thewheelofortune Posted August 24 Hello everyone, I'm new here i'm 25 been into meditation and esotericism for a couple of years now i actually started with taichi and mentak chia I know before you scream i fortunately did not follow up with his teachings, i'm looking to learn neidan properly i'm aware a lot of people have been experiencing negative effects due to mentak chia teachings I have been practicing semen retention periodically but i feel depleted and have to start the cycle each time its tiring Thats why i want to learn how to properly manage my energy i used to get frequently sick but since i found that practice my health been improving i feel like i'm hitting a plateau i was thinking of seeing a chinese doctor along with my practice and I recently found the videos of damo michell and i'm not sure what to think he sure has a lot of knowledge but i don't trust his character i also found authentic neigong seems like its a good foundation I have a question do i need to practice martial arts before getting into neigong the reason i'm asking is because i have a disability that impact my balance and i'm not sure if its adequate for my case Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- Posted August 28 Authentic neigong is worth doing. You don’t need to do any martial arts before starting it, and don’t need to worry about balance. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 28 On 24/08/2024 at 4:58 PM, thewheelofortune said: Hello everyone, I'm new here i'm 25 been into meditation and esotericism for a couple of years now i actually started with taichi and mentak chia I know before you scream i fortunately did not follow up with his teachings, i'm looking to learn neidan properly i'm aware a lot of people have been experiencing negative effects due to mentak chia teachings I have been practicing semen retention periodically but i feel depleted and have to start the cycle each time its tiring Thats why i want to learn how to properly manage my energy i used to get frequently sick but since i found that practice my health been improving i feel like i'm hitting a plateau i was thinking of seeing a chinese doctor along with my practice and I recently found the videos of damo michell and i'm not sure what to think he sure has a lot of knowledge but i don't trust his character i also found authentic neigong seems like its a good foundation I have a question do i need to practice martial arts before getting into neigong the reason i'm asking is because i have a disability that impact my balance and i'm not sure if its adequate for my case Thank you If you have a disability that affects your balance, you should not really be trying to practice any form of neigong in the short term at least You could perhaps discuss a bit more about the nature of the disability, before such advice is given, otherwise it'd be rather problematic without knowing whats actually going on Starting with Nathan Brines Yin Xian Fa would give you some excellent training in some of the foundational seated work for neidan, while you get a handle on whats going on with balance and how serious it is https://online.nathanbrine.com/courses/intro-to-taoist-alchemy Its important to understand neigong is not neidan. They are VERY different things 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted August 29 7 hours ago, Shadow_self said: They are VERY different things really? neigong is more martial it depends what you consider neigong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 29 3 hours ago, Antares said: really? neigong is more martial it depends what you consider neigong Yes. Neigong and Neidan methods i have been taught to build large volumes of qi for example are quite different The Neigong is more tangible in that regard, the Neidan is more ethereal, and places a far greater degree of emphasis on the mental aspect of training Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted August 29 1 hour ago, Shadow_self said: emphasis on the mental aspect of training what you mean by mental aspect of a training? If you have no foundation in neigong (xing ming training) it will deplete your yuan qi, so in both cases yuan qi must be replenished at the foundation stage. They are based on the same principles and woud not say they ARE VERY different things. From certain stage they will differ of course but both are based on internal qi cultivation. There might be a neigong which does not train yuan qi replenishment and this case one will get in trouble Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 29 5 minutes ago, Antares said: what you mean by mental aspect of a training? If you have no foundation in neigong (xing ming training) it will deplete your yuan qi, so in both cases yuan qi must be replenished at the foundation stage. They are based on the same principles and woud not say they ARE VERY different things. From certain stage they will differ of course but both are based on internal qi cultivation. There might be a neigong which does not train yuan qi replenishment and this case one will get in trouble Neigong is a catch all term to be honest. It can range from everything martial like Taiji/Bagua to the prepatory stages of Neidan What I am saying is Neidan becomes very distinct from Neigong. How you build Qi is one example, but I wont be getting into methods here As regards mental work. To progress in Neidan, there needs to be cataclysmic changes to the psychology. You cannot otherwise Meanwhile, I have seen Masters of Neigong who are deplorable humans. They may have a large degree of skill in energy manipulation, but never overcame the lower parts of their nature, and instead the excess Qi just fuelled it and amplified it further and further Some have ended up deceased as a byprodcut of such things.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted August 29 26 minutes ago, Shadow_self said: As regards mental work. To progress in Neidan, there needs to be cataclysmic changes to the psychology. You cannot otherwise But this concerns the "external" De what we talked about in other topic. Also it concerns heart - mind purification and work with 5 elements. There are 5 positive and 5 negative qualities. It is all about that. In neigong you may work with heart - mind and 5 elements as well if you want to make a progress. The other thing is that there are loads of low quality neigong systems which should not be referred to as neigong at all. Somebody just got methods and invented their own system calling it neigong. But as I said neigong is just more power oriented in application, I mean how to strengthen body and produce power from inside outside Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 29 20 minutes ago, Antares said: But this concerns the "external" De what we talked about in other topic. Also it concerns heart - mind purification and work with 5 elements. There are 5 positive and 5 negative qualities. It is all about that. In neigong you may work with heart - mind and 5 elements as well if you want to make a progress. The other thing is that there are loads of low quality neigong systems which should not be referred to as neigong at all. Somebody just got methods and invented their own system calling it neigong. But as I said neigong is just more power oriented in application, I mean how to strengthen body and produce power from inside outside Like I mentioned earlier, Neigong is a catch-all term. Neidan on the other hand is very specific Ive yet to see someone who's practicing Neigong exclusively, be able to discuss the details of Neidan at all Feel free to start another thread elsewhere on the topic if you wish, but lets not derail this one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Giles Posted August 29 On 24/08/2024 at 4:58 PM, thewheelofortune said: I recently found the videos of damo michell and i'm not sure what to think he sure has a lot of knowledge but i don't trust his character FWIW, I share your reservations. As a viable alternative, you might find Jim MacRitchie's (completely free) Eight Extraordinary Meridians Training Program to be a useful entry point into what seems to interest you. https://www.globalqiproject.com/eight-extraordinary-meridians-training-program/ If you're prepared to pay a fairly nominal sum, you could probably do a lot worse than trying out the first couple of methods of Ren Xue Yuan Gong (which starts to get seriously esoteric when it reaches methods 5 and 6). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted August 30 (edited) 22 hours ago, Shadow_self said: Like I mentioned earlier, Neigong is a catch-all term. Neidan on the other hand is very specific Best to choose the IMA neigong from authentic lineage and avoid weird things and people like this one (that's when somebody call it neigong just taking certain things from lineage and doing that pursuing their egoistic goals) Edited August 30 by Antares Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 30 1 hour ago, Antares said: Best to choose the IMA neigong from authentic lineage and avoid weird things and people like this one (that's when somebody call it neigong just taking certain things from lineage and doing that pursuing their egoistic goals) I prefer the term verifiable lineage (with a traceable history) to be honest. Ive seen the worth authentic thrown around so much these days, I tend to gloss over it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antares Posted August 30 7 minutes ago, Shadow_self said: I prefer the term verifiable lineage I disagree here. I used to train with teacher which lineage of taiji was verifiable (Cheng Man-Ch'ing) and also he taught neigong which lineage could be verified somehow, btw that was master from USA (master Ahn if you heard may be about him). But I would not say his neigong was authentic. It was quite rough and I would say harmful. I wasted 3 years of my life, money and my qi. Tai Chi form was not harmful but I am not sure where he picked up neigong. He claimed lineage is verifiable and sold it as authentic taiji (but it was tai chi ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted August 30 4 minutes ago, Antares said: I disagree here. I used to train with teacher which lineage of taiji was verifiable (Cheng Man-Ch'ing) and also he taught neigong which lineage could be verified somehow, btw that was master from USA (master Ahn if you heard may be about him). But I would not say his neigong was authentic. It was quite rough and I would say harmful. I wasted 3 years of my life, money and my qi. Tai Chi form was not harmful but I am not sure where he picked up neigong. He claimed lineage is verifiable and sold it as authentic taiji (but it was tai chi ) It would depend. There are plenty of people claiming their neigong to be authentic, yet I dont see it as such at all The reason I use the term verifiable is not just on the basis of history/lineage, but also on the basis of skill developed, skills transmitted to students, connection of the "internal body" benefits dsiplayed by the teacher themselves (And to a lesser degree, the students) Also id expect the teacher to be able to explain things in exceptional detail If it is passes all those tests, then id consider it verified as authentic/legitimate I've met a ton of people claiming to teach Yijinjing for example. I only know of two people who tick the above boxes, and are able to talk about it in a way that demonstrates they understand it fully (for example) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted September 1 On 24/08/2024 at 4:58 PM, thewheelofortune said: Hello everyone, I'm new here i'm 25 been into meditation and esotericism for a couple of years now i actually started with taichi and mentak chia I know before you scream i fortunately did not follow up with his teachings, i'm looking to learn neidan properly i'm aware a lot of people have been experiencing negative effects due to mentak chia teachings I have been practicing semen retention periodically but i feel depleted and have to start the cycle each time its tiring Thats why i want to learn how to properly manage my energy i used to get frequently sick but since i found that practice my health been improving i feel like i'm hitting a plateau i was thinking of seeing a chinese doctor along with my practice and I recently found the videos of damo michell and i'm not sure what to think he sure has a lot of knowledge but i don't trust his character i also found authentic neigong seems like its a good foundation I have a question do i need to practice martial arts before getting into neigong the reason i'm asking is because i have a disability that impact my balance and i'm not sure if its adequate for my case Thank you No you don’t need to do martial arts. I know what you mean about Damo but he has lots of published material and videos which could help you at this stage. Just practice for a while and then review it’s effect - then you can decide whether to carry on or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 1 On 8/24/2024 at 8:58 AM, thewheelofortune said: I have a question do i need to practice martial arts before getting into neigong the reason i'm asking is because i have a disability that impact my balance and i'm not sure if its adequate for my case Hi @thewheelofortune Welcome to TDB. You don't need to learn martial arts to get into neigong. Neigong is more like a prerequisite to martial arts. It help you to build up your internal strength. Perhaps you would like to concentrate on that. Just pay more attention to breathing, it is the key to your health in the future. Good luck! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted September 4 On 2024-08-29 at 6:08 PM, Giles said: FWIW, I share your reservations. As a viable alternative, you might find Jim MacRitchie's (completely free) Eight Extraordinary Meridians Training Program Jim MacRitchie: Based to some extent on Mantak Chias method? Some might have reservations about that too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Giles Posted September 4 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Forestgreen said: Jim MacRitchie: Based to some extent on Mantak Chias method? Some might have reservations about that too. My understanding is that Chia was his introduction to qigong but that they parted ways. From Jim's biography: Quote His initial Chi Kung (Qigong) teachers in the early ‘80’s were Master Mantak Chia and Gunther Weil. Since then he studied with, and has been exposed to, a wide range of teachers and styles. Jim began The Chi Kung / Qigong School in Boulder in 1983, and taught there until 2013. He created, and became Founding President of, the National Qigong Association USA in 1996, getting to know a large number of teachers and practitioners, and attended over a dozen international conferences in USA, Europe and China. Source: https://www.globalqiproject.com/discovering-chi-qi/ In any case, Jim made his method open-source, so anyone can examine it for themselves (for free) and decide whether or not it's safe and/or worth pursuing. Edited September 4 by Giles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted September 4 1 hour ago, Giles said: anyone can examine it for themselves (for free) and decide whether or not it's safe and/or worth pursuing. That is the hard part, isn't it. Separating the worth from the not-worth. In a world where teachers sell their method online, how can a beginner know how to separate the two? Every method have a champion. Every method have people who dislike it. "Lucky is (s)he who haveth a method". Proverbs, 120:37 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Giles Posted September 4 It is indeed the crux of the vast majority of the issues that are repeatedly aired on this forum. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted September 4 Yes, cannot argue with that. 😄 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted September 4 2 hours ago, Forestgreen said: Separating the worth from the not-worth. ...how can a beginner know how to separate the two? a stupid beginner cannot. which does not change anything. because he has no yuanfen to master the worth anyway, even if he stumbles on it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Forestgreen Posted September 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, stirling said: The practice IMHO is only ever a way "in". Any practice that leads to having the mind tranquil will do. Complicated practices are unnecessary. Find a practice that is actually no practice at all. In a neidan/neigong thread? For a beginner? Doesn't sound like advice relevant to the situation. Edited September 4 by Forestgreen Added stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
