Experience is what is needed

[tao.te.kat]

>And on a weekend, when I did not expect anything, there was a shift where everything went silent in my head. Kind of difficult to explain. But, that shift was so sudden that all I wanted was to shift back to normal. And since, I have not had any such experiences. So, I think I have prevented myself from moving forward. 

 

Sounds nice, my first kensho was like this. A pity you didnt keep going.

 

I was at the underground (here in BCN) and suddenly all went silence inside my head, it was a lot quieter than just having stopped thoughts for some seconds, a lot more... It was like this for one hour or so. Then everything came back to normality. But I knew clearly it ws something. In my case I didnt have any fears. I was amazed.

 

Maybe you werent ready as you wanted your thoughts back... I didnt... but they came back.

 

Third kensho was definitive for me. But not in the sense of the no-mind experience being permanent, not at all, it was in a more subtle way... but it's better that you live it for yourself.

Edited October 11 by tao.te.kat

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, Tommy said:

Sometimes the question comes up with "Am I doing this right?"

 

Yes, this comes up as does any and every thought and feeling one could possibly imagine. “Is this it? Am I doing but right? What’s the point? What a waste of time!” The possibilities are infinite.

The response is always the same - notice what is there in your authentic experience, leave it as it is, and continue. Don’t push it away, don’t engage, just be present with whatever is arising, no judgment.

[Tommy]

On 10/11/2024 at 11:38 AM, doc benway said:

 

Yes, this comes up as does any and every thought and feeling one could possibly imagine. “Is this it? Am I doing but right? What’s the point? What a waste of time!” The possibilities are infinite.

The response is always the same - notice what is there in your authentic experience, leave it as it is, and continue. Don’t push it away, don’t engage, just be present with whatever is arising, no judgment.

Yeah, this is pretty much the reply I got when I mentioned it to my teacher at the time. Not a big deal. Just continue with the practice. And so, I just dropped off the map. But, kept my interest.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:03 PM, Tommy said:

 

Yes, well aware. I do practice now a days. Before sleep, 20 minutes just sitting and watching breath. Still thoughts comes and I get identified with them or will chase the idea. Getting older, in the middle of the night, have to get up and go to the bathroom. I wake and sit for about 20 minutes (around four o'clock). This happens each night. Often the sleepy mind takes over and I find my head slumped to the side. If I put in more effort, I can stay awake for the whole twenty minutes. Then I go back to sleep.
 

Yes, I am up regularly at 3 or 4 am, after going to bed near midnight.  I sit before I go to bed, and when I get up in those early morning hours.  I can use the bathroom after I sit, and then retire (initially and again).

 

Shunryu Suzuki said in one of his lectures that he used the bathroom frequently, but that was helpful for him when he did tangaryo--an excuse for getting up, I suppose is what he meant.

 

If I feel like I can barely stay awake, that's a sign I need to work it up.  I do some kinhin, or some Tai Chi, drink some water--that combination seems to work for me.

 

When I lay down, I don't feel like I can barely stay awake.  But I look to the location of consciousness, and I don't expect it to be in my head, necessarily.  That pretty much works every time, for me to find sleep.  Here's humbleone, from a dozen years ago on The Tao Bums (as it was then):

 

“Hi Mark, so I tried your practice last night. My ideal sleep time should be from 10PM-6AM.

 

I woke up at 4:30 AM. After a quick drink of water, I returned to bed and tried your practice.

 

I hope I did it correctly, I was somewhat surprised that my mind moved around quite a bit. Not fast, but in slow motion the awareness would shift, from left cheek to right side of torso etc.. The end result was a light sleep state, but I was glued to the bed and then woke up exactly at 6AM, feeling refreshed like I had a complete 8 hours of sleep.

 

If I am able to gain control over my sleep that would be very significant step for me indeed. Could you please provide some feedback, as to whether I did it correctly?

 

All the best, humbleone”

 

My reply:

 

Great to hear that you had some success with what I’m describing as “waking up and falling asleep”. Yes, that sounds like the practice; I’m grateful that you tried it at that hour of the morning, as in my experience that’s a very good time to see the mind moving.

 

If you do any seated or even standing meditation in the morning, you may see why I’m referring to the practice as “waking up and falling asleep”. In waking up, I am looking to relinquish my activity, and allow the place of mind to generate activity out of the stretch I find myself in. 

 

In the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it.

 

Now for me my aim is different, not kensho (kensho's a joke, as far as I'm concerned--a change of mind like that induced by brainwashing, see Sargant's "Battle for the Mind"). 

 

"The place of mind" can generate more than the activity of posture and breath, and I spent years trying to reconcile that fact with my everyday life.  I see now that for Gautama, daily life was the four arisings of mindfulness and surrender to the generation of activity by  "the place of mind" as appropriate. 

Like you, I do not expected to attain the destruction of the cankers of sensual pleasure, becoming, and ignorance, which destruction marked Gautama's enlightenment.  Nevertheless, I can sit down and arrive at the activity of the  body  in inhalation and exhalation by virtue of the location of consciousness, even as that location shifts and moves.  That's all I need.

 

A Natural Mindfulness (pdf).

 

 

Edited October 21 by Mark Foote

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Now for me my aim is different, not kensho (kensho's a joke, as far as I'm concerned--a change of mind like that induced by brainwashing, see Sargant's "Battle for the Mind"). 

 

If you have not experienced real Kensho then I would suggest not disparaging Kensho as brainwashing. Not everyone sees it as you do. For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

I see that you have turned your ideas into a little pdf. That to me is much like what happens in other religions. Someone thinks they know more and starts to pass their knowledge on as truth. I am not discouraging your efforts. As in everything, we are encouraged to verify for ourselves the truth passed on by others. Personally, I do not know anything but have experienced other who claim to have known all.

 

For instance, one person claimed that he could become more like Buddha thru debates about Buddhism. The more debates he wins then the closer he is to Buddha. Another person on a defunct forum (Zen forum international), came to the forum to establish that he knew everything about enlightenment. And to follow his instructions. Of course there was another person who have had more experience with formal instructions, he would argue with the other person which turned the forum into a toxic place.

 

All I want is to have a place for discussions. Not a place for negativity. So, as for your PDF, thank you. Will look into it. If it turn out right then will be most grateful. If not then I will not say anything else. After all, this is a journey. Some go left and other goes right. I like to take a step back and look forward. Please do not discourage others from Kensho. Thanks.

Edited October 21 by Tommy

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

Yeah, this is pretty much the reply I got when I mentioned it to my teacher at the time. Not a big deal. Just continue with the practice. And so, I just dropped off the map. But, kept my interest.

 

With due respect to your teacher, I think it can be a mistake to tell people things like "not a big deal." 

It may, in fact, be a very big deal to a given person under the right circumstances.

Something may be, from an absolute perspective, not a big deal at all, for nothing really is.

But from the practitioner's perspective that may not be the case, we are human practitioners after all, not the absolute "itself."

( I know, I know, we are not something other than the absolute ever, but that is not always our experience).

The Two Truths doctrine tells us that things can legitimately be a big deal, which is why we practice.

 

I once had an experience that for me was a very big deal.

My teacher at the time sort of brushed it off with what I felt was a sense of arrogance and dismissiveness that didn't sit right with me.

It wasn't the sole reason but definitely contributed to my looking for a different teacher.

My current teacher listened to me and responded in a way that was much more supportive and helpful.

He didn't really give me any more information but he did give me a powerful, non-verbal teaching, a transmission if you will, that had a major impact for me. 

Teaching and guiding people is a tricky thing.

[tao.te.kat]

>Teaching and guiding people is a tricky thing.

 

That's a great truth. You can be realized and not a good teacher.

 

And to some extent and maturity you dont need to be completely realized to be a good teacher.

 

Teaching is an art, and realizing is other matter. You can master both or none or one of them.

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

It is. Once it is part of your experience NOTHING is the same. 

[Mark Foote]

19 hours ago, Tommy said:

If you have not experienced real Kensho then I would suggest not disparaging Kensho as brainwashing. Not everyone sees it as you do. For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

Please do not discourage others from Kensho. Thanks.
 

 

You might want to take a glance at "Battle for the Mind".  Sargant made a study of religious conversion, North Korean brainwashing, trance possession.

 

Surprising bottom line from North Korea:  if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure.  It's not like they have a rational change of belief--it's like a total reversal of belief overnight, rock solid and no doubt about it.  Typical stressors are starvation, lack of sleep, disease. In the case of Christian conversion, add threat of damnation.

I'm not saying there isn't a practice of Christian belief that is mystical and allows the practitioner to transcend themselves in their actions.  Or that there isn't a similar practice in Buddhism that does the same.  I'm only saying that you want to be suspicious when people are deprived of sleep, fed very little, and pressured to have some kind of realization.

That's my view. 

 

Is there a transformative experience in Zen? Ok, I believe there is.  Does it have to do with understanding, or with insight?  No, it's a physical experience of the activity of the body in the absence of habit and volition.  There's another one that has to do with the experience of the activity of mind in the absence of habit and volition, I don't expect to attain that, but I think the first experience on a regular basis is all I need for now.  

And for me it has to do with action, not insight.

 

 

[Tommy]

10 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

You might want to take a glance at "Battle for the Mind".  Sargant made a study of religious conversion, North Korean brainwashing, trance possession.

 

Surprising bottom line from North Korea:  if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure.  It's not like they have a rational change of belief--it's like a total reversal of belief overnight, rock solid and no doubt about it.  Typical stressors are starvation, lack of sleep, disease. In the case of Christian conversion, add threat of damnation.

Kensho is not religious conversion nor North Korean brainwashing nor trance possession. As mentioned before, Kensho is the opening of the mind's awareness. There is no different belief system that will relieve the stress. The stress, in the case of Kensho, is self induced. And not forced upon one. Being self induced it can be relieved by the self at any time.

 

When someone deprives you of food, that is forced upon you and can not be stopped by you. When you choose to fast, that is your choice and can be stopped at any time you want. The two outwardly appear to be the same. A person in starvation or being hungry. But, inwardly, vastly different. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.

 

It is quite right to express your opinion. I am sorry that I made it out as being too negative. I just do not want to see someone discouraged from seeking Kensho because it was called brainwashing. Personally, I do wish for you to experience Kensho and know for yourself its true meaning. Thanks for reading.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Kensho is not religious conversion nor North Korean brainwashing nor trance possession. As mentioned before, Kensho is the opening of the mind's awareness. There is no different belief system that will relieve the stress. The stress, in the case of Kensho, is self induced. And not forced upon one. Being self induced it can be relieved by the self at any time.

 

When someone deprives you of food, that is forced upon you and can not be stopped by you. When you choose to fast, that is your choice and can be stopped at any time you want. The two outwardly appear to be the same. A person in starvation or being hungry. But, inwardly, vastly different. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.

 

It is quite right to express your opinion. I am sorry that I made it out as being too negative. I just do not want to see someone discouraged from seeking Kensho because it was called brainwashing. Personally, I do wish for you to experience Kensho and know for yourself its true meaning. Thanks for reading.

 

 

 

Thank you for your courtesy, I'm aware that my comments about kensho were not the most positive, and I appreciate you overcoming the antipathy you must have felt. 

 

The only kensho experiences I've really heard about were those recounted in Three Pillars of Zen, Phillip Kapleau's work.  I learned to sit from the pictures in the back of the book--never have been able to keep that posture, though.  I had done enough acid trips when I read that book (not that many, but enough) to feel that the kensho experiences recounted in Kapleau's book were very much like the insight experiences coming off acid.  Those insights never lasted, and certainly didn't change my life the way I was hoping they might.

I believe my current experience has the potential to change my life.  That's sitting until the place where I am can sit, in the mornings when I get up and in the evenings before I go to bed.  Some things to guide me during the day, and return me to that experience.

 

It's simple, and it's not.  As Gautama said about each of the concentrations, "whatever a person imagines it to be, it is otherwise."

 

Sounds like you experienced kensho, and it changed your life?

 

 

[tao.te.kat]

> Sounds like you experienced kensho, and it changed your life?

 

There're thousands of experiences of Kensho even now, these days,  it's strange you only know of it for the book of P. Kappleau

 

In fact Bodhidharma said:

 

When a person who has not had kensho reads the Buddhist scriptures, questions his teachers and fellow monks about Buddhism, or practices religious disciplines, he is merely creating the causes of his own illusion – a sure sign that he is still confined within samsara. He tries constantly to keep himself detached of thought and deed, and all the while his thoughts and deeds are attached. He endeavors to be doing nothing all day long, and all the while he is busily doing.

 

Or Hakuin said:

 

Anyone who would call himself a member of the Zen family must first achieve kensho-realization of the Buddha's way. If a person who has not achieved kensho says he is a follower of Zen, he is an outrageous fraud. A swindler pure and simple.

 

Just two famous quotes from great masters. There're zillions of them.

 

Also check the path of seeing and the realization of the nature of mind in tibetn buddhism, is quite equivalent.

 

In fact apart from Soto (and not all Soto masters) I dont know of any other branch of Mahayana buddhism without the sudden experience of recognizing your own nature (ah, ok, Pure Land family may be too).

 

Edited October 22 by tao.te.kat

[Tommy]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The only kensho experiences I've really heard about were those recounted in Three Pillars of Zen, Phillip Kapleau's work.  I learned to sit from the pictures in the back of the book--never have been able to keep that posture, though.  I had done enough acid trips when I read that book (not that many, but enough) to feel that the kensho experiences recounted in Kapleau's book were very much like the insight experiences coming off acid.  Those insights never lasted, and certainly didn't change my life the way I was hoping they might.

 

Sounds like you experienced kensho, and it changed your life?

If one is reading about Kensho then it isn't Kensho. And I have had one acid experience. I know it isn't Kensho because the self is still there. All acid seemed to do is to allow this self to understand that there are different states of awareness. If one is in a good place then the world seems fantastic. If one is in a dark place then the horrors comes out. For me, it isn't what I seek. And nothing from drugs or alcohol will last forever. It is a dead end.

 

As for me, I would never claim to have experienced Kensho or anything like it regardless of what I have experienced. Too much like claiming to know the future when the future can change before your vision of it would come to pass. All things will change. Not even one's memories will stay the same as one ages. As the saying goes, if you want to know why we are here then look at your past. If you want to know the future then look at the present. Attention, actions and intent are just some of the deciding factors of one's life.

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Surprising bottom line from North Korea:  if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure.

 

A "belief system" is a set of ideas constructed in the thinking mind. Initial insight into emptiness isn't a "belief system" is the ability to see something about reality that you couldn't before. It is verifiable by sensory input moment to moment that is persistent and self-verifiable. It can't be changed, because it isn't a thought or idea.

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm only saying that you want to be suspicious when people are deprived of sleep, fed very little, and pressured to have some kind of realization.

 

None of that is necessary for insight. People with no belief system whatsoever have insight all of the time. It is a recognized thing in Buddhism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna

 

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Is there a transformative experience in Zen? Ok, I believe there is.  Does it have to do with understanding, or with insight?  No, it's a physical experience of the activity of the body in the absence of habit and volition. 

 

I appreciate that this is your belief, but it isn't "Buddhism"

 

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

There's another one that has to do with the experience of the activity of mind in the absence of habit and volition, I don't expect to attain that, but I think the first experience on a regular basis is all I need for now.  

And for me it has to do with action, not insight.

 

To preach this as a personal philosophy is fine. To present it as the reality of how Buddhism is would be mistaken. 

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

… if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure …

 

Interesting. Reminded me of ‘Stockholm syndrome’.

 

 

Edited October 22 by Cobie

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

Quote

 Sounds like you experienced kensho, and it changed your life?

 

There're thousands of experiences of Kensho even now, these days,  it's strange you only know of it for the book of P. Kappleau

 

In fact Bodhidharma said:

 

When a person who has not had kensho reads the Buddhist scriptures, questions his teachers and fellow monks about Buddhism, or practices religious disciplines, he is merely creating the causes of his own illusion – a sure sign that he is still confined within samsara. He tries constantly to keep himself detached of thought and deed, and all the while his thoughts and deeds are attached. He endeavors to be doing nothing all day long, and all the while he is busily doing.
 

 

So far as I know, there's very little that can actually be attributed to the historical Bodhidharma.  Most of what's attributed to him is by later authors.

 

Not that I'm disputing that there is an experience in Zen that constitutes a turning point.  Just that the experiences recounted as "kensho" by the Japanese business men in "Three Pillars of Zen" weren't it!

And indeed, the experience has to do with "doing nothing", the opposite of "doing something", as  Shunryu Suzuki pointed out:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970)

 

What he calls "just sitting", I describe as activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation solely by virtue of the location of consciousness.  And it can be a bitch, the first time!

Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully. 

 

(“Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46; copyright 2004 Sotoshu Shumucho)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

If one is reading about Kensho then it isn't Kensho. And I have had one acid experience. I know it isn't Kensho because the self is still there. All acid seemed to do is to allow this self to understand that there are different states of awareness. If one is in a good place then the world seems fantastic. If one is in a dark place then the horrors comes out. For me, it isn't what I seek. And nothing from drugs or alcohol will last forever. It is a dead end.

 

As for me, I would never claim to have experienced Kensho or anything like it regardless of what I have experienced. Too much like claiming to know the future when the future can change before your vision of it would come to pass. All things will change. Not even one's memories will stay the same as one ages. As the saying goes, if you want to know why we are here then look at your past. If you want to know the future then look at the present. Attention, actions and intent are just some of the deciding factors of one's life.

 

 

 

I agree, drugs don't actually deliver, if it's the well-being of mind and body that matters.

 

Sounds like you don't want to talk about your experience, because you don't want to jinx it?  Ok.

 

One other thing occurred to me, and that's the stories of all the disciples of Philip Kapleau at Rochester Zendo.  Here's something from the introduction to that book, "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice:  Philip Kapleau and The Three Pillars of Zen":

 

 

Thirty-five years after Kapleau’s seminal volume was published, we have Zen Teaching, Zen Practice, a collection of eleven essay’s written mostly by Kapleau’s senior students examining Kapleau’s work and influence not only as an author but as a Zen teacher.

 

Zen Teaching, Zen Practice is edited by Kenneth Kraft, who also wrote the interesting Introduction. Kraft points out that Kapleau’s book is “in large measure a book about kensho” (p.14) which in itself is problematic as for many, including some of the authors of the essays, this led to “inflated expectations… [and] [t]he discrepancy between anticipatory visions of enlightenment and actual experiences of insight”. (p.15) This disjuncture between what Kapleau wrote and the actual experiences of Zen students has led to some criticisms of The Three Pillars of Zen as a book that gives an unrealistic picture of what to expect from zazen. The reality is, of course, that zazen and Zen practice do not necessarily lead to kensho or satori for all but Kapleau’s book raised the expectation that arduous practice would inevitably lead to enlightenment. For many, if not most Zen students, just how difficult the practice is and how committed one must be came as a shock and, inevitably for some, a disappointment.

 

(https://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/ZenteachingZenpractice.htm)

 

 

That book, the book recounting his students' disappointments with kensho, apparently only had one printing.  

 

 

Edited October 23 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

A "belief system" is a set of ideas constructed in the thinking mind. Initial insight into emptiness isn't a "belief system" is the ability to see something about reality that you couldn't before. It is verifiable by sensory input moment to moment that is persistent and self-verifiable. It can't be changed, because it isn't a thought or idea.
 

 

 

Does your insight make any difference to your action, starting with inhalation and exhalation when you sit?

 

 

Quote

 

 

None of that is necessary for insight. People with no belief system whatsoever have insight all of the time. It is a recognized thing in Buddhism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna
 

 

 

Gautama spoke of the person who is "freed by intuitive wisdom" as a person whose cankers have been destroyed.  He spoke of the person who has "won to view", as a person who has seen by means of wisdom but only some of whose cankers have been destroyed:

 

And which, monks, is the person that has won to view?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; yet having seen by means of wisdom some of his cankers are utterly destroyed, and those things that are proclaimed by the Tathagatha are fully seen by him through intuitive wisdom and fully practiced.... This, monks, is called the person who has won to view.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....             

 

(MN 70 Kitagirisutta, PTS 478-480 pp 151-154)          

 

 

Grades of enlightenment, how tedious!  Not something mentioned in the Zen world.

 

 

Quote

 

I appreciate that this is your belief, but it isn't "Buddhism"

 

To preach this as a personal philosophy is fine. To present it as the reality of how Buddhism is would be mistaken. 
 

 

 

I'm not a Buddhist, I'm a person who has benefited greatly from the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan in the early Buddhist texts.  Ok, some Zen texts too, and some Zen teachers.  I'm basically teaching myself, and as I read the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan, that's the way it's supposed to be done (maybe with occasional help from friends). 

 

If you want to teach Buddhism, Stirling--good luck.  If I weren't teaching myself, I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

In "Mystic Devices in the Room" it says:  "One time Huike climbed up Few Houses Peak with Bodhidharma.  Bodhidharma asked, 'Where are we going?' Huike said, 'Please go right ahead--that's it.' Bodhidharma said, 'If you go right ahead, you cannot move a step.'

 

(Denkoroku 30 Huike, Keizan, tr. Thomas Cleary, Shambala p 111)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23 by Mark Foote

[tao.te.kat]

 

 

>Grades of enlightenment, how tedious!  Not something mentioned in the Zen world.

 

Check the five ranks of Tozan (founder of Soto school), the ten ox herding pictures or Linji four positions, or Hakuin koan curriculum for more details 

 

Outside Zen check for the four Theravada levels of attainment, the ten Bhumis of the Bodhisatva (that applies also for Zen), the four mahamudra yogas or the five tibetan paths to name some... 

 

You will find the sudden realization of your nature in most of all them if not all.

 

You should study a bit more of buddhism if you want to state such kinds of statement. Yous texts are quite influenced by the modern Soto school, which has some strange particularities respect buddhism in general (and even respect the rest of the Zen/Chan/Thien/Seon). Quite unique. One of the few sub-sub-school without stages and realization of own nature. In fact apart from Pure Land, and maybe Dzogchen, that sometimes is also viewed as no-stages, but there're stages in other sources of Dzogchen. In fact some Soto schools also know of kensho and contemplate it in its teachings. At Dharmawheel there're some.

 

So there're a lot of stages in Bhuddhism and in Zen (Zen is not only a particular view of some Soto masters like Shunryu or Deshimaru, that is just a small part of Zen).

 

Best wishes

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23 by tao.te.kat

[tao.te.kat]

Today I saw a new book on the topic has been published in case someone is interested:

 

The Five Ranks of Zen (shambhala.com)

 

 

Edited October 23 by tao.te.kat

[Tommy]

13 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Sounds like you don't want to talk about your experience, because you don't want to jinx it?  Ok.

Sorry to say, no possible jinx. I am not looking for life changing experiences. The reasoning is the old saying, 

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water

After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water

 

So life doesn't change. Only the outlook on life changes.

 

I agree that the Three Pillars Of Zen did seems to promise Kensho if there was enough effort put forth. And, many Zen places do have retreats and Sesshin. I have always thought about going to such retreats to solve this mystery about the truth of life. Sit for hours and become a better person with wisdom and compassion. But, I know that isn't me ( I have no wisdom nor compassion). And I know there is no guarantee.

 

I guess if the author doesn't dangle the carrot then there would be a lesser number of people inclined to seek Kensho which is what I believe was the purpose of his book. To allow people to learn about Zen and then go on its path.

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

 

>Grades of enlightenment, how tedious!  Not something mentioned in the Zen world.

 

Check the five ranks of Tozan (founder of Soto school), the ten ox herding pictures or Linji four positions, or Hakuin koan curriculum for more details 

 

Outside Zen check for the four Theravada levels of attainment, the ten Bhumis of the Bodhisatva (that applies also for Zen), the four mahamudra yogas or the five tibetan paths to name some... 

 

You will find the sudden realization of your nature in most of all them if not all.

 

You should study a bit more of buddhism if you want to state such kinds of statement. Yous texts are quite influenced by the modern Soto school, which has some strange particularities respect buddhism in general (and even respect the rest of the Zen/Chan/Thien/Seon). Quite unique. One of the few sub-sub-school without stages and realization of own nature. In fact apart from Pure Land, and maybe Dzogchen, that sometimes is also viewed as no-stages, but there're stages in other sources of Dzogchen. In fact some Soto schools also know of kensho and contemplate it in its teachings. At Dharmawheel there're some.

 

So there're a lot of stages in Buddhism and in Zen (Zen is not only a particular view of some Soto masters like Shunryu or Deshimaru, that is just a small part of Zen).

 

Best wishes

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much, tao.te.kat, for the correction!  You have cited many more instances than I was aware of.

 

Nevertheless, most Americans I think have come to think of enlightenment as a one-size-fits-all, turn-the-corner-to-complete-self-realization kind of experience.  The students of Philip Kapleau were certainly thinking of kensho in that way.

 

And I agree that Gautama spoke of never-returners, once-returners, stream-winners, stream enterers, and he certainly outlined seven different types of persons in the world, with various degrees of the destruction of the cankers.  Well, actually, two whose cankers were destroyed and had nothing to be done through further diligence, and five who had partially destroyed the cankers or who had not destroyed the cankers for whom there was something to be done through further diligence. Gradations and different aptitudes.

 

The interesting thing about that analysis is that a person could either be freed both ways, or through intuitive wisdom, and have their cankers destroyed.  "Freed both ways" is not really defined, but I'm guessing both through the arupa jhanas (the "incorporeal" peaceful Deliverances) and through intuitive wisdom.  The arupa jhanas alone were not sufficient, because the "mental realizer" type of person practiced them but still had "something to be done through diligence". Neither was having "seen by means of wisdom", as most if not all of the seven types had done that.

 

I am mostly interested in the fact that in the mindfulness of Mahasatipatthana (DN) and of the chapter on inbreathing and outbreathing (SN 5.54), the emphasis is on the four rupa jhanas and the sign ("the five limbs of concentration") in a way of living. I'm interested in that, as the reconciliation of my own experience of what Dogen called "the inconceivable" with my day-to-day life.

 

 

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

So far as I know, there's very little that can actually be attributed to the historical Bodhidharma.  Most of what's attributed to him is by later authors.

 

Either way, the Bodhidharma stuff is some very PITH instruction. Ever read Bodhidharma's version of the precepts? Just... wow.

 

https://jakkoan.net/Jukai/Precepts.htm

 

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

And indeed, the experience has to do with "doing nothing", the opposite of "doing something"...

 

Just to refine that, it has to do with no "doer'. A backwards step!

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Does your insight make any difference to your action, starting with inhalation and exhalation when you sit?

 

See above. Insight wipes out the illusion of a doer. No-one inhales or exhales (OR the entire field of experience inhales and exhales). Like all other phenomena (a bird flying by, or a leaf falling from a tree, for example) breathing appears and disappears in the field of experience. All appearances are enlightened. 

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama spoke of the person who is "freed by intuitive wisdom" as a person whose cankers have been destroyed.  He spoke of the person who has "won to view", as a person who has seen by means of wisdom but only some of whose cankers have been destroyed:

 

And which, monks, is the person that has won to view?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; yet having seen by means of wisdom some of his cankers are utterly destroyed, and those things that are proclaimed by the Tathagatha are fully seen by him through intuitive wisdom and fully practiced.... This, monks, is called the person who has won to view.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....             

 

(MN 70 Kitagirisutta, PTS 478-480 pp 151-154) 

 

..."Transcended material shapes", means sees all appearances as "empty", which I was pointing to in my previous comment above.

 

An easier to parse version of this (in my opinion) is:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#Nirvana_with_and_without_remainder_of_fuel

 

or:

 

Quote

44. The Nibbāna-element

 

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

 

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

 

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

 

“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”

These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

 

- Buddha,  Itivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings, The Section of the Twos, 44. The Nibbāna-element

 

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Grades of enlightenment, how tedious!  Not something mentioned in the Zen world.

 

Ah... but it is!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ranks

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

If you want to teach Buddhism, Stirling--good luck.  If I weren't teaching myself, I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, he was one of long line of those who just "got" it and pointed to what they understood. That's me too. If framing it in Buddhism works for someone, that's great... I can frame it that way... and often do.

 

Where to begin? Let go of all ideas about how or what you are doing and just rest the mind in its own nature... stillness. You are there!

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

  19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

So far as I know, there's very little that can actually be attributed to the historical Bodhidharma.  Most of what's attributed to him is by later authors.

 

Either way, the Bodhidharma stuff is some very PITH instruction. Ever read Bodhidharma's version of the precepts? Just... wow.

 

https://jakkoan.net/Jukai/Precepts.htm
 

 

 

First off, Stirling, thanks for your responses.

 

Kobun lectured on those precepts, the lectures are in "Embracing Mind:  the Zen Talks of Kobun Chino Otogawa", edited by Judy Cosgrove and Shinbo Joseph Hall.  They're not identified as Bodhidharma's, though.

 

Yes, I agree, that treatment is more straightforward, at least for me.
 

 

Quote

 

  15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

And indeed, the experience has to do with "doing nothing", the opposite of "doing something"...

 

Just to refine that, it has to do with no "doer'. A backwards step!
 

 

 

That much is right, but what about the witness of activity in the absence of a "doer"?
 

 

 

 

Quote

 

  18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Does your insight make any difference to your action, starting with inhalation and exhalation when you sit?

 

See above. Insight wipes out the illusion of a doer. No-one inhales or exhales (OR the entire field of experience inhales and exhales). Like all other phenomena (a bird flying by, or a leaf falling from a tree, for example) breathing appears and disappears in the field of experience. All appearances are enlightened. 
 

 

 

My experience is different.  In my experience, the sense of place associated with consciousness acts. It's hard to believe it can be so until it happens.

 

 

Quote

 

  14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama spoke of the person who is "freed by intuitive wisdom" as a person whose cankers have been destroyed.  He spoke of the person who has "won to view", as a person who has seen by means of wisdom but only some of whose cankers have been destroyed:

 

And which, monks, is the person that has won to view?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are having transcended material shapes; yet having seen by means of wisdom some of his cankers are utterly destroyed, and those things that are proclaimed by the Tathagatha are fully seen by him through intuitive wisdom and fully practiced.... This, monks, is called the person who has won to view.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence....             

 

(MN 70 Kitagirisutta, PTS 478-480 pp 151-154) 

 

..."Transcended material shapes", means sees all appearances as "empty", which I was pointing to in my previous comment above.
 

 

 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

MN I 7; 38; © Pali Text Society Vol I p 48)
 

Gautama said that “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of the mind of compassion was the first of the further concentrations, a concentration he called “the infinity of ether”

(SN 46.54; Pali Text Society Vol V p 100-102).

 

(The Inconceivable Nature of the Wind)

 

Not exactly seeing all appearances as "empty", I think.

 

 

Quote

 

An easier to parse version of this (in my opinion) is:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#Nirvana_with_and_without_remainder_of_fuel

 

or:

 

  Quote

44. The Nibbāna-element

 

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

 

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

 

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

 

“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”

These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

 

- Buddha,  Itivuttaka: The Buddha’s Sayings, The Section of the Twos, 44. The Nibbāna-element
 

 

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
 

 

 

Well, you and I disagree over whether the sayings in the fifth Nikaya can be trusted. 

I have pointed to the passage in MN III 121 before:

 

…And again, Ananda, [an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to the solitude of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. [One] regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends:  'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] s true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realisation of emptiness.

 

("Lesser Discourse on Emptiness", Culasunnatasutta, Pali Text Society MN III 121 vol III p 151-2)

 

In the sutta above, Gautama points to six senses, not five as in the passage from Itivuttaka. He points to the continued disturbance of the six senses, which the sermon in Itivuttaka would seem to deny for its "no residue left" category of arahant.

 

Arahants with residue left is a funny concept, to me.  

 

In Gautama's description of the "seven persons", there are two for whom diligence has been done, and there is no more to be done.  There is no arahant above arahants.  
 

 

Quote

 

  14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Grades of enlightenment, how tedious!  Not something mentioned in the Zen world.

 

Ah... but it is! 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ranks

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls
 

 

 

Yes, I stand corrected, tao.te.kat provided an extensive list which I'm sure is accurate.

 

The thing I find so useful in Gautama's teaching are the metaphors he provided for each of the first four rupa jhanas ("corporeal" jhanas).  Not sure there's an equivalent in Zen, apart from Hakuin's "golden butter" practice.

 

What makes a great teaching, to me, is consistency and applicability.  Zen is strong on negation, but weak on the positive and substantive, when it comes to sitting practice.  Gautama has supplied the positive and substantive, for me.

 

 

Quote

 

  14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

If you want to teach Buddhism, Stirling--good luck.  If I weren't teaching myself, I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, he was one of long line of those who just "got" it and pointed to what they understood. That's me too. If framing it in Buddhism works for someone, that's great... I can frame it that way... and often do.
 

 

 

'I appreciate that this is your belief, but it isn't "Buddhism"', said the one who, following in a long line, isn't a Buddhist? 

 

 

Quote

 

Where to begin? Let go of all ideas about how or what you are doing and just rest the mind in its own nature... stillness. You are there!
 

 

 

Where to begin?  Just here.

 

I know you'll agree it's not doing something so that "you are there"--at least I'm pretty sure you will... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water

After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water

 

 

 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.
 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)

 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.
 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
 

 

Now it is true that Gautama described his way of living, "the (mind-)development that is mindfulness of inbreathing and outbreathing" (Pali Text Society Anapanasati Sutta MN 118), as his way of living before his enlightenment ("when I was as yet the Bodhisattva") and after his enlightenment ("the best of ways, the Tathagatha's way of living").  He said it was especially his way of living in the rainy season (SN V chapter on inbreathing and outbreathing).

 

 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

I agree that the Three Pillars Of Zen did seems to promise Kensho if there was enough effort put forth. And, many Zen places do have retreats and Sesshin. I have always thought about going to such retreats to solve this mystery about the truth of life. Sit for hours and become a better person with wisdom and compassion. But, I know that isn't me ( I have no wisdom nor compassion). And I know there is no guarantee.

 

I guess if the author doesn't dangle the carrot then there would be a lesser number of people inclined to seek Kensho which is what I believe was the purpose of his book. To allow people to learn about Zen and then go on its path.
 

My understanding is that the Rinzai and Sambo schools of Zen emphasize kensho.  Sensei Meido Moore teaches in the Rinzai tradition, at Korinji in Wisconsin.  Also my understanding is that Rinzai emphasizes dokusan, private instruction with the teacher, but at least in Japan dokusan is uncommon in Soto zendos.

I think there is an advantage to being around teachers like Meido, in that there's a physical component to Zen that can maybe be picked up intuitively.  That said, not all Zen teachers embody that kind of understanding, in my experience.

 

I've done some one and three days sesshins at Soto centers, and one five day sesshin.  They are interesting, but I remember that when I was thinking of trying to become a resident at one Zen center, the advice I got was that it was maybe better for me just to practice at home.  And I think that was true!