribution, for they are the Recorders or Annalists who impress on the (to us) invisible tablets of the Astral Light “the great picture-gallery of eternity” — a faithful record of every act, and even thought, of man, of all that was, is, or ever will be, in the phenomenal Universe."

Copied from https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/lords-karma

 

Again with The law of retribution? Justice? Where are these Karmic actions recorded and how are the retributions dealt out? Sorry, just not comfortable with this.

 

I don't buy it either. Ironically the story of "Lords of Karma" and a "Law of Retribution" would simply contribute to more self made suffering. 

 

You can stop generating karma. You can work with and dissolve enough of your karma to eventually see that YOU were the creator of it all, and that it only exists because you are constantly telling your story about reality and creating suffering for yourself. What happens if you stop blowing up an untied balloon... it goes flat. Same with your karma. The only person torturing you with your karma is you.

[Tommy]

Karma isn't an agency for retribution or justice. As for as I know, Karma is just a way for patterns of energy to travel from one place to another. It is mysterious and shows up when the conditions are right for it. Or could remain dormant. I do not know what governs it.

 

Ignorance and cravings are said to be the reason one creates more Karma. My ignorance of the ultimate truth versus my knowledge of conventional truth remains unchanged. Cravings are high as I still feel very human. Yeah, I am creating my own Karma. The balloon gets larger. IDK.

 

What I do know is that wisdom and compassion are like lights in the universe. Sometimes hard to find but when they show, life gets better for everyone.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Karma is just a way for patterns of energy to travel from one place to another.

 

 

Many years ago I had a long dream about being in a prison camp.  Someone disobeyed the rules but I was punished.

 

I woke up feeling it was quite unfair.  When I asked in meditation I was told that when someone in a group offends, it does not matter who in the group is punished.

 

Many years later that is still my observation.  This means that group karma can be reassigned within the group - sometimes on request

 

Personal karma has to be dealt with directly - typically by forgiving oneself and the other parties.  When the learnings are achieved, mostly the personal karma is resolved.   The alternative is growing out of that level of consciousness so that the denser energies are discarded and the learnings are no longer relevant

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tommy]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

Many years ago I had a long dream about being in a prison camp.  Someone disobeyed the rules but I was punished.

 

I woke up feeling it was quite unfair.  When I asked in meditation I was told that when someone in a group offends, it does not matter who in the group is punished.

 

Many years later that is still my observation.  This means that group karma can be reassigned within the group - sometimes on request

 

Personal karma has to be dealt with directly - typically by forgiving oneself and the other parties.  When the learnings are achieved, mostly the personal karma is resolved.   The alternative is growing out of that level of consciousness so that the denser energies are discarded and the learnings are no longer relevant

You seem to have this all thought out. Group or personal Karma? Me? I believe that Karma is more like energy patterns. And since we are all connected in one way or another then Karma will release it's energy in the most expedient way possible. No one being is special. Well, that is in my opinion. Of course I could be wrong.

[Lairg]

14 hours ago, Tommy said:

I believe that Karma is more like energy patterns.

 

When I see the energy of personal karma, if the karma is slight, it appears to me as a grey lunar arc from the left shoulder flowing outward and connecting back to the left hip.

 

When the person deals with the personal karma, immediately that arc is gone.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by Lairg