Experience is what is needed

[tao.te.kat]

>And on a weekend, when I did not expect anything, there was a shift where everything went silent in my head. Kind of difficult to explain. But, that shift was so sudden that all I wanted was to shift back to normal. And since, I have not had any such experiences. So, I think I have prevented myself from moving forward. 

 

Sounds nice, my first kensho was like this. A pity you didnt keep going.

 

I was at the underground (here in BCN) and suddenly all went silence inside my head, it was a lot quieter than just having stopped thoughts for some seconds, a lot more... It was like this for one hour or so. Then everything came back to normality. But I knew clearly it ws something. In my case I didnt have any fears. I was amazed.

 

Maybe you werent ready as you wanted your thoughts back... I didnt... but they came back.

 

Third kensho was definitive for me. But not in the sense of the no-mind experience being permanent, not at all, it was in a more subtle way... but it's better that you live it for yourself.

Edited October 11 by tao.te.kat

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, Tommy said:

Sometimes the question comes up with "Am I doing this right?"

 

Yes, this comes up as does any and every thought and feeling one could possibly imagine. “Is this it? Am I doing but right? What’s the point? What a waste of time!” The possibilities are infinite.

The response is always the same - notice what is there in your authentic experience, leave it as it is, and continue. Don’t push it away, don’t engage, just be present with whatever is arising, no judgment.

[Tommy]

On 10/11/2024 at 11:38 AM, doc benway said:

 

Yes, this comes up as does any and every thought and feeling one could possibly imagine. “Is this it? Am I doing but right? What’s the point? What a waste of time!” The possibilities are infinite.

The response is always the same - notice what is there in your authentic experience, leave it as it is, and continue. Don’t push it away, don’t engage, just be present with whatever is arising, no judgment.

Yeah, this is pretty much the reply I got when I mentioned it to my teacher at the time. Not a big deal. Just continue with the practice. And so, I just dropped off the map. But, kept my interest.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:03 PM, Tommy said:

 

Yes, well aware. I do practice now a days. Before sleep, 20 minutes just sitting and watching breath. Still thoughts comes and I get identified with them or will chase the idea. Getting older, in the middle of the night, have to get up and go to the bathroom. I wake and sit for about 20 minutes (around four o'clock). This happens each night. Often the sleepy mind takes over and I find my head slumped to the side. If I put in more effort, I can stay awake for the whole twenty minutes. Then I go back to sleep.
 

Yes, I am up regularly at 3 or 4 am, after going to bed near midnight.  I sit before I go to bed, and when I get up in those early morning hours.  I can use the bathroom after I sit, and then retire (initially and again).

 

Shunryu Suzuki said in one of his lectures that he used the bathroom frequently, but that was helpful for him when he did tangaryo--an excuse for getting up, I suppose is what he meant.

 

If I feel like I can barely stay awake, that's a sign I need to work it up.  I do some kinhin, or some Tai Chi, drink some water--that combination seems to work for me.

 

When I lay down, I don't feel like I can barely stay awake.  But I look to the location of consciousness, and I don't expect it to be in my head, necessarily.  That pretty much works every time, for me to find sleep.  Here's humbleone, from a dozen years ago on The Tao Bums (as it was then):

 

“Hi Mark, so I tried your practice last night. My ideal sleep time should be from 10PM-6AM.

 

I woke up at 4:30 AM. After a quick drink of water, I returned to bed and tried your practice.

 

I hope I did it correctly, I was somewhat surprised that my mind moved around quite a bit. Not fast, but in slow motion the awareness would shift, from left cheek to right side of torso etc.. The end result was a light sleep state, but I was glued to the bed and then woke up exactly at 6AM, feeling refreshed like I had a complete 8 hours of sleep.

 

If I am able to gain control over my sleep that would be very significant step for me indeed. Could you please provide some feedback, as to whether I did it correctly?

 

All the best, humbleone”

 

My reply:

 

Great to hear that you had some success with what I’m describing as “waking up and falling asleep”. Yes, that sounds like the practice; I’m grateful that you tried it at that hour of the morning, as in my experience that’s a very good time to see the mind moving.

 

If you do any seated or even standing meditation in the morning, you may see why I’m referring to the practice as “waking up and falling asleep”. In waking up, I am looking to relinquish my activity, and allow the place of mind to generate activity out of the stretch I find myself in. 

 

In the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it.

 

Now for me my aim is different, not kensho (kensho's a joke, as far as I'm concerned--a change of mind like that induced by brainwashing, see Sargant's "Battle for the Mind"). 

 

"The place of mind" can generate more than the activity of posture and breath, and I spent years trying to reconcile that fact with my everyday life.  I see now that for Gautama, daily life was the four arisings of mindfulness and surrender to the generation of activity by  "the place of mind" as appropriate. 

Like you, I do not expected to attain the destruction of the cankers of sensual pleasure, becoming, and ignorance, which destruction marked Gautama's enlightenment.  Nevertheless, I can sit down and arrive at the activity of the  body  in inhalation and exhalation by virtue of the location of consciousness, even as that location shifts and moves.  That's all I need.

 

A Natural Mindfulness (pdf).

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:04 AM by Mark Foote

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Now for me my aim is different, not kensho (kensho's a joke, as far as I'm concerned--a change of mind like that induced by brainwashing, see Sargant's "Battle for the Mind"). 

 

If you have not experienced real Kensho then I would suggest not disparaging Kensho as brainwashing. Not everyone sees it as you do. For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

I see that you have turned your ideas into a little pdf. That to me is much like what happens in other religions. Someone thinks they know more and starts to pass their knowledge on as truth. I am not discouraging your efforts. As in everything, we are encouraged to verify for ourselves the truth passed on by others. Personally, I do not know anything but have experienced other who claim to have known all.

 

For instance, one person claimed that he could become more like Buddha thru debates about Buddhism. The more debates he wins then the closer he is to Buddha. Another person on a defunct forum (Zen forum international), came to the forum to establish that he knew everything about enlightenment. And to follow his instructions. Of course there was another person who have had more experience with formal instructions, he would argue with the other person which turned the forum into a toxic place.

 

All I want is to have a place for discussions. Not a place for negativity. So, as for your PDF, thank you. Will look into it. If it turn out right then will be most grateful. If not then I will not say anything else. After all, this is a journey. Some go left and other goes right. I like to take a step back and look forward. Please do not discourage others from Kensho. Thanks.

Edited 15 hours ago by Tommy

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

Yeah, this is pretty much the reply I got when I mentioned it to my teacher at the time. Not a big deal. Just continue with the practice. And so, I just dropped off the map. But, kept my interest.

 

With due respect to your teacher, I think it can be a mistake to tell people things like "not a big deal." 

It may, in fact, be a very big deal to a given person under the right circumstances.

Something may be, from an absolute perspective, not a big deal at all, for nothing really is.

But from the practitioner's perspective that may not be the case, we are human practitioners after all, not the absolute "itself."

( I know, I know, we are not something other than the absolute ever, but that is not always our experience).

The Two Truths doctrine tells us that things can legitimately be a big deal, which is why we practice.

 

I once had an experience that for me was a very big deal.

My teacher at the time sort of brushed it off with what I felt was a sense of arrogance and dismissiveness that didn't sit right with me.

It wasn't the sole reason but definitely contributed to my looking for a different teacher.

My current teacher listened to me and responded in a way that was much more supportive and helpful.

He didn't really give me any more information but he did give me a powerful, non-verbal teaching, a transmission if you will, that had a major impact for me. 

Teaching and guiding people is a tricky thing.

[tao.te.kat]

>Teaching and guiding people is a tricky thing.

 

That's a great truth. You can be realized and not a good teacher.

 

And to some extent and maturity you dont need to be completely realized to be a good teacher.

 

Teaching is an art, and realizing is other matter. You can master both or none or one of them.

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

It is. Once it is part of your experience NOTHING is the same. 

[Mark Foote]

19 hours ago, Tommy said:

If you have not experienced real Kensho then I would suggest not disparaging Kensho as brainwashing. Not everyone sees it as you do. For me it is an opening of the mind to another awareness and not induced by brainwashing. Although you may feel it is not another stage in the progress of liberation from suffering, I see it as a milestone to opening oneself to entering the stream. Much like crossing the barrier to learning the truth of oneself.

 

Please do not discourage others from Kensho. Thanks.
 

 

You might want to take a glance at "Battle for the Mind".  Sargant made a study of religious conversion, North Korean brainwashing, trance possession.

 

Surprising bottom line from North Korea:  if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure.  It's not like they have a rational change of belief--it's like a total reversal of belief overnight, rock solid and no doubt about it.  Typical stressors are starvation, lack of sleep, disease. In the case of Christian conversion, add threat of damnation.

I'm not saying there isn't a practice of Christian belief that is mystical and allows the practitioner to transcend themselves in their actions.  Or that there isn't a similar practice in Buddhism that does the same.  I'm only saying that you want to be suspicious when people are deprived of sleep, fed very little, and pressured to have some kind of realization.

That's my view. 

 

Is there a transformative experience in Zen? Ok, I believe there is.  Does it have to do with understanding, or with insight?  No, it's a physical experience of the activity of the body in the absence of habit and volition.  There's another one that has to do with the experience of the activity of mind in the absence of habit and volition, I don't expect to attain that, but I think the first experience on a regular basis is all I need for now.  

And for me it has to do with action, not insight.

 

 

[Tommy]

10 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

You might want to take a glance at "Battle for the Mind".  Sargant made a study of religious conversion, North Korean brainwashing, trance possession.

 

Surprising bottom line from North Korea:  if you couple extreme stress with the suggestion of a different belief structure that will resolve the stress, the subject will wake up one morning with a complete acceptance of that different belief structure.  It's not like they have a rational change of belief--it's like a total reversal of belief overnight, rock solid and no doubt about it.  Typical stressors are starvation, lack of sleep, disease. In the case of Christian conversion, add threat of damnation.

Kensho is not religious conversion nor North Korean brainwashing nor trance possession. As mentioned before, Kensho is the opening of the mind's awareness. There is no different belief system that will relieve the stress. The stress, in the case of Kensho, is self induced. And not forced upon one. Being self induced it can be relieved by the self at any time.

 

When someone deprives you of food, that is forced upon you and can not be stopped by you. When you choose to fast, that is your choice and can be stopped at any time you want. The two outwardly appear to be the same. A person in starvation or being hungry. But, inwardly, vastly different. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.

 

It is quite right to express your opinion. I am sorry that I made it out as being too negative. I just do not want to see someone discouraged from seeking Kensho because it was called brainwashing. Personally, I do wish for you to experience Kensho and know for yourself its true meaning. Thanks for reading.