thread for posts that are easy to understand by most people

[Cobie]

edit: old title was ‘What is ‘non-duality’?’ But I’ve given up on Buddhism. New title:

 

Post in a way understandable to a 5 year old. 
 

含德之厚，比於赤子。

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(DDJ Ch. 55)

 

edit #2: again a new title, “thread for posts that are easy to understand by most people” (and I mean “most people” generic, not just most people on the forum).

 

Edited August 25 by Cobie

[Sherman Krebbs]

it means you are one human bean.  your thoughts and your body and your feelings are all part of one amazing thing--you.  it means that you are supposed to keep acting like your five year old self, without worrying too much about it. 

[S:C]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

The title says it all. Please explain it to me in a way understandable to a 5 year old. 
 

  Hide contents

含德之厚，比於赤子。

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(DDJ Ch. 55)

 

My understanding:

The ideal of the divine/light/energy/union/dissolution/unreasonable happiness [placeholder…] is to be found and recognized in the real present moment and not in a distant far away different layer of ‚reality‘. 
Un-separable. Giving up on absolutes.

Edited August 16 by S:C

[Cobie]

 

On 16/08/2024 at 11:50 PM, Sherman Krebbs said:

it means you are one human bean.  your thoughts and your body and your feelings are all part of one amazing thing--you. 

Spot on!

 

Quote

 … you are supposed to keep acting like your five year old self, without worrying too much about it. 

  I love this reply.  

 

 

Edited August 20 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, S:C said:

… not in a distant far away different layer of ‚reality‘ …

What?   It’s not in a ‘GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY’. (cry emoji) 

 

 

Quote

… in the real present moment …

ok then. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

… it means that you are supposed to keep acting like your five year old self, without worrying too much about it. 

 

 @ChiDragon (you will not like this ) this is the real meaning of 無為 !
無為 wu2 wei2 - not behaving as a ‘civil servant’, but being your natural self. 

 

 

Edited August 16 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

This is only

the act of wu wei.

[Cobie]

10 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

This is only

the act of wu wei.

What else is there? 

 

 

[stirling]

We are used to seeing things from the perspective of being a separate person in a world of objects who moves in time and space.

 

There can be a permanent shift of perspective where instead there is an endless, infinite field of un-labeled phenomena fluxing here, now, lacking space, time, or anything that has existence of its own or could be labeled.

 

One way to describe it, amongst countless, inadequate ways of labeling it, is that this is seeing the "non-dual" nature of reality. It looks mostly the same in both perspectives except that the salient quality that pervades all of it is this "non-duality" or "emptiness". 

[Cobie]

 

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

… the non-dual pov too has its pluses and minuses.

Lol, did you think that through?

 

 

[Cobie]

15 minutes ago, stirling said:

… seeing things from the perspective of being a separate person in a world of objects who moves in time and space.

 

That’s my external world ‘normal’.

 

Quote

… an endless, infinite field of un-labeled phenomena fluxing here, now, lacking space, time, or anything that has existence of its own or could be labeled.

 

That’s my internal world ‘normal’.

 

 

Edited August 18 by Cobie

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Lol, did you think that through?

 

 

 

I did, is there a reason to copy it into a different thread?

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

I did,

 

Try again.
 

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

is there a reason to copy it into a different thread?

Yes, this is my thread. 

 

 

[stirling]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Righto, that’s my internal world ‘normal’.

 

If you have insight, it is your "external" world too, or, to be more clear, there ISN'T an internal or external world... that is just another duality that falls away. 

 

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Yeah... not 5 year old friendly. Sorry. How about this:

 

The relative view and absolute view see the same thing, the same "world", except the "non-dual" absolute sees through the illusion of perceiving a landscape of separateness, or "dualities".

[snowymountains]

Just now, Cobie said:

 

Try again.

 

Thanks, but it's a no

 

Just now, Cobie said:

 

 

Yes, this is my thread. 

 

 

 

It's not the thread I participated in though.

[Cobie]

Just now, stirling said:

 

If you have insight, it is your "external" world too, or, to be more clear, there ISN'T an internal or external world... that is just another duality that falls away. 

 

 

Yeah... not 5 year old friendly. Sorry. How about this:

 

The relative view and absolute view see the same thing, the same "world", except the "non-dual" absolute sees through the illusion of perceiving a landscape of separateness, or "dualities".

I think it’s actually the other way round. When insight is gained one realises what is “real’ (the external world) and what’s not ‘real’ (one’s internal world).

 

 

[stirling]

For there to be an inside or outside "world" there would have to be a "duality", as well as a separate observer to own that internal "world".

[Cobie]

14 minutes ago, stirling said:

For there to be an inside or outside "world" there would have to be a ‘duality’, …

 

Yes, it’s a “duality”.

 

Quote

… as well as a separate observer to own that internal "world".

Yes, it’s called ‘me’!  

 

 

Edited August 18 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

On 8/16/2024 at 3:38 PM, Cobie said:

 

 

 @ChiDragon (you will not like this ) this is the real meaning of 無為 !
無為 wu2 wei2 - not behaving as a ‘civil servant’, but being your natural self. 

 

 

Wu wei is not being your natural self,  but "being your natural self" is being Wu wei!

[Cobie]

On 20/08/2024 at 12:15 AM, ChiDragon said:

Wu wei is not being your natural self,  but "being your natural self" is being Wu wei!

Nice one.  As you said before (see I listen  ), 無為 wu2 wei2 (in the DDJ) means - do not interfere with nature, do not force things to happen. So that’s a much wider meaning which includes ‘being yourself’.

 

 

Edited August 20 by Cobie

[Mark Foote]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:42 PM, Cobie said:

 

Post in a way understandable to a 5 year old. 
 

含德之厚，比於赤子。

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(DDJ Ch. 55)

 

... Now we understand what is meant by concentrating the ch'i, but what are the resulting benefits to the body? Our answer is that this has already been explained by Lao tzu when he says, "In concentrating your ch'i and becoming soft, can you be like an infant?" ... The infant's body is pure yang. Pure yang means that the ch'i is abundant. When the ch'i is abundant, then the blood is sufficient and the sinews are soft. Soft sinews are the special characteristic of the infant.  If people who are not far from death are to have any hope of returning to infancy, it is only through concentrating the ch'i and becoming soft....

( “Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Cheng Man-Ch’ing trans. Douglas Wile, pp 11-12)

 

 

And now something of the how, maybe for ages 13 and up:

 

The classic literature of Tai Chi appears to identify the ligaments of the body as a source of activity.  The literature describes three levels in the development of “ch’i”, a word that literally translates as “breath” but in practice is taken to refer to a fundamental energy of the body, and each of the three levels has three stages.

 

The stages of the first level are:

 

“… relaxing the ligaments from the shoulder to the wrist”; “from the hip joint to the heel”; “from the sacrum to the headtop”.   

 

(“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, tr. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, © 1985 Juliana T. Cheng, p 77-78)

 

 

Unlike the contraction and relaxation of muscles, the stretch and resile of ligaments can’t be voluntarily controlled.  The muscles across the joints can, however, be relaxed in such a way as to allow the natural stretch and resile of ligaments–that would seem to be the meaning of the advice to “relax the ligaments”. 

 

The stages of the second level are:

 

“sinking ch’i to the tan t’ien” (a point below and behind the navel); “the ch’i reaches the arms and legs”; “the ch’i moves through the sacrum (wei lu) to the top of the head (ni wan)”.  

 

(ibid)

 

Tai Ch’i master Cheng Man Ch’ing advised that the ch’i will collect at the tan-t’ien until it overflows into the tailbone and transits to the top of the head, but he warned against any attempt to force the flow.

 

Omori Sogen cautioned similarly:

 

… It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting.  We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force.   

 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training: A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, © Daihonzen Chozen-ji; p 59)

 

 

I would posit that the patterns in the development of ch’i reflect involuntary activity of the body generated in the stretch of ligaments. There is, in addition, a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that can be effected by pressure generated in the abdominal cavity and that may quite possibly depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract (see my Kinesthesiology of Fascial Support). 

 

The final level in the development of ch’i concerns “chin”.  According to the classics, “chin comes from the ligaments” (“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, tr. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, © 1985 Juliana T. Cheng, p 77-78). 

 

The three stages of the final level are:

 

“t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”; “omnipotence”.   (ibid)

 

 

Another translator rendered the last stage above as “perfect clarity” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, © 1982 Douglas Wile, p 57). In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is “the pureness of (one’s) mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration.

 

The Tai Chi classics emphasize relaxation. For me, calm is also required with regard to the stretch of ligaments, if “automatic movement” is to be realized.  The stretch of a ligament prior to strain is small (6%), and I would say that automatic movement is only initiated at the edge of the range. 

 

Cheng Man Ch’ing mentioned a Chinese description of seated meditation, “straighten the chest and sit precariously”–I think that also speaks to the necessity of calm (ibid, p 21).

 

In my experience, “automatic” activity in the movement of breath can at times depend on the relaxation of particular muscle groups and the exercise of calm with regard to the stretch of particular ligaments.  I believe that a pattern in the circulation of “automatic” activity can develop, especially when a bent-knee posture or carriage is maintained over a period of time.

 

(Appendix--A Way of Living)

[doc benway]

On 8/16/2024 at 3:42 PM, Cobie said:

edit: old title was ‘What is ‘non-duality’?’ But I’ve given up on Buddhism.

 

Post in a way understandable to a 5 year old. 
 

含德之厚，比於赤子。

han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3 
He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant.

(DDJ Ch. 55)

 

 

 

Experience the world around you nakedly and directly, without interpretation or conditioning.

Act genuinely, from your gut and heart, without shame or self-consciousness.

Don't be afraid to express what you need and feel no obligation to satisfy the expectations of others. 

 

 

[Tommy]

For 5 year old to understand, ...

All that you are is made up of all the thoughts that you have had.

[silent thunder]

Once, a looooong ago.  A star (or perhaps two) burst into Supernovae...

 

This incredibly powerful explosion resulted in the formation of the more complex and heavy elements that coalesced into our Solar System and created its Star, our Home Planet and Life as we experience it.

[Cobie]

 

On 21/08/2024 at 2:28 AM, Mark Foote said:

... Now we understand …

Have a nice day. 
 

 

Edited August 26 by Cobie