Experience is what is needed

[stirling]

Quote

"The trouble with students these days is that they seize on words and form their understanding on that basis. In a big notebook they copy down the sayings of some worthless old fellow, wrapping it up in three layers, five layers of carrying cloth, not letting anyone else see it, calling it the 'Dark Meaning' and guarding it as something precious. What a mistake! Blind fools, what sort of juice do they expect to get out of old dried bones?" - Lin-Chi, Ch'an Master, 7th Ct.

 

So many people try to use the intellect to understand realization, picking apart and recombining, interpreting based on dualistic ideas. It is still a path, but a long one where it takes the realization that it is headed nowhere to pick up the pieces and begin from square one, in this moment. 

 

The path becomes clear with practice and experience only. The realization of how things are is ONLY experiential. It is actually quite simple conceptually, but no amount of intellectual energy will tease it apart or reveal it. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

So many people try to use the intellect to understand realization, picking apart and recombining, interpreting based on dualistic ideas. It is still a path, but a long one where it takes the realization that it is headed nowhere to pick up the pieces and begin from square one, in this moment. 

 

The path becomes clear with practice and experience only. The realization of how things are is ONLY experiential. It is actually quite simple conceptually, but no amount of intellectual energy will tease it apart or reveal it. 

 

Complexity is the signature of the current times as far as I can see

 

 

[Tommy]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

So many people try to use the intellect to understand realization, picking apart and recombining, interpreting based on dualistic ideas. It is still a path, but a long one where it takes the realization that it is headed nowhere to pick up the pieces and begin from square one, in this moment. 

 

The path becomes clear with practice and experience only. The realization of how things are is ONLY experiential. It is actually quite simple conceptually, but no amount of intellectual energy will tease it apart or reveal it. 

This may be true to the extent that realization is not understandable by this mind but it is this mind that makes the effort to move forward along this path. Even though this intellectual understanding doesn't provide the experiential understanding, it is a beginning. Much like suffering is a motivation to seek the path from suffering. I do not say what is being done is right. Just that it is how most begin.

 

After all, it is this mind that gives us the ability to understand concepts and practice what must seemingly be impossible. To remove the defilements from our true selves. To wipe clear the mirror clean. Of course, there is no mirror and we are just what we are. Something in me that is part of you. Okay, I do not make sense. But, humans make do with lots of paradoxes just to make things work.

 

Note: I understand your point. Starting again from this moment.

Edited August 15 by Tommy

[tao.te.kat]

> The realization of how things are is ONLY experiential. It is actually quite simple conceptually,

 

In fact is devoid of conceptuality. It's just experiental. When you say a word about it you start lying. But it's a needed skilfull mean to help others.

 

As said manytimes, you can read books about how to ride a bike, it's nice and even can be useful. But still not a even a begining of the process of learning to ride. Or a preparatory stage if you want.

 

Riding a bike is devoid of conceptuality, it's an experiential training. Many people just need a very short explanation and then practice to ride it quite well but a book can help too. 

 

Realizing the nature of your mind it's not very different.

 

Also my experience with people with a lot of theoretical knowledge is that they usually have their "cup quite full" so it's really difficult for them to relay on not-so-erudite people but maybe with a lot more practical knowledge, They see them as too rough or rudimentary, so they will not accept advice from them.

 

Usually at forums that's quite clear because the "winner" of a debate it's mostly the more erudite (or the one with more time to spend :D) As you cannot bring your experience to a forum at all but your erudition will shine bright.

 

 

 

[Tommy]

Can you suggest a method for moving forward to having this experience so we can understand???

Or,  can there actually be 88 thousand methods of arriving at Nirvana?

 

I have heard stories of people who go to Sesshin and put in mega effort to have a Kensho experience. Some do and some don't have Kensho. Do you suggest we spend the time in such places to put in such efforts? And will it work for me? LOL. A rubbing hand on the back of my bald head. I do not wish for it as I do enjoy the ride. It is all a dance of life. Well, good nite all.

 

 

[tao.te.kat]

> Can you suggest a method for moving forward to having this experience so we can understand???

> Or,  can there actually be 88 thousand methods of arriving at Nirvana?

 

There're 84.000 and we can only suggest one (or none). Because one only walk the path once.

 

Anyone claiming he knows well about two paths is lying or too innocent as you cannot realize the nature of mind twice.

 

> I have heard stories of people who go to Sesshin and put in mega effort to have a Kensho experience. Some do and some don't have Kensho.

 

More of them will not have kensho for lack of prajna in Zen dojos (at least the ones I know). It's not a question of effort at all. Effort can even be an hindrance if it's a subtle (or strong) attachment to results.

 

> Do you suggest we spend the time in such places to put in such efforts? And will it work for me? LOL.

 

You can be there. They do right things. The problem is the things they dont do. Mostly prajna. Also right mindfulness all the time is probably more important than zazen before kensho, so they're a bit twisted.

 

> A rubbing hand on the back of my bald head. I do not wish for it as I do enjoy the ride. It is all a dance of life. Well, good nite all.

 

Thart's so nice, Observe your mind, create a nice life where cultivate Dharma with the paramitas and contenment and understand deeply the buddhist teachings in yourself. Doubt about what you are. Find out your own auto-created mind tricks. Be the best knower of yourself. 

 

Best wishes.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:28 PM, Tommy said:

 

Can you suggest a method for moving forward to having this experience so we can understand???

Or,  can there actually be 88 thousand methods of arriving at Nirvana?

 

I have heard stories of people who go to Sesshin and put in mega effort to have a Kensho experience. Some do and some don't have Kensho. Do you suggest we spend the time in such places to put in such efforts? And will it work for me? LOL. A rubbing hand on the back of my bald head. I do not wish for it as I do enjoy the ride. It is all a dance of life. Well, good nite all.

 

 

 

 

From an up-coming post on my own site:

 

Gautama equated “right concentration” with “one-pointedness”, or “one-pointedness of mind:

 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components, this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

 

(MN III 117 © Pali Text Society vol III p 114; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

 

The difficulty is that “one-pointedness of mind” is taken by different people in the modern Buddhist community to mean different things. The Theravadin teacher Thanissaro Bhikkyu, for example, has disputed that the term could actually refer to the mind as a singular point, and instead posits that the reference is to a singular object of attention:

 

A Pali sutta, MN 44, defines concentration as cittass’ek’aggatā, which is often translated as “one-pointedness of mind”: cittassa = “of the mind” or “of the heart,” eka = one, agga = point, -tā = -ness. MN 117 defines noble right concentration as any one-pointedness of mind supported by the first seven factors of the noble path, from right view through right mindfulness. MN 43 states further that one-pointedness is a factor of the first jhāna, the beginning level of right concentration.

 

From these passages, it has been argued that if one’s awareness in concentration or jhāna is truly one-pointed, it should be no larger than a point, which means that it would be incapable of thinking, of hearing sounds, or even of being aware of the physical body. However, this interpretation imposes too narrow a meaning on the word ek’aggatā, one that is foreign to the linguistic usage of the Pali Canon.

 

… (Thanissaro concludes:  ) Show your lack of contempt for your meditation object by giving it your full attention and mastering concentration… Gather the mind around its one object.

 

(https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/CrossIndexed/Uncollected/MiscEssays/OnePointed160822.pdf)

 

 

In my experience, “one-pointedness” has more to do with the sense of self than with a “meditation object”. Healthy persons perceive their self as being in only one place at a time. There are instances in the medical record of persons who experienced themselves as being in two places at once (apparently a dysfunction in the coordination of certain sense organs), but that’s rare.

 

I would contend that the sense of a location of self is the sense of the location of consciousness. A teacher in modern India, Nisargadatta, described the self as “the consciousness in the body”:
 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness.

 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality])

 

 

He went on to say:

 

Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

 

(ibid)

 

 

Gautama described how a person “lays hold of one-pointedness”:

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.   

 

(SN 48.10, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for “Aryan”)

 

 

A person “lays hold of one-pointedness” by maintaining a presence of mind with the location of consciousness, yet such a presence of mind is really only possible through “making self-surrender the object of thought”, because the location of consciousness can move.  

 

The modern Zen teacher Koan Franz spoke of “letting the base of your consciousness move away from your head”, and drew a sharp contrast between “letting the base of your consciousness move” and Thanissaro’s “giving (a meditation object) your full attention”:

 

So (in zazen), have your hands… palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your center of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

(“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site; explanatory parenthetical added.
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

“An act of letting go”—that accords well with “making self-surrender the object of thought”.

 

Shunryu Suzuki said:

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 (edited by Bill Redican)

 

 

My advice for those who are unfamiliar with “one-pointedness” would be to look for the mind to move away from the head in the moments before falling asleep, then allow for that same freedom of movement in seated meditation.

 

 

From a prior post on my site:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

... I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

 

("Take the Backward Step")

 

 

Edited October 6 by Mark Foote

[Tommy]

I always thought it was "One pointed concentration" not "one pointedness of mind". The mind is what it is. It arises with thought for most people. What is one pointedness of mind? One pointed concentration is for the mind to be focused upon one singular point. Maybe i got it wrong but it makes sense to me?

 

Jumping from one person to another, no matter they be Zen masters or enlightened ones, you lose the meaning cause each has their own way of expressions. They have their own words to describe the issue at hand. Meaning lost in the translation and the time of the culture for which it was expressed. Not saying you are wrong. But, it sounds like soup with too many ingredients. Can you still call it soup?

[tao.te.kat]

>you lose the meaning cause each has their own way of expressions. 

 

That's quite important and not many people is aware of it: different spiritual schools give different meanings to the same word. Even inside buddhism. Even inside Mahayana. Even inside Zen.

 

That's one of the reasons mixing schools is a complete mess.

 

And on the other side, one of the things you should do about your school is understanding exactly what is meant for every technical word they use. And it's not that easy even for one school. Mostly when talking about inner experiences and mind. Usually your first idea about what they mean is wrong. You always have to have had the experience before and have enough discrimination to map it right.

 

Not easy even when not mixing schools. That's a very important factor to success.

 

Before that you're basically a blind person who thinks he sees.

 

Best wishes

Edited October 7 by tao.te.kat

[Mark Foote]

19 hours ago, Tommy said:

I always thought it was "One pointed concentration" not "one pointedness of mind".
 

 

 

In the Pali sermons, it's "one-pointedness of mind" or simply "one-pointedness".  Never "one-pointed concentration".

 

 

Quote

 

The mind is what it is. It arises with thought for most people. What is one pointedness of mind? One pointed concentration is for the mind to be focused upon one singular point. Maybe i got it wrong but it makes sense to me?
 

Gautama taught that the activity of mind ceases in the final concentration, with the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving. 

Through the final concentration, the cankers come to be destroyed (the cravings for sensual pleasure, becoming, and ignorance). So he said.  Nevertheless:

 

(The individual comprehends thus:  ) ‘This concentration of mind that is signless ("the cessation of feeling and perceiving") is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 121, Vol III pp 151-152; parentheticals paraphrase original; emphasis added)

 

 

The six sensory fields are the usual five senses plus the mind.  Thought persists.  

In the lecture by Koun Franz that I quoted from above, he talks about focusing the mind on one singular point, and he describes it as the positive version of "navel-gazing".  I agree.  
 

Koun Franz speaks of "the base of consciousness" moving away from the head, possibly to the center of gravity.  That "base of consciousness" that moves is one-pointed.  

Apparently what is now translated from the Pali as "mind" could also be translated as heart-mind.  

It's a tricky subject, heart-mind versus thought in concentration.  Gautama taught that thought initial and sustained was a characteristic of the first concentration, and he described his way of living as a series of thoughts/observations, each taking place in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation. That was his way of living, before and after enlightenment (SN 54, Pali Text Society SN V "Chapter on the concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing"). He declared that thought initial and sustained ceased in the second of the initial concentrations, but in my experience thought can and does recur in any state of concentration, and certainly Gautama seems to affirm that the mind continues to function as a sense right through the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving.  I find it hard to believe that he was speaking of feeling and perceiving when he talked about "disturbances" associated with the mind after the final concentration, since volition in feeling and perceiving has ceased at that point--I believe he was referring to thought. 

 

In the mindfulness that made up Gautama's way of living, he speaks of being aware of mind in inhalation and exhalation, of gladdening, composing, and detaching the mind in inhalation and exhalation.  That's the mind as the organ of thought, I believe.

 

 

Quote

 

Jumping from one person to another, no matter they be Zen masters or enlightened ones, you lose the meaning cause each has their own way of expressions. They have their own words to describe the issue at hand. Meaning lost in the translation and the time of the culture for which it was expressed. Not saying you are wrong. But, it sounds like soup with too many ingredients. Can you still call it soup?
 

 

 

Yes, you're right--different cultures and different ages use different terminology, even if the same thing is being described.  Also, there are different degrees of mastery--certainly Gautama studied under two masters of concentration of his day, before he moved on and found a further concentration. 

I would say that most Buddhist teachers have mastered the way of living that Gautama taught as his own. That way of living I believe included the "five limbs" (his phrase) of concentration, the four initial concentrations plus the survey of the body made after the fourth concentration (the "survey-sign" of the concentration), but did not generally include the further concentrations (through the final concentration and the destruction of the cankers). 

 

Like Gautama said, "be a lamp onto oneself."

 

 

Edited October 7 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:28 PM, Tommy said:

Can you suggest a method for moving forward to having this experience so we can understand???

Or,  can there actually be 88 thousand methods of arriving at Nirvana?

 

I have heard stories of people who go to Sesshin and put in mega effort to have a Kensho experience. Some do and some don't have Kensho. Do you suggest we spend the time in such places to put in such efforts? And will it work for me? LOL. A rubbing hand on the back of my bald head. I do not wish for it as I do enjoy the ride. It is all a dance of life. Well, good nite all.

 

You need an introduction to the "nature of mind', also called "sunyata", emptiness, etc. I capable teacher can help you with this.

 

Quote

 

All the teachings are of a single essence. I am referring to rigpa, to the clear light.

No matter how much you learn, how many texts you study, how many
teachings you receive, you will not have gotten the main point if you do not
know this single essence. Tibetans have a saying: "You can receive so many
teachings that your head is flat from being touched with the initiation vase, but
if you don't know the essence, nothing will change."

When one does not directly know the nature of mind, the teachings can be
difficult to understand. They may seem to refer to something impossible,
because the nature of mind is beyond the conceptual mind and cannot be
comprehended by it. Trying to grasp the nature of mind through concepts is like
trying to understand the nature of the sun by studying shadows: something can
be learned, but the essence remains unknown. This is why practice is necessary,
to go beyond the moving mind and to know the nature of mind directly.

- Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

 

 

 From a Zen or Dzogchen perspective all that is then required is learning to bring the mind back home over and over, just as you would in meditation. 

 

Quote

The heart of the practice of the Great Perfection, Dzogchen, which could be summarized thus: every moment of life - waking, dreaming and sleeping - abide in the pure non-dual awareness. This is the certain road to enlightenment and the path that all realized mastered have taken. - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

 

Do you have a teacher? If so, provided you have an established meditation practice, this would be the place to start. If not, feel free to message me. I am a Zen teacher.

[Tommy]

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

You need an introduction to the "nature of mind', also called "sunyata", emptiness, etc. I capable teacher can help you with this.

 

Of course, you are right.

 

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

Do you have a teacher? If so, provided you have an established meditation practice, this would be the place to start. If not, feel free to message me. I am a Zen teacher.

I suspected you were a teacher from your posts. And thank you for your generous offer. But, I doubt I would be an adequate pupil. I had a teacher many years ago. And my practice has been on and off since then. Mainly off. Too lazy, I feel. Although I am very interested in the nature of the mind, my efforts are lacking. And would not want to waste your time. Thank you.

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

I suspected you were a teacher from your posts. And thank you for your generous offer. But, I doubt I would be an adequate pupil. I had a teacher many years ago. And my practice has been on and off since then. Mainly off. Too lazy, I feel. Although I am very interested in the nature of the mind, my efforts are lacking. And would not want to waste your time. Thank you.

 

It is more about motivation and intention than effort, in my experience. Most of the people I meet who are motivated either want to know what the reality of this life truly is, OR are so sick of their suffering/struggle and their mind that they will take 20 or 30 minutes a day to shift it. Still, believe it or not, illumination could happen to you anyway without practice, though the chances are more slim. 

 

The offer is open. _/\_

[forestofclarity]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

Too lazy, I feel.

 

From a general Buddhist point of view, there are many ways to practice. Some of the foundational ways include following the precepts, doing good deeds, cultivating kindness and compassion, reading scriptures, prayers for assistance, chanting mantras, etc. There are also other approaches, such as trusting in Amitabha, the Buddha of infinite light and reciting the name. Pureland is the easy path, and can be practiced instead or, or in addition to, Zen/Chan. 

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It is more about motivation and intention than effort, in my experience. Most of the people I meet who are motivated either want to know what the reality of this life truly is, OR are so sick of their suffering/struggle and their mind that they will take 20 or 30 minutes a day to shift it. Still, believe it or not, illumination could happen to you anyway without practice, though the chances are more slim. 

 

The offer is open. _/\_

 

Yes, well aware. I do practice now a days. Before sleep, 20 minutes just sitting and watching breath. Still thoughts comes and I get identified with them or will chase the idea. Getting older, in the middle of the night, have to get up and go to the bathroom. I wake and sit for about 20 minutes (around four o'clock). This happens each night. Often the sleepy mind takes over and I find my head slumped to the side. If I put in more effort, I can stay awake for the whole twenty minutes. Then I go back to sleep. I do not know if this helps or not. It really doesn't matter to me as I am fine with my present situation. If my desire to find the real answer comes up again then I may search you out. Thanks, you are more than kind.

 

 

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

From a general Buddhist point of view, there are many ways to practice. Some of the foundational ways include following the precepts, doing good deeds, cultivating kindness and compassion, reading scriptures, prayers for assistance, chanting mantras, etc. There are also other approaches, such as trusting in Amitabha, the Buddha of infinite light and reciting the name. Pureland is the easy path, and can be practiced instead or, or in addition to, Zen/Chan. 

 

Sorry, this isn't about living a life of a practicing Buddhist. It is about putting the mega effort that is sometimes needed to break thru the barrier to have an experience such as Kensho. Often this can not be done without the aid of a teacher. With the clarity and understanding of the teacher, the pupil can be guided to the edge of the barrier and finally push thru. I just feel that I do not have that ability to do it.

 

Living the path of a Buddhist isn't hard since there is no hard line to follow. One does what they can to live a good life. Follow the precepts. So, thanks for the advice. But, it isn't the path I am looking for.

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

Before sleep, 20 minutes just sitting and watching breath. Still thoughts comes and I get identified with them or will chase the idea. Getting older, in the middle of the night, have to get up and go to the bathroom. I wake and sit for about 20 minutes (around four o'clock). This happens each night. Often the sleepy mind takes over and I find my head slumped to the side. If I put in more effort, I can stay awake for the whole twenty minutes. Then I go back to sleep. I do not know if this helps or not.

 

That is probably more practice than what I would have suggested to you, honestly. In my opinion once a day for 40 minutes is fine. Obviously, the more you sit, the more emptiness penetrates your day to day activities. 40 minutes usually results in students getting a deeper dive in the second half of the sit, often voyaging into a deeper, quieter emptiness, and sometimes losing touch with "self" and body sensation entirely You are also almost half way to a sleep yoga practice with your nighttime activities, which can also be additive and beneficial, though not a necessity. ANY extra sitting, or walking meditation, etc. can be helpful... or just taking 5 minutes every hour to allow the mind to go still and attempting to take that stillness into your activities.

 

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

It really doesn't matter to me as I am fine with my present situation. If my desire to find the real answer comes up again then I may search you out. Thanks, you are more than kind.

 

_/\_

 

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

Sorry, this isn't about living a life of a practicing Buddhist. It is about putting the mega effort that is sometimes needed to break thru the barrier to have an experience such as Kensho. Often this can not be done without the aid of a teacher. With the clarity and understanding of the teacher, the pupil can be guided to the edge of the barrier and finally push thru. I just feel that I do not have that ability to do it.

 

I didn't have a teacher at the time of Stream Entry, but it DOES help, I agree. I had to scramble and find one!

[Tommy]

Thanks for the reply. It just seems to me that I do not have enough time nor enough effort to reach the barrier much less enter the stream. I have had times where I felt that I wasn't present but I attribute that to falling asleep while sitting. Still the feelings keep me searching for Zen forums and interactions with people who know more than I do. Some are just way too knowledgeable that I do not learn but get confused. And other forums that are not such a good fit. Thanks again for the reply. I wish you well.

[tao.te.kat]

You have 24 hours every day, mediation is not so relevant before kensho, prajna and mindfulness are. And you can practice it everywhere, Hakuin said "practice in movement is a thousand times better than practice in stillness" (or something like that )

 

And also it's not a question of effort which can even be an hindrance. But of understanding you own mind. You dont need a lot of effort to observe yourself. Just enhance day by day the time you're clearly aware of what are you thinking, why and where that thougths come from.

 

But, again, confusion pervades everything because there're 84.000 other opinions which arent wrong. And 84.000.000.000.000.000 which are really very wrong.  

 

 

[forestofclarity]

16 hours ago, Tommy said:

Sorry, this isn't about living a life of a practicing Buddhist.

 

The two are not unrelated. The initial path(s) of the Bodhisattva are the path of accumulating merit and wisdom (Zen is a path for Bodhisattvas). This lays the foundation or groundwork for the path of seeing. Personally, I have found it helpful to return to these foundations again and again.

 

But do as you please. I wish you well on the path. 

[Tommy]

4 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

The two are not unrelated. The initial path(s) of the Bodhisattva are the path of accumulating merit and wisdom (Zen is a path for Bodhisattvas). This lays the foundation or groundwork for the path of seeing. Personally, I have found it helpful to return to these foundations again and again.

 

But do as you please. I wish you well on the path. 

Yes, sure, they are related. It is all about setting the house in order and ready for the master to return. Or about living a life that follows the rules of the eightfold path. However, I liken it to eating ice cream. One can eat ice cream by using one's tongue and licking it. Or one can use a spoon and eat ice cream by the spoonful. Or one can chomp down on the whole scoop in one bite. Thanks for the advice. I also wish you well on your path. Namaste.

[doc benway]

On 10/5/2024 at 12:28 AM, Tommy said:

Can you suggest a method for moving forward to having this experience so we can understand???

 

On 10/8/2024 at 11:54 PM, Tommy said:

 It just seems to me that I do not have enough time nor enough effort to reach the barrier much less enter the stream. 

 

Some simple suggestions that may help if you are interested in getting a sense of the mind’s nature. Rest more and do less - body, speech, and mind. Instead of reaching for the phone or keyboard, take a few minutes to simply be. See what you see, hear what you hear, but just let it be as it is. Less analysis, planning, and reflecting, and more spending time in the present moment with your senses fully open, no matter what you are doing (provided it’s safe, of course).

 

Whenever you notice yourself narrating your experience or engaging with thoughts, plans, or memories, simply notice that tendency and let all effort at participation or suppression dissolve. Feel and connect with the stillness that is always there, behind the movement of the body. Connect with silence, rather than sound and stories. Feel and connect with the openness and spaciousness of the heart and mind, rather than engaging with the contents, emotion and thought. This is the direction to go in to get a taste of the mind’s essence.

[stirling]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:54 PM, Tommy said:

Thanks for the reply. It just seems to me that I do not have enough time nor enough effort to reach the barrier much less enter the stream. I have had times where I felt that I wasn't present but I attribute that to falling asleep while sitting. Still the feelings keep me searching for Zen forums and interactions with people who know more than I do. Some are just way too knowledgeable that I do not learn but get confused. And other forums that are not such a good fit. Thanks again for the reply. I wish you well.

 

Not sure if you wanted yet another reply but: I think you are already pretty much putting in the time and effort - what might be missing is intention. How much you intellectually "know" is generally an impediment. The practice required is simple, and it appears that you are already doing it. Congratulations! 

[Tommy]

7 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

 

Some simple suggestions that may help if you are interested in getting a sense of the mind’s nature. Rest more and do less - body, speech, and mind. Instead of reaching for the phone or keyboard, take a few minutes to simply be. See what you see, hear what you hear, but just let it be as it is. Less analysis, planning, and reflecting, and more spending time in the present moment with your senses fully open, no matter what you are doing (provided it’s safe, of course).

 

Whenever you notice yourself narrating your experience or engaging with thoughts, plans, or memories, simply notice that tendency and let all effort at participation or suppression dissolve. Feel and connect with the stillness that is always there, behind the movement of the body. Connect with silence, rather than sound and stories. Feel and connect with the openness and spaciousness of the heart and mind, rather than engaging with the contents, emotion and thought. This is the direction to go in to get a taste of the mind’s essence.

Thank you for your reply. You seem to have a grasp of the way to proceed. And,, I hope it has been something that I have tried. Sometimes the question comes up with "Am I doing this right?"

 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Not sure if you wanted yet another reply but: I think you are already pretty much putting in the time and effort - what might be missing is intention. How much you intellectually "know" is generally an impediment. The practice required is simple, and it appears that you are already doing it. Congratulations! 

Sure, I welcome any replies. As I have said, my practice is on and off. Mostly off. At the time when I had a teacher, we practiced a couple of hours everyday Monday thru Friday. And on a weekend, when I did not expect anything, there was a shift where everything went silent in my head. Kind of difficult to explain. But, that shift was so sudden that all I wanted was to shift back to normal. And since, I have not had any such experiences. So, I think I have prevented myself from moving forward. Make a little progress and then stop to remain myself. Then, I will start again for a while. Doing as much as I can. Then stop again. So I just live a normal life. Thanks for the reply.

 

So, not enough time and not enough effort. Just don't want to waste anyone's time.

Edited October 10 by Tommy

[ChiDragon]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:49 AM, stirling said:

What a mistake! Blind fools, what sort of juice do they expect to get out of old dried bones?"

Blind fools do not take notes!  

[Sherman Krebbs]

Music cannot be comprehended through an analytical scrutiny of the individual notes and patterns thereof.  It must be listened to. The music is what you hear. and it fucking rocks.