Sanity Check Posted August 21 I've been thinking on whether the social hierarchy of christianity in the bible is sub optimal. A single leader or prophet attempting to nurture & guide large groups of people may not be the most efficient design. The best format would be individuals learning to nurture and guide themselves, making prophets and leaders (somewhat) obsolete. Walmart enjoyed some success cutting middle men from their supply chains. Perhaps organized religion can enjoy similar success by following a similar strategy. Believers cease listening to priest and prophet middle men. Individuals become their own priests and prophets. Perhaps this is the way God desired it from the beginning. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 21 (edited) Thats one of the schools of Gnosticism ; self gnosis , direct experience, no 'mediator' needed . Its also the path of Magick and a few other things . Even with the Baha'i religion ( which does have a prophet and acknowledges the previous prophets and does not want to cut out the middle man , as they believe in three tiers ; God, prophets and people ) but still they do not have priests or clergy , instead , sort of like what you suggest , each community comes together and elects 9 people to form a council to direct their affairs to replace priests and clergy ; the LSA ( Local Spiritual Assembly). In 'western culture' they are often a mix of various ethnic types , its very popular system in third world where it is similar to a tribal council . . Edited August 21 by Nungali 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrice Daily Posted October 27 Yeah @Nungali, I looked into that Baha'i religion, looked pretty sweet, a force for good. @Sanity Check, In modern times people are much more likely to encounter Christ themselves and then seek church and community later, once they make that choice. It certainly seems to be the case. Much more about choice and personal experience than coercion of a Church and societal pressure like it once was. There seems to be a resurgence happening at least in terms of folk wanting to return to Christian values. Not just family type folk either, but youngsters too. The next generation will always ebb in and out of morality. Things always seem to come full circle. As dark as things get there is always a return to the light. [so dust off the nunchucks and get back in the fight] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrice Daily Posted October 27 🧘 In the spirit of a sanity check, with Christianity, moving forwards. 🌳 Which elements would you keep? 🔥 And which elements would you throw away? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 24 On 10/27/2024 at 1:27 PM, Thrice Daily said: 🧘 In the spirit of a sanity check, with Christianity, moving forwards. 🌳 Which elements would you keep? 🔥 And which elements would you throw away? There is a story behind every element of christianity. Nothing is ever truly discarded. One way to honor those who came before us is to learn from their mistakes & improve upon the way they did things. This may be the path God desired to be walked. Although in practice it doesn't appear so simple. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 24 On 10/28/2024 at 10:27 AM, Thrice Daily said: 🧘 In the spirit of a sanity check, with Christianity, moving forwards. 🌳 Which elements would you keep? 🔥 And which elements would you throw away? The element that people are inherently born in sin and need some type of 'saving' ... especially when that involves the 'necessity ' of being 'saved ' through an 'organized religion' . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrice Daily Posted November 24 I think there should be more focus on gratitude, and that being the basis of prayer... Also the universe and creation itself should be held in more of a high regard. It doesn't have to be worship as such but it seems Christians largely ignore the actual creation miscategorising respect for it as somehow seeing it at odds with their faith... I think this is very sad. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 25 (edited) 8 hours ago, Nungali said: The element that people are inherently born in sin and need some type of 'saving' ... especially when that involves the 'necessity ' of being 'saved ' through an 'organized religion' . Sin might be defined in terms of bad decisions. To some unknown extent, we can be saved from sin through making better choices. To reduce the degree to which God saves us from ourselves. Edited November 25 by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 25 6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said: I think there should be more focus on gratitude, and that being the basis of prayer... Also the universe and creation itself should be held in more of a high regard. It doesn't have to be worship as such but it seems Christians largely ignore the actual creation miscategorising respect for it as somehow seeing it at odds with their faith... I think this is very sad. Gratitude definitely. Prayer is hard. The bible is a book written by prophets and kings. Inspired by God. Many christians have gotten it into their heads that they're better off not reading and not knowing what this book says. On some level reading a book inspired by God is terrifying. Deadlifting 600 pounds is a lighter weight than lifting the bible, reading & comprehending it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrice Daily Posted November 25 I don’t know if I agree. I think the Old Testament is a mish mash of many old stories and is (like all the other civilisations literature suggests) speaking about beings wishing creation that were mistaken as gods and not the actual creator of the universe and all of existence. To me it’s simple, if God is unsubstantiatable as is beyond all of existence and separate to it we have to take it on faith. the fact he materialised and started playing war games with people and wiping out entire communities I think is highly unlikely. I think the characters in the Old Testament are bad news. Not God itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 25 The Old Testament might seem random. But if read carefully, I think it defines the origins of evil. Conditions relating to free will. All of the fundamental questions a person might pose to christianity are answered in one form or another. Even topics like the problem of evil are addressed indirectly. In the Old Testament we see God attempting to do everything he can to override free will & force people to be moral. Going so far as to punish sons for the sins of their fathers across multiple generations / smiting entire cities. Motives and circumstances are not explicitly defined in this way. But the inconsistency of the practice could indicate there was no need for it to continue as whatever necessity it served had been fulfilled. God has never been about faith to me. It always seemed intuitive that God's existence might someday be proven with science. There were too many coincidences to think otherwise. Since I was a child, I thought of God as a fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrice Daily Posted November 25 But why would God literally tell people to kill other people makes no sense. I think it’s worth considering the various words that were replaced with the word God. looking at theHebrew words and then tracing back their origins. You will end up with the Sumerian tablets … Also as one example , The creator of the universe would never for expect blood sacrifices. I think science may find the existence of God. But I don’t think that is what the Old Testament in talking about . God is way too concerned with Human affairs. It doesn’t work like that I’m quite certain. There was a lot of confusion , I think Jesus was seeking to clear all of that up with a way more sensible and objective viewpoint of what God is imo 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 25 When archaeologists excavated garbage dumps of ancient rome. They were surprised to find many human remains mixed in with trash. In past eras the concept of human life having value wasn't as developed or fleshed out as it became in later eras. It might be inferred by how death was the punishment for breaking most rules. And how it was routine for disfigured or deformed children to be killed. Due to the world revolving around the concept of human life not necessarily having value. Wars, slavery, genocide were common. Everyone waged war upon everyone else. Its not a climate where pacifism or peace were known. Many were unable to produce or gather enough food to feed their children. Leading them to routinely sacrifice children to deity figures via infanticide. Blood sacrifice I'm not certain on. I know it was practiced by the point of it is something I'm not familiar with. To an extent past eras were the infancy of man. Then an adolescent period. Our current era is something like a young adult. God was present for the infancy and adolescent stages. The way a parent would be. Now that man is becoming more mature, God allows us to walk without constant adult supervision. It is possible many choose to skip the developmental stages of human history. They prefer to skip straight to the advanced era. To an extent what can be seen and known of God is limited by our own development. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25 16 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Sin might be defined in terms of bad decisions. I like this one ; " To sin against oneself is to deliberately ignore what you know to be true because it does not pander to your prejudices ." To some unknown extent, we can be saved from sin through making better choices. Most certainly . To reduce the degree to which God saves us from ourselves. Ummmm ..... anyway, I was talking about 'coming into this world 'pre-loaded ' with sin as a new born baby and needing Christ's redemption from that , in order to be saved , other wise you are lost eternal life . Load of BS IMO . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25 14 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Gratitude definitely. Prayer is hard. The bible is a book written by prophets and kings. Inspired by God. Many christians have gotten it into their heads that they're better off not reading and not knowing what this book says. On some level reading a book inspired by God is terrifying. Deadlifting 600 pounds is a lighter weight than lifting the bible, reading & comprehending it. Well ... I suppose 'inspired by' can mean a lot of things . I am sure the slaughtering crusaders felt 'inspired ' . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25 5 hours ago, Sanity Check said: When archaeologists excavated garbage dumps of ancient rome. They were surprised to find many human remains mixed in with trash. In past eras the concept of human life having value wasn't as developed or fleshed out as it became in later eras. It might be inferred by how death was the punishment for breaking most rules. And how it was routine for disfigured or deformed children to be killed. Due to the world revolving around the concept of human life not necessarily having value. Wars, slavery, genocide were common. Everyone waged war upon everyone else. Its not a climate where pacifism or peace were known. Many were unable to produce or gather enough food to feed their children. Leading them to routinely sacrifice children to deity figures via infanticide. Blood sacrifice I'm not certain on. I know it was practiced by the point of it is something I'm not familiar with. To an extent past eras were the infancy of man. Then an adolescent period. Our current era is something like a young adult. God was present for the infancy and adolescent stages. The way a parent would be. Now that man is becoming more mature, God allows us to walk without constant adult supervision. It is possible many choose to skip the developmental stages of human history. They prefer to skip straight to the advanced era. To an extent what can be seen and known of God is limited by our own development. I think we are at the stage of just breaking into youth ... and we have found Dad's guncupboard unlocked ! Oh what 'fun' we can have now ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 26 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Well ... I suppose 'inspired by' can mean a lot of things . I am sure the slaughtering crusaders felt 'inspired ' . Some say the US invasion of Iraq in 2002 was to perpetuate freedom and democracy. Others say it was about oil. Some said the crusades were about religion and liberating the holy land of Jerusalem. Others said they were about the ruling class & organizations like the knights templar amassing large quantities of wealth. Others say nearly all wars, are wars of the rich, fought by the poor. Unless we're talking about the servile wars, slave uprisings in rome. I guess it doesn't matter much which methodology people subscribe to. What is critical is whether some degree of consistency be maintained. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 26 4 hours ago, Nungali said: Ummmm ..... anyway, I was talking about 'coming into this world 'pre-loaded ' with sin as a new born baby and needing Christ's redemption from that , in order to be saved , other wise you are lost eternal life . Load of BS IMO . What does Christ's redemption mean though? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26 1 minute ago, Sanity Check said: What does Christ's redemption mean though? According to the church, the preacher , the Christian , or according to me ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Some say the US invasion of Iraq in 2002 was to perpetuate freedom and democracy. Others say it was about oil. Some said the crusades were about religion and liberating the holy land of Jerusalem. Others said they were about the ruling class & organizations like the knights templar amassing large quantities of wealth. Others say nearly all wars, are wars of the rich, fought by the poor. Unless we're talking about the servile wars, slave uprisings in rome. I guess it doesn't matter much which methodology people subscribe to. What is critical is whether some degree of consistency be maintained. How does that relate to people thinking they are inspired by God ? I thought you where going to say .... some thought, . the Iraq invasion was inspired by God . I also dont understand the point about methadology does not matter as long as consistency is maintained . If it is not the methodology that 'should remain consistent , then what should remain consistent ? . Edited November 26 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 26 6 minutes ago, Nungali said: According to the church, the preacher , the Christian , or according to me ? What do people think it means. Its such a heavily polarized topic, people don't think about it much. What does it mean and why does it have such a powerful impact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 26 4 minutes ago, Nungali said: How does that relate to people thinking they are inspired by God ? I thought you where going to say .... some thought, . the Iraq invasion was inspired by God . I also dont understand the point about mythology does not matter as long as consistancy is maintained . If it is not the methodology that 'should remain consistant , then what should remain consistant ? Most things have a marketing brochure attached to them. Then there is another side to them reflecting reality. Wars are always being marketed as one thing, but the reality can be different. What makes "wars inspired by God" reality, rather than marketing. This applies not only to christianity but also jihad and other religions having hierarchal classes of warriors who waged war. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26 3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: What do people think it means. All different stuff I suppose . Its such a heavily polarized topic, people don't think about it much. Many Christians do ... its an essential basic article of Christian faith . 3 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: What does it mean and why does it have such a powerful impact. It means you need to accept Christ as THE savior, only through him, and without that you will not be 'redeemed' . Some think that means 'go to hell' .... as they themselves have explained it to me . ... And urged me to do likewise ; accept Christ and be saved . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26 4 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Most things have a marketing brochure attached to them. Then there is another side to them reflecting reality. Wars are always being marketed as one thing, but the reality can be different. What makes "wars inspired by God" reality, rather than marketing. This applies not only to christianity but also jihad and other religions having hierarchal classes of warriors who waged war. I agree - thats' why I questioned the concept in the first pace . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted November 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nungali said: It means you need to accept Christ as THE savior, only through him, and without that you will not be 'redeemed' . Some think that means 'go to hell' .... as they themselves have explained it to me . ... And urged me to do likewise ; accept Christ and be saved . Bible history goes something like this. 1. God offers people wise counsel 2. People reject wise counsel and make poor choices 3. People beg God to save them from results of their poor choices 4. God saves them from their poor choices 5. People return to making poor choices once again 6. God saves them from their poor choices 7. People return to making poor choices 8. God saves them from their poor choices Think about how pointless that process is. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Those who make poor choices often do so making choices based on lies and inaccuracy. While those who make good choices base more on truth & fact. Love of truth & fact. Seeking truth and acquiring knowledge could be more integral to the christian faith than most realize. The path to redemption could be defined by making better choices, a process relying upon furthering truth and knowledge. It is possible a person who is a christian should have some of this reflected in how they live their life. It may not merely be faith in Christ. Over time they should learn, gather facts / knowledge and make better life choices as a result. In this way they might be redeemed. So I think anyways. Edited November 26 by Sanity Check 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
