Idol worship misunderstood...

[old3bob]

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"Idol worship" is fundamentally and totally misunderstood in the Abrahamic religions but not in some "eastern" ways per this quote:  So strange to some but not others...

 

"SHLOKA 108
We worship God Siva and the Gods who by their infinite powers spiritually hover over and indwell the image, or murti, which we revere as their temporary body. We commune with them through the ritual act of puja. Aum.

BHASHYA
The stone or metal Deity images are not mere symbols of the Gods; they are the form through which their love, power and blessings flood forth into this world. We may liken this mystery to our ability to communicate with others through the telephone. We do not talk to the telephone; rather we use a telephone as a means of communication with another person who is perhaps thousands of miles away. Without the telephone, we could not converse across such distances; and without the sanctified murti in the temple or shrine we cannot easily commune with the Deity. His vibration and presence can be felt in the image, and He can use the image as a temporary physical-plane body or channel. As we progress in our worship, we begin to adore the image as the Deity's physical body, for we know that He is actually present and conscious in it during puja, aware of our thoughts and feelings and even sensing the pujari's gentle touch on the metal or stone.

The Vedas exclaim," Come down to us, Rudra, who art in the high mountains. Come and let the light of thy face, free from fear and evil, shine upon us. Come to us with thy love.”Aum Namah Sivaya.”
GURUDEVA"

 

Edited Saturday at 09:12 AM by old3bob

[dwai]

Nice post!
 

We worship a vigraha - an idol becomes a vigraha after consecration following proper method of prana pratishtha. The energy of the deity is established in the murti. Once consecrated, the vigraha and the temple where it is located become the abode of the deity. 
 

https://isha.sadhguru.org/en/wisdom/article/prana-pratishtha-the-science-of-consecration#

[doc benway]

On 8/19/2024 at 9:19 AM, old3bob said:

"Idol worship" is fundamentally and totally misunderstood in the Abrahamic religions but not in some "eastern" ways per this quote:  So strange to some but not others...

 

I guess it's possible this practice is "fundamentally and totally misunderstood" but I think it's also possible that it is reasonably well understood but that a different approach is preferable to some in both East and West. Some prefer not to use fixed images to represent and communicate with deities but rather prefer words and ideas. Some prefer letting go of all images, even words and ideas, and being open to what is left when all tangible representations are released. Different strokes and all that... 

[old3bob]

"Idol worship" is fundamentally and totally misunderstood in the Abrahamic religions... "

 

Well this could be better qualified by saying those that see idol worship as a sin and error along with those who violently tear down temples, destroy idols and cause great harm to or murder the people that use them as totally misunderstanding the practice.

 

Many Christians and Muslims have done so against native, and eastern faiths and its peoples. (taking place in and around India, along with the far and middle east being major areas where it has happened as recorded in history or is happening now) For example and described as:

 

"Convert or die" is a policy that forces religious group to renounce their faith or identity under the threat of death or harm. These policies can cause physical harm, but they often cause long-term mental harm to the individuals who are forced to convert. The Genocide Convention considers "convert or die" policies to be genocide, even though (or if, my add-in) they don't involve the "physical or biological destruction of a group". 

Edited August 27 by old3bob

[Thrice Daily]

It should always be a choice shouldn’t it. 
 

It’s personal how people relate to each Deity and should be respected I’d say. 

Do you think it is important for these Idols to always be consecrated before being used? Would they be dangerous potentially,  Or would you say they would simply not hold the same power?

 

Edited October 8 by Thrice Daily

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you think it is important for these Idols to always be consecrated before being used? Would they be dangerous potentially,  Or would you say they would simply not hold the same power?

Consecration is needed for Hindu deities. Ideally by someone who knows what they’re doing - there are protocols and steps necessary for proper consecration. 
 

Of course, it also depends on the individual practitioner’s capabilities too, if worshiping at home. I’ve seen my grandfather do the consecration himself on special occasions (but he knew what he was doing), and had proper training, initiation, and a regular practice for many decades. 

[Ascetic]

This is in regard to a story told by Nan Huai Chin (maybe someone else), where in Early China there was a Merchant who would pluck the Yin of women and then throw them aside. At one point they died, throwing up a large amount of Silver Liquid/Life Force. 
But technically they still achieved longevity and a gain that is not considered natural to a Daoist today.

The Yin of Divinities is very different from humans, it's very odd. Taking Yin from Kali is such a different example then from a Mortal Woman. Even through Idol worship the gain in resources is very soft.

Even if it is just an Idol of Kali or another Destroyer, somehow the Yin can still be reached or accessed. Its a difficult dichotomy because being able to do things to what you worship almost collapses the healthiness/sturdiness of an Idol. Going from some omnipotent origin to instead being some reachable force.

An Idol really is just an Idol, but Karma plays an integral place in worship. Some people can really steal Yin from a Goddess and still communicate as  if nothing had happened, but what are they really causing for themselves? There is a weight to things done or have been done that ignorance holds as a burning battery.


But its a interesting dichotomy and moral test to worship a God when it is entirely reliant on your own vision.

Things like Karma, and how you treat a Goddess in Idol might change if you had performed some evil tune or worshipped without reverence.

I think in some sense the worship of an Idol is to make it more Potent In the Real World. Obviously an Idol of Kali contains no physical resources, but to allow that to happen is something people consider impossible when it is not. 

Most people go to Idols for guidance, my expectation for Idols is reach for resources or consumption.

Edited October 8 by Ascetic

[Ascetic]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

It should always be a choice shouldn’t it. 
 

It’s personal how people relate to each Deity and should be respected I’d say. 

Do you think it is important for these Idols to always be consecrated before being used? Would they be dangerous potentially,  Or would you say they would simply not hold the same power?

 

 I'd say its a difficult relationship, one that is one sided and entirely reliant on the other person. I suppose purity eats through that sturdiness like acid splits metal. One should never deny any practical gain from worship/idol placement but at the same time there is need to hold reverence so that thing above you remains in the Sky.

So many things that turn a statue back into a statue, and gold eaten into dirt once more. Apologies for the adrupt/painful rhetoric; not my intention to hold disrespect.

[Nungali]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:53 PM, doc benway said:

 

I guess it's possible this practice is "fundamentally and totally misunderstood" but I think it's also possible that it is reasonably well understood but that a different approach is preferable to some in both East and West. Some prefer not to use fixed images to represent and communicate with deities but rather prefer words and ideas. Some prefer letting go of all images, even words and ideas, and being open to what is left when all tangible representations are released. Different strokes and all that... 

 

Indeed , the 'different stoke' in ritual magick is to do the opposite  eg;

 

If I have an 'Idol'  ... image or statue of, say, Venus , I will have the form of that God/dess to attract the God/dess , their energy and presence - as described  above -  but as well ( and this part is probably the same in the eastern traditions ) her 'favorite'  perfume (incense attributed to Venus ),  her four-fold color scheme in temple furniture, objects and vestments ,  her 'weapons and tools'  and offerings on the altar ...  the oration and the dance will be 'Venusian '  ... and so on .  Eg, dont use tobacco as Venus incense / offering ... that's for Mars , and so on .

 

We call this active and passive  meditation , in what you described would be passive , to still the mind and  not let it interfere  with 'the work at hand ' , the active method is to work with mind's 'monkey mind nature' and allow it free reign to wander and associate , but now in an environment  that is a bit like a 'hall of mirrors ' , where all stimulus and observations throws the mind and senses  back to the 'Venusian vibrations ' . 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

It should always be a choice shouldn’t it. 
 

It’s personal how people relate to each Deity and should be respected I’d say. 

Do you think it is important for these Idols to always be consecrated before being used? Would they be dangerous potentially,  Or would you say they would simply not hold the same power?

 

 

That depends ... if its an 'empty ceremony' then it doesn't matter one way or the other .

 

But consecrated is more than just an idea , its actually meaning is;  'dedicated to its singular purpose' .

 

Here is a story that amused me ; woman friend had an ex that was into magic . They fought , she chucked a tantie and as well chucked some of his stuff out the window , including what he valued  as his 'sacred chalice' , one of his four main elemental tools ... he was horrified ; :" You threw my sacred heart out the window ... that's my love and my heart and my emotions and feelings . "

 

Her response ?

 

" That's the problem with you ;  Your 'sacred chalice' had old candle wax in it where you used it as a candle stick, various stubbed out cigarette buts because you use it as an occasional ashtray  , some old chewing gum .... " 

 

 

[old3bob]

17 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

It should always be a choice shouldn’t it. 
 

It’s personal how people relate to each Deity and should be respected I’d say. 

Do you think it is important for these Idols to always be consecrated before being used? Would they be dangerous potentially,  Or would you say they would simply not hold the same power?

 

 

some might be dangerous if misused,  as it is with some some mantras. (Btw. Om by itself is a safe universal mantra.) There is that saying of,  "do not suffer fools gladly" which is true with certain guardian beings who are very stern.

Edited October 9 by old3bob

[Thrice Daily]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 "do not suffer fools gladly" which is true with certain guardian beings who are very stern.

mmm yes I resonate with this.
 

I once went for a mass in a church that was very old, but it was unconsecrated , on private grounds which I think had pagan significance in the past (maybe)

 

Anyway ordained priests held a Catholic mass in there and all the congregation people that went for the mass seemed to be fine.

 

Me on the other hand, I experienced a deeply sickly emotion and a great presence that came to the back of the church. It was a bolt out of the blue and caught me off guard, I’ve never had that experience at the mass.

 

It was akin to the kind of feeling of an overwhelming paranoia that may result from over doing things on a weekend of partying in my teens…

 

I'm not Baptized and feel I may have had this experience as I was, the odd one out.

 

I held it together and left. The day was quite a normal day apart from that and I don’t tend to have experiences like this as an adult. It caught me by surprised and was powerful and troubling… at the time.

 

I wonder have any of you had experiences like this? With unconsecrated items or settings particularly? 
 

And maybe what are your thoughts on what this might have been down to?

[NaturaNaturans]

Yeah, the whole idolotry thing seems to be an semitic and arab concept. I understand that they do not want to reduce the one almigthy to an idol, but as a reminder in life I think they are gold.

[NaturaNaturans]

Tacitus, germania:

 

The Germans do not think it in keeping with the divine majesty to confine gods within walls or to portray them in the likeness of any human countenance. Their holy places are woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to that hidden presence which is seen only by the eye of reverence. 

 

[Bhathen]

In a Hindu temple:

Quote

Kumbhabhishekam (Samprokshanam) is a ritual reverentially performed to re-energize the spiritual powers into the consecrated vigrahas. This process also nullifies any diminishment in Saanidhyam (power) due to unintended apacharas (errors). The scriptures ordain that the renewal process should occur every 12-years from the original day of consecration. This is performed through a religious process called Maha Kumbhabhishekam. 

 I got to witness the rituals of a Maha Kumbhabishek a few years back.

Initially the idols were removed from the inner sanctum, energy transferred to pots of water and kept covered in a  separate space.. At the end of the 4 days the whole temple was bathed in holy water and the idols were consecrated.

 

On the first day I was sitting a few feet away from a group of 8 or 9 priests. One of them was chanting mantras and the rest of them were continuously doing mudras in sync. During the entire time of this half hour ritual, the point between my eyebrows was moving like a tiny ball in all directions with a high frequency.

As soon as the priests stopped the ritual, the vibrations also stopped completely. 

 

It would be interesting to know why this occurred , what were the priests actually doing and why was that particular point affected. Maybe they were tuning into some kind of frequency or channelling some kind of energy into the pot of water in front of them.

Edited Sunday at 08:32 PM by Bhathen
edited some details

[Thrice Daily]

10 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

In a Hindu temple:

 I got to witness the rituals of a Maha Kumbhabishek a few years back.

Initially the idols were removed from the inner sanctum and kept covered up in a  separate space.. At the end of the 4 days the whole temple was bathed in holy water and the idols were consecrated.

 

On the first day I was sitting a few feet away from a group of 8 or 9 priests. One of them was chanting mantras and the rest of them were continuously doing mudras in sync. During the entire time of this half hour ritual, the point between my eyebrows was moving like a ping pong ball in all directions with a high frequency.

As soon as the priests stopped the ritual, the vibrations also stopped completely. 

 

It would be interesting to know why this occurred , what were the priests actually doing and why was that particular point affected. Maybe they were tuning into some kind of frequency or channelling some kind of energy into the pot of water in front of them.

Makes sense doesn’t it, how awesome 😎