The Good in Men

[liminal_luke]

I´d like to talk about the good aspects of manliness and masculinity.  (I´m sure we´ve all heard enough about the bad aspects.)  Sometimes it feels like the culture is pushing men to be more like women.  Women are great and I´m glad we´re making room in the world for effeminate men.  But I´m feeling a need for a vision of positive masculinity.  What qualities are both unabashedly manly and wonderful?  How can men develop this positive masculinity?

[Taomeow]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I´d like to talk about the good aspects of manliness and masculinity.  (I´m sure we´ve all heard enough about the bad aspects.)  Sometimes it feels like the culture is pushing men to be more like women.  Women are great and I´m glad we´re making room in the world for effeminate men.  But I´m feeling a need for a vision of positive masculinity.  What qualities are both unabashedly manly and wonderful?  How can men develop this positive masculinity?

 

Protector, defender of those who are weaker (whether physically or socially -- primarily children and other endangered species, whether permanently endangered or in danger in the moment).  Someone reliable and trustworthy, not a backstabber, not a fair weather friend.  Quietly strong (primarily in spirit -- physical strength welcome but optional), genuinely kind out of a strong place, not out of weakness.  He has courage off the scale but he's not reckless, he's emotional in a healthy way, level-headed, a calming rather than agitating presence.  He is after love, not after scratching the itch.  He is after living in peace with himself and people around him, not in perpetual search of drama or conflict.  He is never cruel but don't mistake him for a push-over -- he will stand his ground, not out of stubbornness but because he has a spine.  He doesn't snore.  

 

[liminal_luke]

14 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Protector, defender of those who are weaker (whether physically or socially -- primarily children and other endangered species, whether permanently endangered or in danger in the moment).  Someone reliable and trustworthy, not a backstabber, not a fair weather friend.  Quietly strong (primarily in spirit -- physical strength welcome but optional), genuinely kind out of a strong place, not out of weakness.  He has courage off the scale but he's not reckless, he's emotional in a healthy way, level-headed, a calming rather than agitating presence.  He is after love, not after scratching the itch.  He is after living in peace with himself and people around him, not in perpetual search of drama or conflict.  He is never cruel but don't mistake him for a push-over -- he will stand his ground, not out of stubbornness but because he has a spine.  He doesn't snore.  

 

 

Someone should make a poster of this post (and a corresponding one for women) and hang it in every classroom in Lousiana en lieu of the Ten Commandments.

[thelerner]

Kipling captured it pretty well.

 

If you can keep your head when all about you
   Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
   But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
   Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don’t give way to hating,
   And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
   If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
   And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
   Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
   And stoop and build ’em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
   And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
   And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
   To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
   Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
   Or walk with kings—nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
   If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run—
   Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

This poem is in the public domain.

 

 

and this- 'The Speech' from the movie Secondhand Lions

 

Edited August 15 by thelerner

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Protector, defender of those who are weaker (whether physically or socially -- primarily children and other endangered species, whether permanently endangered or in danger in the moment).  Someone reliable and trustworthy, not a backstabber, not a fair weather friend.  Quietly strong (primarily in spirit -- physical strength welcome but optional), genuinely kind out of a strong place, not out of weakness.  He has courage off the scale but he's not reckless, he's emotional in a healthy way, level-headed, a calming rather than agitating presence.  He is after love, not after scratching the itch.  He is after living in peace with himself and people around him, not in perpetual search of drama or conflict.  He is never cruel but don't mistake him for a push-over -- he will stand his ground, not out of stubbornness but because he has a spine.  He doesn't snore.  

 

 

I think all of that can fit under my umbrella 

 

Someone who  can , not only look after and provide for themselves but can create an excess to help those that cannot or are having difficulty with it

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´d like to talk about the good aspects of manliness and masculinity.  (I´m sure we´ve all heard enough about the bad aspects.)  Sometimes it feels like the culture is pushing men to be more like women.  Women are great and I´m glad we´re making room in the world for effeminate men.  But I´m feeling a need for a vision of positive masculinity.  What qualities are both unabashedly manly and wonderful?  How can men develop this positive masculinity?

 

Good on ya Luke for broaching this subject . personally I find many are not up for the discussion. However many have felt , especially since sexual equality gets nearer ... they have lost something  and do not know what to replace it with .

 

Some went 'snaggy ' but found that was 'too soft for them ' .  There are new modes   one is popular and to do with 4 acrchetypes ; the 'Robert Johnson ' Magician warrior ... etc etc   ( I have forgotten but its commonly out there . )

 

There is one I sorta adopt and modify  ; 'Samurai '  , not only be a 'warrior ' but   paint , appreciate nature, arrange flowers, make a  good cup of tea , write good poetry ... and neatly .   I think we discussed this before  re 'manliness' ?

 

My personal one is a 7 fold system  of qualities to develop  , based on   Crowley's '7 heads of the Beast ' new aeonic masculine consciousness  (bound to cause some protest I suppose ) ;

An angel, a poet, a stayr, a  free woman, a valiant man, a saint  and a ' lion - serpent ' .  So, 7 consciousnesses  to 'cultivate' .

 

 

or to work it simpler  ; the 7 planets .

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Nungali

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Good on ya Luke for broaching this subject . personally I find many are not up for the discussion. However many have felt , especially since sexual equality gets nearer ... they have lost something  and do not know what to replace it with .

 

Some went 'snaggy ' but found that was 'too soft for them ' .  There are new modes   one is popular and to do with 4 acrchetypes ; the 'Robert Johnson ' Magician warrior ... etc etc   ( I have forgotten but its commonly out there . )

 

There is one I sorta adopt and modify  ; 'Samurai '  , not only be a 'warrior ' but   paint , appreciate nature, arrange flowers, make a  good cup of tea , write good poetry ... and neatly .   I think we discussed this before  re 'manliness' ?

 

My personal one is a 7 fold system  of qualities to develop  , based on   Crowley's '7 heads of the Beast ' new aeonic masculine consciousness  (bound to cause some protest I suppose ) ;

An angel, a poet, a stayr, a  free woman, a valiant man, a warrior and a ' lion - serpent ' .  So, 7 consciousnesses  to 'cultivate' .

 

 

Thanks, Nungali.  I do think it´s important to have positive images and archtypes of manhood -- and that these are largely missing for many people.  Interesting that you include appreciating nature, arranging flowers, and making good tea among masculine qualities.  

 

I´ve never thought of myself as a particularly manly person.  As an adolescent I was into books and math rather than cars or sports or girls.  I can´t fix things.  I´m not the guy you call when you need to lift heavy boxes.  What I am is emotionally resourceful.  I pay attention to the things people say, often remembering snatches of conversation years later.  People often feel like I understand them, which,  I think, is my way of taking care of friends and family.  I can´t repair your refrigerator but I can make you feel known.  Is that a masculine quality?  I never thought so but maybe it is.  

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks, Nungali.  I do think it´s important to have positive images and archtypes of manhood -- and that these are largely missing for many people.  Interesting that you include appreciating nature, arranging flowers, and making good tea among masculine qualities.  

 

 

What is masculine (as well as feminine) changes from culture to culture of course, some for the better, some for the worse.  I remember seeing a Japanese movie in my teens, a rare occasion at the time, where a mighty general, as macho/samurai as they get,  lost a decisive battle.  In his headquarters he receives the report, tells everyone to leave, and allows himself to react emotionally.  The way he does it is, he picks up a fan and starts slowly dancing, striking poses, fanning himself, and solemnly reciting a sad poem of defeat, with eyes full of sorrow.  It is a highly ritualized performance -- with no spectators, he only expresses his feelings to himself in this manner.  Back then I found it entirely incomprehensible and, to be honest, rather comical.  Now I understand a bit better what it was all about.       

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks, Nungali.  I do think it´s important to have positive images and archtypes of manhood -- and that these are largely missing for many people.  Interesting that you include appreciating nature, arranging flowers, and making good tea among masculine qualities.  

 

Kachoufugetsu , ikebana and  otemae  , liminal_luke  Sama .

 

 

all samurai arts  (as well as blade , archery  and unarmed combat   )

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

I´ve never thought of myself as a particularly manly person.  As an adolescent I was into books and math rather than cars or sports or girls.  I can´t fix things.  I´m not the guy you call when you need to lift heavy boxes.  What I am is emotionally resourceful.  I pay attention to the things people say, often remembering snatches of conversation years later.  People often feel like I understand them, which,  I think, is my way of taking care of friends and family.  I can´t repair your refrigerator but I can make you feel known.  Is that a masculine quality?  I never thought so but maybe it is.  

 

Would you like a date with my GF ?    

 

That's    just what she  is  looking for ! 

 

.

Edited August 16 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

What is masculine (as well as feminine) changes from culture to culture of course, some for the better, some for the worse.  I remember seeing a Japanese movie in my teens, a rare occasion at the time, where a mighty general, as macho/samurai as they get,  lost a decisive battle.  In his headquarters he receives the report, tells everyone to leave, and allows himself to react emotionally.  The way he does it is, he picks up a fan and starts slowly dancing, striking poses, fanning himself, and solemnly reciting a sad poem of defeat, with eyes full of sorrow.  It is a highly ritualized performance -- with no spectators, he only expresses his feelings to himself in this manner.  Back then I found it entirely incomprehensible and, to be honest, rather comical.  Now I understand a bit better what it was all about.       

 

 

I always loved the polarity of the tradition in these two movies ;  

 

Nasty samurai - 'Sword of Doom '

 

Nice samurai - ' The Twilight Samurai '.

 

 

The Good in men

 

 

 

The bad in men

 

 

[snowymountains]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´d like to talk about the good aspects of manliness and masculinity.  (I´m sure we´ve all heard enough about the bad aspects.)  Sometimes it feels like the culture is pushing men to be more like women.  Women are great and I´m glad we´re making room in the world for effeminate men.  But I´m feeling a need for a vision of positive masculinity.  What qualities are both unabashedly manly and wonderful?  How can men develop this positive masculinity?

 

Men have a greater variability in their traits compared to women Variability hypothesis - Wikipedia , it's different, not better or worse.

Jung had written a couple of books on men & the modern world btw.

 

From your title "The Good in men", I'd keep the title itself, there's no need to introject be like this or be like that, people do have an innate capacity for good. 

After all isn't it 1960s-style role model introjections that proved to be disfunctional today?

 

Men will be better served if they process their thoughts, emotions, sensations, environment, than if they try to emulate a role model.

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Men have a greater variability in their traits compared to women Variability hypothesis - Wikipedia , it's different, not better or worse.

 

Haven't perused the wiki link (wiki articles come and go but the earth abides forever, per Ecclesiastes), but in my experience, it's not true at all.  Perhaps social limitations on women's roles, of various severity in different times and societies, may have created this illusion, and "they're all the same" is one of the misogynistic put-downs men affected with the malaise of misogyny like to throw at women --

 but give women a chance to lift their heads from chores and responsibilities and secondary/submissive roles, and you will find a great variety of female traits.  And even within patriarchy-imposed limitations you may find matriarchs of large families and hired assassins (a traditionally female occupation in China for many centuries), and any other kinds of variability. 

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Men will be better served if they process their thoughts, emotions, sensations, environment, than if they try to emulate a role model.

 

     What if role models are fathers, uncles, grandfathers, older brothers who process their thoughts, emotions, etc. in a particular way?   "A role model" offered within a bogus society is bound to be something fake, but real people in a boy's life are bound to be default role models, both consciously and (to a greater extent) unconsciously emulated.  (Or rebelled against, which is also a form of following in the footsteps -- but in the opposite direction, not a freely chosen one but a contrarian one, preselected out of spite.)  Humans develop by emulating -- which is normal.  Tao patterns itself on itself.  Of course when what's available for emulation is corrupted from the get-go...  sigh.         

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Haven't perused the wiki link (wiki articles come and go but the earth abides forever, per Ecclesiastes), but in my experience, it's not true at all.  Perhaps social limitations on women's roles, of various severity in different times and societies, may have created this illusion, and "they're all the same" is one of the misogynistic put-downs men affected with the malaise of misogyny like to throw at women --

 but give women a chance to lift their heads from chores and responsibilities and secondary/submissive roles, and you will find a great variety of female traits.  And even within patriarchy-imposed limitations you may find matriarchs of large families and hired assassins (a traditionally female occupation in China for many centuries), and any other kinds of variability. 

 

It's not attributed to social limitations. It's also about variability for per trait btw, not about variety of traits. It's not a misogynistic put-down either.

 

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

   What if role models are fathers, uncles, grandfathers, older brothers who process their thoughts, emotions, etc. in a particular way?   "A role model" offered within a bogus society is bound to be something fake, but real people in a boy's life are bound to be default role models, both consciously and (to a greater extent) unconsciously emulated.  (Or rebelled against, which is also a form of following in the footsteps -- but in the opposite direction, not a freely chosen one but a contrarian one, preselected out of spite.)  Humans develop by emulating -- which is normal.  Tao patterns itself on itself.  Of course when what's available for emulation is corrupted from the get-go...  sigh.         

 

All these, fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers etc are introjected, but a newborn cannot order how these people will be like.

Society likely is a core cause, simply because when 90% of the population in the developed world has a form of disorder at clinical or subclinical level - when this is not observed in other countries.

Personally I believe the source to be societal, but this will be a long discussion I'd rather not enter, due to economy of time

[liminal_luke]

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

From your title "The Good in men", I'd keep the title itself, there's no need to introject be like this or be like that, people do have an innate capacity for good. 

After all isn't it 1960s-style role model introjections that proved to be disfunctional today?

 

Men will be better served if they process their thoughts, emotions, sensations, environment, than if they try to emulate a role model.

 

Much depends on context.  It wasn´t useful, when I was a kid, to absorb cultural norms around being a man like "boys don´t cry" and other such nonsense.  Admonitions to "man up" are often shaming -- and who needs that?  But I´ve found some of the sharing around masculinity in this thread to be inspiring.  Rather than use other people´s understanding of manliness as a way of assessing whether or not I measure up, I am considering whether or not there are manly qualities that appeal to me and that I might want to cultivate.

[snowymountains]

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Much depends on context.  It wasn´t useful, when I was a kid, to absorb cultural norms around being a man like "boys don´t cry" and other such nonsense.  Admonitions to "man up" are often shaming -- and who needs that?  But I´ve found some of the sharing around masculinity in this thread to be inspiring.  Rather than use other people´s understanding of manliness as a way of assessing whether or not I measure up, I am considering whether or not there are manly qualities that appeal to me and that I might want to cultivate.

 

But any qualities stated here by posters will, by definition, be someone else's list of preferred qualities and emulating them/cultivating them is sort of creating an ideal self. Only by looking inwards can the question of what to cultivate be answered, every person is different.

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

 Only by looking inwards can the question of what to cultivate be answered, every person is different.

 

I´m not so sure.  Why shouldn´t I allow myself to be influenced by other Bums and the wider world?  The decision about what qualities to cultivate is ultimately up to me, of course, but I don´t live in a vacuum.  There´s a tendency in modern society, especially in psychotherapeutic culture, to exalt individualism and deemphasize the communal.  We hear much about "codependence" and "boundaries."  People are encouraged to do what´s best for them personally, often without concern for the welfare of others.  Is it any wonder that many feel lonely?  

 

My partner suffers from a psychotic disorder.  More than one psychologist has suggested to me that if my mental health was better I would leave him.  And who knows -- perhaps I would be happier, less burdened, as a single guy.  I wouldn´t counsel a young person seeking love to choose someone with schizophrenia.  But I´ve stuck with my partner through the challenges.  Why?  Because I love him, because caring for him is in line with my values, because I´m nuts.  Take your pick.  I´ve meandered far from the topic at hand but I hope you get my point: we don´t live our lives alone.  Human beings do best balancing our own internal sense of things with information and influence from the surrounding culture.

[snowymountains]

32 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m not so sure.  Why shouldn´t I allow myself to be influenced by other Bums and the wider world?  The decision about what qualities to cultivate is ultimately up to me, of course, but I don´t live in a vacuum.  There´s a tendency in modern society, especially in psychotherapeutic culture, to exalt individualism and deemphasize the communal.  We hear much about "codependence" and "boundaries."  People are encouraged to do what´s best for them personally, often without concern for the welfare of others.  Is it any wonder that many feel lonely?  

 

What I'm suggesting is entirely different to self-interest, boundaries and codependence.

It's that our organism knows best (not the self), as opposed to a making logical decision by selecting from a proposed list.

 

32 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

My partner suffers from a psychotic disorder.  More than one psychologist has suggested to me that if my mental health was better I would leave him.  And who knows -- perhaps I would be happier, less burdened, as a single guy.  I wouldn´t counsel a young person seeking love to choose someone with schizophrenia.  But I´ve stuck with my partner through the challenges.  Why?  Because I love him, because caring for him is in line with my values, because I´m nuts.  Take your pick.  I´ve meandered far from the topic at hand but I hope you get my point: we don´t live our lives alone.  Human beings do best balancing our own internal sense of things with information and influence from the surrounding culture.

 

A therapist is not meant to make decisions on behalf of the client nor suggestions which aren't linked to a client goal and these would be strictly in the realm of psychoeducation and tools, not what to do with life decisions the client is responsible for. This does sound very off - the leave/stay with partner, it's surprising someone would say that tbh. 

I can't really know what happened, there's a range of possibilities, being unprofessional is one of them but there are other possibilities in the realm of interventions - if their phrasing wasn't like exactly like that and it was subject to a wider range of interpretations.

 

It's a long discussion but ultimately trying to copy a role model is of limited effectiveness and may actually not be a good thing.

Edited August 16 by snowymountains

[Taomeow]

27 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m not so sure.  Why shouldn´t I allow myself to be influenced by other Bums and the wider world?  The decision about what qualities to cultivate is ultimately up to me, of course, but I don´t live in a vacuum.  There´s a tendency in modern society, especially in psychotherapeutic culture, to exalt individualism and deemphasize the communal.  We hear much about "codependence" and "boundaries."  People are encouraged to do what´s best for them personally, often without concern for the welfare of others.  Is it any wonder that many feel lonely?  

 

My partner suffers from a psychotic disorder.  More than one psychologist has suggested to me that if my mental health was better I would leave him.  And who knows -- perhaps I would be happier, less burdened, as a single guy.  I wouldn´t counsel a young person seeking love to choose someone with schizophrenia.  But I´ve stuck with my partner through the challenges.  Why?  Because I love him, because caring for him is in line with my values, because I´m nuts.  Take your pick.  I´ve meandered far from the topic at hand but I hope you get my point: we don´t live our lives alone.  Human beings do best balancing our own internal sense of things with information and influence from the surrounding culture.

 

I think loyalty through thick and though thin makes life harder -- while its absence makes it about as meaningful as a cardboard cut-out of a person.  An imitation of humanhood.  

 

I don't mean loyalty to those who abuse us or exploit us or take unfair advantage of us.  For them, screw you is the only adequate response.  Loyalty is precious and not to be wasted.  But neither is it a good idea to withhold it from those close to us just because they've hit difficulties, or because it makes our life more difficult.  I seriously believe the world will come to an end due to an unnaturally and insidiously cultivated lack of loyalty between people, a species nature herself designed to count on each other and depend on each other.  

 

(An aside.  I used to like a lot a very famous and talented icon of the 20th century Russian poetry, Marina Tsvetaeva -- until I learned that during the civil war when food became scarce she decided that supporting both her daughters was too much and abandoned the younger one, a toddler, at an orphanage where the latter soon died of hunger.  In her diary Marina referred to that toddler as a greedy bitch who was unworthy of sharing food with, and gloated that when she was giving food to the older one, bypassing the younger, the younger one followed her with "those stupid greedy eyes" in vain.  That was the end of Marina Tsvetaeva's poetry for me --I didn't donate her books, I threw them in the dumpster.  I hate it when fans of her writings (who are many) try to downplay this "episode," citing her difficult life and how bad everything was for her yada yada.  All true -- years later she committed suicide, in part because of betrayal by her beloved son.  What goes around comes around...)  

 

  

[thelerner]

Hard times shift most people.. lower.  Maybe great stays great** but good often becomes increasingly apathetic.    The norm turns bad and bad turns worse.  

Famine, civil wars, proxy wars.. the stress of depravation, bring out the worst in people.

 

Few blame unrest and revolution on drought, but I think in the modern world the domino affect of long drought is the match that sets nations on fire. 

 

**maybe that is the definition of great to stay good and light when the world turns dark.  

 

Edited August 16 by thelerner

[Cobie]

 

8 hours ago, Taomeow said:

… god forbid …

 

18 hours ago, Taomeow said:

… god forbid …

 I thought you were a Taoist? 
 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Men have a greater variability in their traits compared to women Variability hypothesis - Wikipedia , it's different, not better or worse.

Jung had written a couple of books on men & the modern world btw.

 

From your title "The Good in men", I'd keep the title itself, there's no need to introject be like this or be like that, people do have an innate capacity for good. 

After all isn't it 1960s-style role model introjections that proved to be disfunctional today?

 

Men will be better served if they process their thoughts, emotions, sensations, environment, than if they try to emulate a role model.

 

I disagree ... unless you mean 'hipsters'  .    

 

Explore the territory without a map ?

 

'  Grow up '  without an elder to admire / emulate ?

 

If the model is good ,  I suppose the 'model' alone with no 'abiding spirit'  is what causes the 'dysfunction '  .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Haven't perused the wiki link (wiki articles come and go but the earth abides forever, per Ecclesiastes), but in my experience, it's not true at all.  Perhaps social limitations on women's roles, of various severity in different times and societies, may have created this illusion, and "they're all the same" is one of the misogynistic put-downs men affected with the malaise of misogyny like to throw at women --

 but give women a chance to lift their heads from chores and responsibilities and secondary/submissive roles, and you will find a great variety of female traits.  And even within patriarchy-imposed limitations you may find matriarchs of large families and hired assassins (a traditionally female occupation in China for many centuries), and any other kinds of variability. 

 

Or when there is a war and the men are 'otherwise preoccupied' - all of a sudden  the women can do all this stuff they could not do before .  Curious .    

 

 

     What if role models are fathers, uncles, grandfathers, older brothers who process their thoughts, emotions, etc. in a particular way?   "A role model" offered within a bogus society is bound to be something fake, but real people in a boy's life are bound to be default role models, both consciously and (to a greater extent) unconsciously emulated.  (Or rebelled against, which is also a form of following in the footsteps -- but in the opposite direction, not a freely chosen one but a contrarian one, preselected out of spite.)  Humans develop by emulating -- which is normal.  Tao patterns itself on itself.  Of course when what's available for emulation is corrupted from the get-go...  sigh.      

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m not so sure.  Why shouldn´t I allow myself to be influenced by other Bums and the wider world?  The decision about what qualities to cultivate is ultimately up to me, of course, but I don´t live in a vacuum.  There´s a tendency in modern society, especially in psychotherapeutic culture, to exalt individualism and deemphasize the communal.  We hear much about "codependence" and "boundaries."  People are encouraged to do what´s best for them personally, often without concern for the welfare of others.  Is it any wonder that many feel lonely?  

 

My partner suffers from a psychotic disorder.  More than one psychologist has suggested to me that if my mental health was better I would leave him.  And who knows -- perhaps I would be happier, less burdened, as a single guy.  I wouldn´t counsel a young person seeking love to choose someone with schizophrenia.  But I´ve stuck with my partner through the challenges.  Why?  Because I love him, because caring for him is in line with my values, because I´m nuts.  Take your pick.  I´ve meandered far from the topic at hand but I hope you get my point: we don´t live our lives alone.  Human beings do best balancing our own internal sense of things with information and influence from the surrounding culture.

 

I dont think you have .

 

Here is a good male quality ;

 

Continuing to do what YOU think is right , amidst opposing 'advice' .   Steering the course , holding firm to the rudder .  Not throwing the towel in .

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

 I thought you were a Taoist? 
 

 

 

Why would that deprive me of my inalienable right to use English phraseology?  

[Nungali]

... at least you got to read it before it was deleted