Neurofeedback

[snowymountains]

Making this thread so that we continue here, instead of the psychedelics thread 🧵.

 

This is by no means "my" thread so feel free to ask new questions as the thread evolves.

 

Not having any background in neurofeedback, my main questions regarding neurofeedback research are

 

1. Why is it worse than eg CBT research standards - not against standards which other fields have, which often do have a higher level of standards.
2. Why the overall concern on its efficacy, it's a form of operant conditioning.

 

Also it has been linked to placebo, I'd want to question that, operant conditioning in general is not placebo, though a treatment with operant conditioning may be comparable to one based on placebo ( they can even be combined).

[snowymountains]

@Shadow_self , @Giles

[Shadow_self]

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

1. Why is it worse than eg CBT research standards - not against standards which other fields have, which often do have a higher level of standards.

 

 

For a start the research is shoddy because blinding is far easier achieved, yet routinley ignored. The effect is placebo, but its never acknowledged, except in the rigourous studies, and they are a few in a bath of poor ones

 

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

1. Why the overall concern on its efficacy, it's a form of operant conditioning.

 

Yes thats kind of what it is, but how exactly does that work?

 

see below

 

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Also it has been linked to placebo, I'd want to question that, operant conditioning in general is not placebo, though a treatment with operant conditioning may be comparable to one based on placebo ( they can even be combined).

 

Placebo effects induced by operant conditioning in the cases of neurofeedback. 

 

The mechanic in terms of psychopathology is related to interoception

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.545945/full

 

Quote

We present a reconsideration of operant conditioning through the co-emergence model of reinforcement, which is a neurophenomenological account of the interaction between cognition and interoception, and its consequences on behavior. The model suggests that during memory processing, the retrieval of autobiographical memory (including maladaptive cognition) is dependent upon its co-emerging interoceptive cues occurring at the encoding, consolidation and reconsolidation stages. Accordingly, “interoceptive reinforcement” during emotional distress is a common factor to all emotional disorders and a major cause for relapse. We propose that interoceptive desensitization has transdiagnostic benefits, readily achievable through the cultivation of equanimity during mindfulness training and can be integrated in cognitive and behavioral interventions to permit a transdiagnostic applicability. 

 

 

The problem is, they dont fully understand something that does go beyond the scientific spectrum

 

That is the nature of the mind, its "shape" how it is formed and reformed (this happens moment to moment)

 

Memory stores somatically, its not in the brain tissue, its in the entire body.

 

Its why it flashes before your eyes when you die. Its not the brain shutting off. Its everything thats been accumulated being reobserved as the senses seal, as no more new "data" can be gathered

 

The brain is simply acting as a step down transformoer to the wider  structure. Think of it a a sign the transformer is working. It filters experience, but the mind is elsewhere in the body.

 

Its why I mentioned the human mind is not quantitative, and the neuroscientific markers are not what they think they are

 

Rather, its strongest resonances are around the heart, though the other various things we carry are stored across multiple areas

 

Zifagong, or spontaneous movement is what it looks like when these things are resurfacing or being worked through, which in many ways "reshapes" the mind

 

I cant say too much about the mechanic here (its energetic) , but what I will say is the placebo effect is literally the mind working with itself to change it.

 

Its not an "imagined thing" its very real. And thats the point

 

When i say its placebo, I mean that in a good way. But its not the neurofeedback. So they have the mechanic confused

 

All thats doing is providing one way to train the mind to link whats happening in the body and mind (the whole thoughts feeling emotions etc) People arent seeing the source of their problems, they are seeing a marker of when it occurs and its the interoceptive cue thats the key. They learn to recognize the somatic feelings

 

See here:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718323723

 

Quote

Findings revealed that people with low interoceptive abilities show more difficulties in verbalizing their feelings and in decreasing the impact of emotions generated by negative experiences in daily life

 

When people cant verablize, regulate or manage their emotions? You basically get the vast majority of the DSM critera outside of the very serious stuff

 

But they wont explain it to you in this way.

 

The reason why is you begin to realise its not the neurofeedback at all causing the improvement. 

 

In fact its something else entirely

 

My problem is whats mentioned earlier, its the disempowerment and dependancy placed on external sources, when the reality is its self generated, but the "science" wants one to think its some external thing

 

When you think about that long list of other things I posted that boost placebo, this will make more sense given how people view "science" in an almost religious fashion in todays world

 

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

For a start the research is shoddy because blinding is far easier achieved, yet routinley ignored.

 

I'm not sure, if e.g. I go and do to a room and someone does neurofeedback to me, it will be obvious they're doing neurofeedback. It won't be blinded, any outcome will be affected by expectations.

Blind experiments are clearly preferable but they're not always possible.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Yes thats kind of what it is, but how exactly does that work?

 

To what granularity do you ask for, ultimately it's a question for neuroscience but operant conditioning has been shown to be a real effect by behaviouralists.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Memory stores somatically, its not in the brain tissue, its in the entire body.

 

Correct but while indeed the body remembers, "so does the mind" ( McNally  )

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I cant say too much about the mechanic here (its energetic) , but what I will say is the placebo effect is literally the mind working with itself to change it.

 

I don't believe it is energetic, as in no use of an energetic systems needs to be involved directly - placebo typically is induced with words when the client can focus on them. It is very strong, it literally shows the power the conscious mind can sometimes have over the body and the unconscious mind. Placebo has tremendous power, agreed.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

When i say its placebo, I mean that in a good way. But its not the neurofeedback. So they have the mechanic confused

I'd take a slightly different route, it's the operant conditioning, not the neurofeedback per se, the neurofeedback delivers operant conditioning.

Placebo is not the same, e.g. one difference is that results from operant conditioning tends to be much more long-lasting.

One can of course use placebo and then deliver operant conditioning. Also possible to induce placebo through operant conditioning. There can be an interplay between the two, combining them is very strong.

In the other thread you mentioned pain control. In pain control there is a mix of placebo first, then operant conditioning via imaginary dial.

So the two can be correlated but conceptually they are different.

 

That said the if neurofeedback can deliver operant conditioning with efficacy, then why not ?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

All thats doing is providing one way to train the mind to link whats happening in the body and mind (the whole thoughts feeling emotions etc) People arent seeing the source of their problems, they are seeing a marker of when it occurs and its the interoceptive cue thats the key. They learn to recognize the somatic feelings

 

See here:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718323723

 

 

When people cant verablize, regulate or manage their emotions? You basically get the vast majority of the DSM critera outside of the very serious stuff

 

All this is correct, some techniques are about leveraging the body-mind so that the body will affect the mind - eg when vocal cords are without muscle tone, then we cannot think, if eyes are completely relaxed, then we cannot visualise images and lots of others.

So sometimes the body is used to affect the mind.

That does not mean this is where the work stops.

 

I am not a fan of pathologising at all btw, someone who cannot verbalise or regulate their emotions may need 3-4 years of talk therapy with Person Centered, Gestalt, Psychodynamics or whatevs - this doesn't reduce the value from starting with CBT to reduce suffering from symptoms is, nor to still apply cognitive restructuring longer term if that is applicable.

 

When the symptoms go away, there's no pathology but there may still be work to be done.

 

Modalities that work with pathologies are very good at that, other modalities may be more suitable for other goals though.

Imo two different modalities are not enemies, they provide different points of view, different techniques and this is a good thing.

 

Pathologising is extremely problematic though when used in isolation and when it is overused.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

My problem is whats mentioned earlier, its the disempowerment and dependancy placed on external sources, when the reality is its self generated, but the "science" wants one to think its some external thing

 

When you think about that long list of other things I posted that boost placebo, this will make more sense given how people view "science" in an almost religious fashion in todays world

 

This is question of how psychoeducation around this should be done. Dependency is horrible but a therapist can do the psychoeducation as "you will (learn to) use the power of your mind" and give credit to the client for any progress, the therapist "just showed how to score like a coached, the client scored", they've learnt it, it's theirs and now, they own it - this is the common way to do it, e.g. in acceptance psychoeducation.

There's a lot of subtlety to this craft that may not appear in the RCTs/publications

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

The problem is, they dont fully understand something that does go beyond the scientific spectrum

 

I agree to this, I don't find it linked to the above directly (so not specific to neurofeedback, operant conditioning, placebo) but I'll share my point of view with this.

 

I feel ( cannot prove nor disprove ) there's a part of us that is from the "source" and we are also receivers of dreams with symbolism behind which hide archetypes. Jung was spot on, no matter how modern psychologists want to pretend he never existed, I believe the source of these things to be ...nature ( believe, cannot prove nor disprove ).

This is if you like an anti-placebo in that it's something coming from the opposite direction.

 

Now in practical terms what does this mean ? it means if e.g. someone cannot express their emotions and cannot speak, there is a chance that they are not living according to the needs of their organism in C. Rogers lingo.

 

In that sense it is energetics, someone's vital energy not being directed where their organism wants it directed.

Personally I don't have a clue on the somatisation of the energy routes ( e.g. meridians ), though there may be a linkage. Tbh I haven't managed to find something on somatisations of these energetics.

 

This is the real risk in a symptoms only approach, but I view this this as a misuse of a symptoms only approach, which of course is more likely to happen when training is only on approaches that start from a pathology. But it's how the wider system is designed socially and financially that are to be blamed for this, some approaches that start from pathologies themselves are excellent.

Edited August 26 by snowymountains

[Giles]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

@Shadow_self , @Giles

 

Thanks for starting this thread. 🙏🏻

 

Hopefully, I'll learn quite a lot.🤞🏻

 

For anyone who stumbles across it, here's the link to where I derailed the Psychedelics thread in response to @Shadow_self's introduction of EEGs into the mix.

 

 

I'm going to start by hypothesising that there are two broad categories of neurobiofeedback, although they do have some overlap:

• Medical/psychological/psychiatric
• Spiritual/psychotherapeutic

Personally, I'm not particularly interested in the mainstream psychopathologising medical/psychological/psychiatric model because I consider it to be fatally flawed due mainly, but not solely, to its commercially motivated vested interests.

 

What interests me is the Maxwell Cade/Anna Wise "lineage" of spiritual/psychotherapeutic neurofeedback, which evolved from an investigation of healthy individuals.

 

I recommend that anyone interested in this branch of investigation starts with Wise's Awakening the Mind: A Guide to Harnessing the Power of Your Brainwaves.
 

 

The other two introductory texts I recommend are Cade & Coxhead's The Awakened Mind: Biofeedback and the Development of Higher States of Awareness and Wise's The High-Performance Mind: Mastering Brainwaves for Insight, Healing, and Creativity (both available to borrow from the Internet Archive Library: https://archive.org/details/texts).

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by Giles

[snowymountains]

@Giles I wouldn't put psychotherapy in the second bracket, it's in both. It's really broad field, it includes approaches that start from pathology and tend to be supported by lots of RCTs, to rather spiritual approaches like Jungian or Psychosynthesis, to other stuff that is also not linked to pathology like narrative therapy.

 

Some of it is "evidence-based" , some isn't, some is spiritual, some isn't. Psychotherapy has huge breadth.

[thelerner]

2 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Thanks for starting this thread. 🙏🏻

 

Hopefully, I'll learn quite a lot.🤞🏻

 

For anyone who stumbles across it, here's the link to where I derailed the Pychodelics thread in response to @Shadow_self's introduction of EEGs into the mix.

What interests me is the Maxwell Cade/Anna Wise "lineage" of spiritual/psychotherapeutic neurofeedback, which evolved from an investigation of healthy individuals.

 

I recommend that anyone interested in this branch of investigation starts with Wise's.The High-Performance Mind: Mastering Brainwaves for Insight, Healing, and Creativity.
 

The other two introductory texts I recommend are Cade & Coxhead's The Awakened Mind: Biofeedback and the Development of Higher States of Awareness and Wise's Awakening the Mind: A Guide to Harnessing the Power of Your Brainwaves (both available to borrow from the Internet Archive Library: https://archive.org/details/texts).

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a fan of Anna Wise.  She was an early pioneer in brain wave research.  One who studied monks and faith healers in a scientific mode.  Sadly she's passed away.  The High Performance Mind series has a group of guided meditations that walk experientially through the different states w/ guided meditations.  I found them worthwhile.  

[Giles]

16 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I'm a fan of Anna Wise.  She was an early pioneer in brain wave research.  One who studied monks and faith healers in a scientific mode.  Sadly she's passed away.  The High Performance Mind series has a group of guided meditations that walk experientially through the different states w/ guided meditations.  I found them worthwhile.  

 

I've edited that post because I originally posted Wise's books in the wrong order.

 

I intended to suggest that people start with the second book that she published, Awakening the Mind.

 

 

Her untimely death is indeed tragic, not least because the torch that she carried seems to have been extinguished to all intents and purposes.

 

The High Performance Mind CDs could be pretty useful and the tracks are available for download quite cheaply from Amazon.

 

Her second book has some detailed meditation scripts that may similarly be of some use to those who cannot afford to purchase a Mind Mirror EEG biofeedback device.

 

Edited August 26 by Giles

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

I'm not sure, if e.g. I go and do to a room and someone does neurofeedback to me, it will be obvious they're doing neurofeedback. It won't be blinded, any outcome will be affected by expectations.

 

Blind experiments are clearly preferable but they're not always possible.

 

But there are plenty of double blind RCT's to find online fo NF for yourself to see. You understand this yes?

 

Quote

To what granularity do you ask for, ultimately it's a question for neuroscience but operant conditioning has been shown to be a real effect by behaviouralists.

 

I dont believe its  a question for neurosceince. In fact neuroscience is in terms of explanatory power, the field that has the least impact (though its often touted at the most) The mind is not reducable to brain blips. As mentioned earlier its just showing the  transformation  and transfer of information

 

Where neuroscience can really shine (though it rarely does this) is in larger holisitc studies it can be used as 1 of multiple sources of data to triangulate.

 

This is what the real benefit should be. But if you know anything about research in these fields, they are rarely so thorough, and usually isolate data points and make exaggerate inferential leaps based on these

 

Quote

Correct but while indeed the body remembers, "so does the mind" ( McNally  )

 

Well thats kind of the point. The bigger question is how does it remember, and even better forget (or let go of) See below for some insight

 

Quote

 

I don't believe it is energetic, as in no use of an energetic systems needs to be involved directly - placebo typically is induced with words when the client can focus on them. It is very strong, it literally shows the power the conscious mind can sometimes have over the body and the unconscious mind.

 

What you are saying here is the sensory input is registered by the mind,

 

But it is done so through an energetic medium. Again the iimages below will help

 

You understand your brain needs energy to take this data in and run it through the transformer that allows us to experience it in a way congruent with the plane of existence we are in

 

You also need to know what the mind is, on some level to get where im coming from

 

Genuine question, but do you know what it is, practically speaking?

 

Quote

Placebo has tremendous power, agreed.

 

Absolutely

 

Quote

I'd take a slightly different route, it's the operant conditioning, not the neurofeedback per se, the neurofeedback delivers operant conditioning.

Placebo is not the same, e.g. one difference is that results from operant conditioning tends to be much more long-lasting.

One can of course use placebo and then deliver operant conditioning. Also possible to induce placebo through operant conditioning. There can be an interplay between the two, combining them is very strong.

In the other thread you mentioned pain control. In pain control there is a mix of placebo first, then operant conditioning via imaginary dial.

So the two can be correlated but conceptually they are different.

 

That said the if neurofeedback can deliver operant conditioning with efficacy, then why not ?

 

The issue is that the placebo self generates belief, the belief creates a shift in the mind (its not imagined) and the resultant shift is repeated over and over via the operant conditioning (the person feels good, they learn to repeat, its a reward per se)

 

Thats why the chart i posted, you see various things that increase peoples faith in the treatment, and thats what powers placebo really. Placebo wont work unless you believe it will

 

You should understand, theres a literal structure to the mind, its a thing thats visible to people of a certain level of development. Its not at all theoretical. Its just a layer more subtle to what a normal humans eyes are attuned to

 

Quote

 

All this is correct, some techniques are about leveraging the body-mind so that the body will affect the mind - eg when vocal cords are without muscle tone, then we cannot think, if eyes are completely relaxed, then we cannot visualise images and lots of others.

So sometimes the body is used to affect the mind.

That does not mean this is where the work stops.

 

But theres a mising component here.

 

The body doesnt effect the mind, and the mind doesnt effect the body.

 

The body is manipulated to effect the energetic makeup, and that transfers up to mind. Its also possible to work top down, but thats beyond certain people

 

Its basically why exercise helps with depression so much,

 

If you think about a light and a lightswitch, thats a great comparison. Its not the switch that affects the light, its the energetic medium which connects to two

 

In a similar way, the energetics of the body (Qi in Chinese though) is the bridge between form (body) and formless (mind)

 

Quote

I am not a fan of pathologising at all btw, someone who cannot verbalise or regulate their emotions may need 3-4 years of talk therapy with Person Centered, Gestalt, Psychodynamics or whatevs - this doesn't reduce the value from starting with CBT to reduce suffering from symptoms is, nor to still apply cognitive restructuring longer term if that is applicable.

 

When the symptoms go away, there's no pathology but there may still be work to be done.

 

Modalities that work with pathologies are very good at that, other modalities may be more suitable for other goals though.

Imo two different modalities are not enemies, they provide different points of view, different techniques and this is a good thing.

 

Pathologising is extremely problematic though when used in isolation and when it is overused.

 

Often,, therapy isnt needed to be honest. Its a change of lifestyle, enviornment and perspective (the latter often conditioned by the former, though not exclusively) 

 

Mental illnesses (the non psychotic variety) are largely a societal problem due to these things. Its not well addressed, because people never change their enviornment, or their lifestyle

 

As an extreme example, you'd be hard pressed to send someone into a monastery and have them come out a year later with the same issues they went in with

 

Therapy etc, becomes extremely  useful when someone cannot (or refuses to)  manipulate the variables above.

 

But I do not think it should be first port of call in mild to moderate cases as it does sometimes create the  unfortunate perception that something is a disease, and therefore the powelessness arises (though it shouldn't, its more often it does) 

 

I cant tell you the amount of times ive hear the "I have a chemical imbalance" line....which quite frankly saddens me

 

 

Quote

 

This is question of how psychoeducation around this should be done. Dependency is horrible but a therapist can do the psychoeducation as "you will (learn to) use the power of your mind" and give credit to the client for any progress, the therapist "just showed how to score like a coached, the client scored", they've learnt it, it's theirs and now, they own it - this is the common way to do it, e.g. in acceptance psychoeducation.

There's a lot of subtlety to this craft that may not appear in the RCTs/publications

 

I agree with you.

 

Quote

 

I agree to this, I don't find it linked to the above directly (so not specific to neurofeedback, operant conditioning, placebo) but I'll share my point of view with this.

 

I feel ( cannot prove nor disprove ) there's a part of us that is from the "source" and we are also receivers of dreams with symbolism behind which hide archetypes. Jung was spot on, no matter how modern psychologists want to pretend he never existed, I believe the source of these things to be ...nature ( believe, cannot prove nor disprove ).

This is if you like an anti-placebo in that it's something coming from the opposite direction.

 

Now in practical terms what does this mean ? it means if e.g. someone cannot express their emotions and cannot speak, there is a chance that they are not living according to the needs of their organism in C. Rogers lingo.

 

In that sense it is energetics, someone's vital energy not being directed where their organism wants it directed.

Personally I don't have a clue on the somatisation of the energy routes ( e.g. meridians ), though there may be a linkage. Tbh I haven't managed to find something on somatisations of these energetics.

 

Ther meridians as basically an energetic extension of mind in the body.

 

They have a physical component, and energetic component and a spiritual one.

 

 

Qi is the medium via which they interact. Thats the basis on which acupuncture works

 

 

Dreams are not exactly as Jung described them, but he did get some of it correct indeed. The simplest way to describe them are reflections of the two aspects of the soul (The Hun and Po in Daoism) 

 

The discussion of "source" is well beyond the scope of this  

 

But what you should take from the above, is the mind is malleable due to that energetic bridge  thats what changes it and likewise, thats how the mind can translate down to the body in the pain situation we spoke earlier

 

The energetic compenent is the force that initiates change under the right conditions

 

Quote

This is the real risk in a symptoms only approach, but I view this this as a misuse of a symptoms only approach, which of course is more likely to happen when training is only on approaches that start from a pathology. But it's how the wider system is designed socially and financially that are to be blamed for this, some approaches that start from pathologies themselves are excellent.

 

Well its not so much the symptoms only approach thats a problem for me, its the disempowerment of patients and the insistence on reductive materialism that puts people into an endless cycle of pills, and often something that never fixes the issue, but at best might treat symptoms

 

At worst, well, thats an entirely different thread.

 

Just to give the above some context. This is what it looks like when the "meridians" and whatnot are being cleared

 

If you really want to have a serious discussion about this, suspend your disbelief for around 15 minutes and watch those videos. It shoudlnt be too hard, given one of the demonstrations took place at a University Hospital in Bratislava in front of a professor and his class

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by Shadow_self

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

But there are plenty of double blind RCT's to find online fo NF for yourself to see. You understand this yes?

 

indeed, I see that, they say it's double blind and the reviewers agreed to this statement - still if someone knows the treatment they receive, it's not double blind by definition, I don't know what to say but in other communities, people usually call these just RCTs exactly because the subject can understand what treatment they receive.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But it is done so through an energetic medium. Again the iimages below will help

 

It's done via the nervous system

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You also need to know what the mind is, on some level to get where im coming from

 

Genuine question, but do you know what it is, practically speaking?

 

The mind is in the brain, 100%, all our thoughts are in the brain and it's very tied to the body, e.g. thought activity can be measured from the body via EMG, for a long time now.

If instead you refer to our pure awareness then I'm happy to discuss any scenario and science may never answer this.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But theres a mising component here.

 

The body doesnt effect the mind, and the mind doesnt effect the body.

 

The body is manipulated to effect the energetic makeup, and that transfers up to mind. Its also possible to work top down, but thats beyond certain people

 

Its basically why exercise helps with depression so much,

 

On a first level approximation the connection is via the nervous system, this in turns activates glands, glands emit hormones.

It is possible to control, albeit indirectly, the switch between SNS/PNS and it's a skill that's built over time.

On second level approximation it's more complex and of course not everything is known yet.

 

Exercise helps, a lot, but its effects do not need an energetic makeup model, e.g. exercise increases endorphins, decreases cortisol etc.

 

If you want to aggregate these in an energetic system that is also fine, but there's no need to use an energy language to describe this.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Often,, therapy isnt needed to be honest. Its a change of lifestyle, enviornment and perspective (the latter often conditioned by the former, though not exclusively) 

 

Mental illnesses (the non psychotic variety) are largely a societal problem due to these things. Its not well addressed, because people never change their enviornment, or their lifestyle

 

As an extreme example, you'd be hard pressed to send someone into a monastery and have them come out a year later with the same issues they went in with

 

Therapy etc, becomes extremely  useful when someone cannot (or refuses to)  manipulate the variables above.

 

But I do not think it should be first port of call in mild to moderate cases as it does sometimes create the  unfortunate perception that something is a disease, and therefore the powelessness arises (though it shouldn't, its more often it does) 

 

I cant tell you the amount of times ive hear the "I have a chemical imbalance" line....which quite frankly saddens me

 

50% of women in their 40s-60s in the UK were prescribed antidepressants, 90% of people have a disorder - 10% of that at clinical levels. Therapy is badly needed.

 

The reason they don't change their environment is exactly because they need to change first, to then change the environment. Therapy is not something abstract and detached, successful therapy will mean the client enacts real changes in real life.

 

Going to a monastery may also make things worse, it all depends on why it's done. Perma-avoidance is not uncommon.

 

The "I have a chemical imbalance", "I have PTSD" etc are mostly from misinformation from the web. Unless they have a clinical diagnosis that is, which means at the moment of diagnosis they had PTSD, not that PTSD is a permanent part of their functioning. 

 

Btw a psychotherapist will almost never communicate a diagnosis (it can happen but under specific circumstances), so I sincerely doubt the "I have .." come from someone's therapist. It's the exact opposite, clients are empowered.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But what you should take from the above, is the mind is malleable due to that energetic bridge  thats what changes it and likewise, thats how the mind can translate down to the body in the pain situation we spoke earlier

 

The energetic compenent is the force that initiates change under the right conditions

 

Blocking pain is fully explained by Gate theory+placebo+operant conditioning, there's no need to use an energy model.

I can block pain entirely, to the extent I've tested it, and know others who also can, it's used daily throughout the world for people who have chronic pain.

 

I'm sure that there's stuff in energetics which are not conventionally explainable right now, as in more research will be needed to understand the complex underlying mechanics and till then an emergent model via energetics may be the best way to describe them. Pain is not one of them though.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Just to give the above some context. This is what it looks like when the "meridians" and whatnot are being cleared

 

If you really want to have a serious discussion about this, suspend your disbelief for around 15 minutes and watch those videos. It shoudlnt be too hard, given one of the demonstrations took place at a University Hospital in Bratislava in front of a professor and his class

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, I have no clue what he is doing nor what outcome he achieved.

I'm happy to discuss the existence a "healing presence" and its impact on people, I'm positive to that, but I'm not sure that's what I see in this video.

 

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The discussion of "source" is well beyond the scope of this  

 

I'd say the source may be the only thing that science may never fundamentally answer.

Just like it will never be proven if conscience is there as an emergent property of matter ( reductionist view ) or instead our heads are "conscience receivers" from "nature"/the source.

All topics in the thread do not need this question answered of course.

Edited August 26 by snowymountains

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

indeed, I see that, they say it's double blind and the reviewers agreed to this statement - still if someone knows the treatment they receive, it's not double blind by definition, I don't know what to say but in other communities, people usually call these just RCTs exactly because the subject can understand what treatment they receive.

 

The point would be they dont know if they are getting treatment or not, because they dont know what group they are in.

 

Many of the reviews are done on children

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30291-2/abstract

 

This one is actually triple blinded, and done on adults

 

Quote

Participants were assigned equally to one of the three interventions through a computerised minimisation randomisation procedure stratified by sex, age, and baseline symptom severity of ADHD. Participants were masked as to whether they were receiving neurofeedback or sham neurofeedback, but those receiving meta-cognitive therapy were aware of their treatment. Clinical assessors (ie, those assessing outcomes) and research staff who did the neurofeedback training were masked to participants' randomisation status only for neurofeedback and sham neurofeedback.

 

Heres another one in people with TBI double blinded

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2022.979723/full

 

Quote

As the allocation procedure was performed by the manufacturer of the NF device, assignment to group was concealed from the participants, care providers and outcome assessors. Since movements or muscle contractions give rise to easily recognizable EEG patterns, such artifacts recorded from the actual EEG were integrated into the sham-NF intervention. In this way, neither the patients nor the investigators were able to detect group affiliation. After study end the allocation was disclosed by the manufacturer without any knowledge of the measurements or analyses.

 

The important point here, is every time these are double blinded, the same result shows up

 

But if you wanted to blind it even further, you could do so in various ways.

 

Quote

It's done via the nervous system

 

You arent wrong or right.

 

You're both  

 

The physical manifestation of the energetic system is, broadly speaking, related to the nervous system and fascial network

 

But its important, actually critical to understand that this is only 1 layer.

 

There are far more than this, and thought the focal point of your conciousness may be limited to this, its far from the whole picture

 

According to my understanding, depending on the tradition either 1.39% or 0.925%

 

Quote

The mind is in the brain, 100%, all our thoughts are in the brain and it's very tied to the body, e.g. thought activity can be measured from the body via EMG, for a long time now.

If instead you refer to our pure awareness then I'm happy to discuss any scenario and science may never answer this.

 

Unfortunately it isnt im afraid. Because the picture is much greater than this

 

You brain is not a container of your mind, it is a transformer and transmitter of information coming in, like a step down transformer that filters data and keeps the bandwith of the sense faculties

 

You mind is  somatically located around your heart, which is the  strongest magnetic field in the body.

 

Very broadly speaking, your mind isn the acquired layers of information, data taken in from the senses filtered down from the brain, distorted by the emotions and desires, which are linked to the magnetic fields of the chest and lower abdomen respectively

 

What your brain does is the other stuff, cognition etc. but mind is not stored there.

 

This is why people with no brain activity have out of body experiences etc, and why when you disrupt certain parts of the brian the mind is impacted, like a traffic jam or car crash

 

But actually how it is impacted is not from the brain, its the transmission to heart field.

 

When people get TBI, they dont lose their memories, the piece of machinery responsible for retriving them is malfunctioning  

 

Science just hasnt caught up. It doesnt have the methods. But its done a great job of convincing people it knows

 

if you ever wondered why the major religions talk about the heart so much, hopefully you now have a better understanding why

 

This is why daoists call it the heart -mind, and not the brain-mind

 

It also plays a MAJOR part in the "life flashing before your eyes" at the point of death or an NDE

 

Or, if one engages with esoteric work, once you begin working this middle field, you will experientually understand that the mind is there. You wont need any theoretical explanation, you'll encounter this directly

 

Quote

On a first level approximation the connection is via the nervous system, this in turns activates glands, glands emit hormones.

It is possible to control, albeit indirectly, the switch between SNS/PNS and it's a skill that's built over time.

On second level approximation it's more complex and of course not everything is known yet.

 

If I was to break down these models for you, and show you some of what Ive seen and know, id highly imagine you yourself would need some therapy , but we'll save that for later

 

Id doubt you understand the full capacity of the hormonal system (ive never seen it discussed publicly) but suffice to say, bizarre is putting it mildly

 

Im sorry, but thats sadly not something for public discussion except to say it defies biology, and you can throw everything you know about ageing out the window while you're at it  

 

Quote

Exercise helps, a lot, but its effects do not need an energetic makeup model, e.g. exercise increases endorphins, decreases cortisol etc.

 

If you want to aggregate these in an energetic system that is also fine, but there's no need to use an energy language to describe this.

 

Unfortunately, given I have a more comprehensive understanding of things I do have to frame it that way

 

Messages need to travel for those signals to go. Its energetic how they do so

 

Quote

 

50% of women in their 40s-60s in the UK were prescribed antidepressants, 90% of people have a disorder - 10% of that at clinical levels. Therapy is badly needed.

 

The reason they don't change their environment is exactly because they need to change first, to then change the environment. Therapy is not something abstract and detached, successful therapy will mean the client enacts real changes in real life.

 

Going to a monastery may also make things worse, it all depends on why it's done. Perma-avoidance is not uncommon.

 

But was that the case 50 years ago? or even 30. I think you'll find not.

 

Also its more likely than not the antidepressants thrown at them upon first arrival are a factor that is in some cases sustaining the depression (of course in tandem with the envionrment)

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0

 

Quote

The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration.

 

Not to mention theres a whole raft of lawsuits coming in regards their use and permanent sexual dysfunction

 

Im sure if I asked you to find me those same numbers in a cohort of nuns for example. I think you'll struggle badly

 

Now to get to the wider issue of antidepressant use

 

 

 

Yes, its practically doubled over a 10 year period.  Therapy isnt fixing this, I am sorry.

 

The NHS has some of the most  publicly available therapeutic interventions given it trains PWPs and so forth

 

But its not exactly working.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/capr.12249#:~:text=Aim%2FPurpose,be as high as 43%.

 

Quote

 NHS Digital (2016) reported the dropout rate in IAPT to be as high as 43%

 

You can give as much therapy as you want at people, if the external conditions arent changing, a vast majority will not build enough resiliance to weather the storm

 

If you are comparing  whether giving them therapy will build there resiliance up vs removing the causative factors, I think you'll find the latter to be far more beneficial and provide a far greater chance the therapy will  then bolster them once said factors have been lifted or at least lightened

 

Flip that around, you'll see increased cohorts dropping out because despite the therapy the causative factors are still there.

 

Unless they build the resiliance, they wont stick at it.

 

This is why i said therapy should not be the first port of call if the external factors can be first changed in any way

 

 

Quote

The "I have a chemical imbalance", "I have PTSD" etc are mostly from misinformation from the web. Unless they have a clinical diagnosis that is, which means at the moment of diagnosis they had PTSD, not that PTSD is a permanent part of their functioning. 

 

Now here im sad to say you are  being dishonest. I'm sorry, but if you've worked in this field you know that isnt true

 

This is not misinformation nor internet jargon.

 

This is a common line touted by doctors, psychiatrists and clinical psychologists. Ive worked around enough of this and heard it enough times.

 

People didnt pluck this out of the sky. Its a marketing line for pills thats been pushed for a long time now

 

Most of them do have a diagnosis, and Im wondering based on that comment if you realise just how overdiagnosed our society is as a whole?

 

This was one of the reasons I left my post, when working on a project related to pediatric ADHD, so ive seen exactly what they do, and its  sadly disgusting (and to children no less)

 

Quote

Btw a psychotherapist will almost never communicate a diagnosis (it can happen but under specific circumstances), so I sincerely doubt the "I have .." come from someone's therapist. It's the exact opposite, clients are empowered.

 

Well, for a start I do not think a psychotherapist shouldt be making a diagnosis for psychiatric conditions, they ae given the diagnosis by a clinician (unless they are also a psychologist or psychiatrist). The generally dont get the training required

 

But ive observed this  communication of diagnosis happening multiple times.

 

I dont know what rooms you've been sitting in, but in the ones I have, well, they were very clear on making it clear people were "ill" and needed to learn to live with that illlness

 

Quote

Blocking pain is fully explained by Gate theory+placebo+operant conditioning, there's no need to use an energy model.

I can block pain entirely, to the extent I've tested it, and know others who also can, it's used daily throughout the world for people who have chronic pain.

 

Nobody said you couldnt, Im saying it appears to lack a full understanding of the energetics involved. Which isnt so much your issue as much as an issue of the scientific view of things 

 

Try explaining how messages go from the brain to the body via the spine without energy.

 

Unfortunately, thats impossible

 

Your entire nervous system is  an electrical circut, and your fascial network is both piezoelectric and a semiconductor

 

I revert you back to my earlier comment. For all you see, theres so much more you arent seeing

 

Some of us however can see feel and interact with that  

 

Quote

I'm sure that there's stuff in energetics which are not conventionally explainable right now, as in more research will be needed to understand the complex underlying mechanics and till then an emergent model via energetics may be the best way to describe them. Pain is not one of them though.

 

Its fully explainable believe it or not , But it  does require a mind thats willing to move beyond reductive materialism

 

Of course, given society has been conditioned that way for a long time now, thats beyong the scope of most people

 

But the frameworks exist. I would not speak on things i havent personally verified as true

 

Also, if one is willing to put in the work, can be empirically verified

 

Quote

Honestly, and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, I have no clue what he is doing nor what outcome he achieved.

I'm happy to discuss the existence a "healing presence" and its impact on people, I'm positive to that, but I'm not sure that's what I see in this video.

 

Id happily take you to see one of his students, and personally watch you flip flopping around (as I have seen others)  

 

This is very much as real as a slap in the face

 

Much of what you are seeing there is the portions of the energetic "memory" being purged from the body and mind. As mentioned everything is stored in the body,

 

Outcomes would depend on who exactly he was treating there.

 

I know of energy treatments that have ranged from curing mental illness to curing cancer (im not joking when I say that)

 

This kind of thing works down to the level of the cells (and beyond) and Im sympathetic that it may be beyond your understanding, but it is not beyond mine.

 

If you want to understand something about it ask a question and ill respond. Or not, that'll be at the behest of how much you'd like to know

 

Quote

I'd say the source may be the only thing that science may never fundamentally answer.

Just like it will never be proven if conscience is there as an emergent property of matter ( reductionist view ) or instead our heads are "conscience receivers" from "nature"/the source.

 

I suggest you become a participant in your own experiment and you'll get your own answer ( I already did)  

 

Edited August 26 by Shadow_self

[snowymountains]

17 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The point would be they dont know if they are getting treatment or not, because they dont know what group they are in.

 

Many of the reviews are done on children

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30291-2/abstract

 

This one is actually triple blinded, and done on adults

 

 

Heres another one in people with TBI double blinded

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2022.979723/full

 

 

The important point here, is every time these are double blinded, the same result shows up

 

But if you wanted to blind it even further, you could do so in various ways.

 

ok I see how it works, then in neurofeedback it looks like indeed it's possible to blind.

 

18 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Very broadly speaking, your mind isn the acquired layers of information, data taken in from the senses filtered down from the brain, distorted by the emotions and desires, which are linked to the magnetic fields of the chest and lower abdomen respectively

 

What your brain does is the other stuff, cognition etc. but mind is not stored there.

 

This is why people with no brain activity have out of body experiences etc, and why when you disrupt certain parts of the brian the mind is impacted, like a traffic jam or car crash

 

But actually how it is impacted is not from the brain, its the transmission to heart field.

 

When people get TBI, they dont lose their memories, the piece of machinery responsible for retriving them is malfunctioning  

 

Science just hasnt caught up. It doesnt have the methods. But its done a great job of convincing people it knows

 

if you ever wondered why the major religions talk about the heart so much, hopefully you now have a better understanding why

 

This is why daoists call it the heart -mind, and not the brain-mind

 

It also plays a MAJOR part in the "life flashing before your eyes" at the point of death or an NDE

 

Or, if one engages with esoteric work, once you begin working this middle field, you will experientually understand that the mind is there. You wont need any theoretical explanation, you'll encounter this directly

 

define mind then, by mind mind I was referring to thoughts, this is brain activity.
 

I'm fine with locating our "core" to the heard, not the thought center though, because of a spiritual experience I had. 

 

it's interesting you mention memory in the context of NDEs, before we discuss this, do you refer to memory of the NDE ( during which the brain had no activity/clinical death ) ?

 

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

If I was to break down these models for you, and show you some of what Ive seen and know, id highly imagine you yourself would need some therapy , but we'll save that for later

 

Id doubt you understand the full capacity of the hormonal system (ive never seen it discussed publicly) but suffice to say, bizarre is putting it mildly

 

Im sorry, but thats sadly not something for public discussion except to say it defies biology, and you can throw everything you know about ageing out the window while you're at it  

 

 

Unfortunately, given I have a more comprehensive understanding of things I do have to frame it that way

 

Messages need to travel for those signals to go. Its energetic how they do so

 

Our difference is you view energetics as a system of it's own, with layers distinct to the brain-nervous system-glands-hormones dynamic system. I view energetics as an effort to approximate that, which has gotten a lot things right including things not yet proven.

The gut's role was also unproven 30+ years ago and there it is today.

Why do you believe energetics have components that are undiscoverable in principle ( not due to current limitations, pace of research, direction etc ) ?

 

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

But was that the case 50 years ago? or even 30. I think you'll find not.

 

It wasn't but 50 years ago people also grew up in a different environment, it's both the current environment and the environment where developmental changes happen.

I expect it to be worse in +20 years btw, hope I'm wrong.

 

32 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Unless they build the resiliance, they wont stick at it.

 

This is why i said therapy should not be the first port of call if the external factors can be first changed in any way

 

An important part of therapy is exactly resilience building. 

But it's a loop, personality structure and behavioural patterns often prevents change, therapy changes these and this enacts change in the external factors.

This is a personal view, indeed a lot of the factors are societal. But this means they're difficult to change, therapy helps with shedding introjections and breaking some of the societal factors, feel free to disagree.

 

Agreed on medication, disagree with state of NHS re mental healthcare, it's way worse than you believe it is. Prescription straight away is not uncommon, short term therapies are also not always delivered by well trained staff. This is not because shorter term CBT is bad (it's not), it's because the real motivation is cost cutting and delivery often is of low quality.

 

39 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Now here im sad to say you are  being dishonest. I'm sorry, but if you've worked in this field you know that isnt true

 

This is not misinformation nor internet jargon.

 

This is a common line touted by doctors, psychiatrists and clinical psychologists. Ive worked around enough of this and heard it enough times.

 

People didnt pluck this out of the sky. Its a marketing line for pills thats been pushed for a long time now

 

Most of them do have a diagnosis, and Im wondering based on that comment if you realise just how overdiagnosed our society is as a whole?

 

This was one of the reasons I left my post, when working on a project related to pediatric ADHD, so ive seen exactly what they do, and its  sadly disgusting (and to children no less)

 

 

Well, for a start I do not think a psychotherapist shouldt be making a diagnosis for psychiatric conditions, they ae given the diagnosis by a clinician (unless they are also a psychologist or psychiatrist). The generally dont get the training required

 

But ive observed this  communication of diagnosis happening multiple times.

 

I dont know what rooms you've been sitting in, but in the ones I have, well, they were very clear on making it clear people were "ill" and needed to learn to live with that illlness

 

I'm actually being very honest, as you said yourself, psychotherapists don't diagnose, it's also not as common to refer someone to a clinic to get a diagnosis by a clinical psychologist (it's rarer that a psychiatrist does the diagnosis, they also often lack the proper training, but of course they prescribe based on the diagnosis of the clinical psychologist).

In therapy someone could go all the way without diagnosis and not even set goals in some modalities.

 

If someone does go to a clinic to get a diagnosis, then of course, they do learn the diagnosis.

Have you observed it as a common occurrence (not 1/2 offs) outside this context? - if so, then agreed it's horrible and I can understand why you left.

 

We were referring to different things here, I was referring to that someone coming to psychotherapy won't hear "you have PTSD", which is true, also nobody would refer more than once to a psychiatrist who screws up the therapeutic progress like that.

 

Overall society in the west doesn't have good mental health overall, there is tendency to prefer medicalisation by healthcare systems both because they're cheaper than therapy and because pharma is happy with this.

 

Of course meds are also needed for some people and there are good psychiatrists out there that do put the effort to find what is right for their patients.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Nobody said you couldnt, Im saying it appears to lack a full understanding of the energetics involved. Which isnt so much your issue as much as an issue of the scientific view of things 

 

Try explaining how messages go from the brain to the body via the spine without energy.

 

Unfortunately, thats impossible

 

Your entire nervous system is  an electrical circut, and your fascial network is both piezoelectric and a semiconductor

 

I revert you back to my earlier comment. For all you see, theres so much more you arent seeing

 

Some of us however can see feel and interact with that  

 

 

Its fully explainable believe it or not , But it  does require a mind thats willing to move beyond reductive materialism

 

Of course, given society has been conditioned that way for a long time now, thats beyong the scope of most people

 

But the frameworks exist. I would not speak on things i havent personally verified as true

 

Also, if one is willing to put in the work, can be empirically verified

 

If someone can shut pain without energetics, then energetics are not needed to shut it down.

As it can all be also explained without energetics, then energetics are not a needed concept for shutting down pain.

 

So what you're saying is that the nervous system cannot function without an accompanying energetics model ? I'm not a neurologist to answer how the signal goes down but do you really believe that? 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I know of energy treatments that have ranged from curing mental illness to curing cancer (im not joking when I say that)

 

This kind of thing works down to the level of the cells (and beyond) and Im sympathetic that it may be beyond your understanding, but it is not beyond mine.

 

If you want to understand something about it ask a question and ill respond. Or not, that'll be at the behest of how much you'd like to know

 

For psychological healing I know people who are like that, there are some famous ones too, e.g. Milton Erikson.

 

For cancer look, I'll tell you, I have mixed feelings on believing it, a friend who is an oncologist has witnessed what you describe and their words were like "this should not be possible" and I trust their judgement but it's a bit on the tail of the events I'd believe.

So let's say I'm rather open but not a believer either.

It was not a Daoist who did the healing though, nor did they practice energetics of any sort. In all honesty, from what I've heard at least, the person who did the healing said "God did this, not me".

 

For psychological healing I know the mechanics down to a good level of granularity.

I'm interested in hearing about cancer.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I suggest you become a participant in your own experiment and you'll get your own answer ( I already did)  

 

 

I have, see comment above on the heart, I know my answer but I'll never be able to prove it to anyone.

[Shadow_self]

10 hours ago, snowymountains said:

define mind then, by mind mind I was referring to thoughts, this is brain activity.
 

I'm fine with locating our "core" to the heard, not the thought center though, because of a spiritual experience I had. 

 

it's interesting you mention memory in the context of NDEs, before we discuss this, do you refer to memory of the NDE ( during which the brain had no activity/clinical death ) ?

 

Have a think about it, what are your "thoughts" firstly

 

Id define the acquired mind very  loosely as the fluctuating, ever changing "lens" through which we experience reality. Its shaped, distored and biased by our emotions, desires, prior experience etc (im being extremely undetailed here otherwise id have to write a small book)

 

It is by far the most unstable part of us. Changes every time we have a thought  

 

As for NDE's yes people can have memories of them,  but actually what I was talking about was what happens at the moment of death the "life review" where the memory bank is run through despite the cessation of brain activity

 

Theres a very specific reason this happens, and its linked to the brain and senses  

 

Quote

 

Our difference is you view energetics as a system of it's own, with layers distinct to the brain-nervous system-glands-hormones dynamic system. I view energetics as an effort to approximate that, which has gotten a lot things right including things not yet proven.

The gut's role was also unproven 30+ years ago and there it is today.

Why do you believe energetics have components that are undiscoverable in principle ( not due to current limitations, pace of research, direction etc ) ?

 

Quite the opposite in fact. Its not so much a separate thing. If that were the case it wouldnt be accessible by the body or the mind

 

They arent undiscoverable. I could show you how to interact with certain aspects of the energy system within a day. Its really not that hard once you know the mechanics

 

The reason it eludes standard protocols is that, well its not that it does, rather what you see if the effect. You basically just get the tip of the iceberg (if that makes sense)

 

Let me give you an example of this (lets use the terms electricity and magnetism for simplicity, though its more complex than that)

 

So if you look back at the video from earlier, whats happening here, it seems hes just waving his hands around  and whatnot.

 

However, whats happening is, hes using his hands to interact with the "electromagnetic stuff" in her body.

 

He uses the hands because if you look at the concentration of nerve endings in the body, and how much of the sensory/ motor cortex is dedicated to it you notice a skewed balance in favour of the hands, and mouth.  Its not so surprising then, when you see that two main methods of practice in spiritual traditions are mantra and mudra

 

Where there is electricity, there's magnetism ( thats why they use the hands:  more nerves = more electricity = more magnetism)

 

The more of the electromagnetic substance you have built up, the stronger the influence will be. 

 

Eventually the magnetism and electricity accumulate and pressurize so much, they can extend beyond the body, and thats when the really bizarre stuff begins

 

Stuff like this

 

 

I can personally verify this type of thing, but i do not want to talk about my own experiences in public

 

Whats happening physically is also not nearly as "supernatural" as one would think, it just requires an understanding of whats going on
 

However, to return to out undetectable point. Consider the kidneys. So we know them as an organ right?

 

Well the reality would be its not just an organ,  behind that, there its also an entire field of energy associated, and  behind that, actually theres a light

 

It all depends on how where the focal point of your awareness is, and whether you are able to expand that (Recall what I said earlier about the sensory bandwidth) 

 

You are free not to believe me of course, but as youve probably already realised, I've no reason to be dishonest

 

Quote

 

It wasn't but 50 years ago people also grew up in a different environment, it's both the current environment and the environment where developmental changes happen.

I expect it to be worse in +20 years btw, hope I'm wrong.

 

 

Exactly we agree, and I too see the same bleak outlook for the future sadly

 

Quote

 

An important part of therapy is exactly resilience building. 

But it's a loop, personality structure and behavioural patterns often prevents change, therapy changes these and this enacts change in the external factors.

This is a personal view, indeed a lot of the factors are societal. But this means they're difficult to change, therapy helps with shedding introjections and breaking some of the societal factors, feel free to disagree.

 

 

I dont disagree at all in fact. I do strongly feel that western society is fuelling much of the issues. This same frequency and distribution of issues isnt nearly as prevalent elswhere

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_antidepressant_consumption

 

South Korea is the exception, though im sure you may understand why  so, not surprising

 

Quote

Agreed on medication, disagree with state of NHS re mental healthcare, it's way worse than you believe it is. Prescription straight away is not uncommon, short term therapies are also not always delivered by well trained staff. This is not because shorter term CBT is bad (it's not), it's because the real motivation is cost cutting and delivery often is of low quality.

 

I am talking on a global scale however.

 

The availability of frontline CBT is a good thing, but your point about the staff delivering it is also correct.

 

So we arent misaligned on that. I agree with your analyiss of the motivation too

 

This is bordering on politics and public spend however, so probably for a different place  

 

Quote

 

I'm actually being very honest, as you said yourself, psychotherapists don't diagnose, it's also not as common to refer someone to a clinic to get a diagnosis by a clinical psychologist (it's rarer that a psychiatrist does the diagnosis, they also often lack the proper training, but of course they prescribe based on the diagnosis of the clinical psychologist).

In therapy someone could go all the way without diagnosis and not even set goals in some modalities.

 

If someone does go to a clinic to get a diagnosis, then of course, they do learn the diagnosis.

Have you observed it as a common occurrence (not 1/2 offs) outside this context? - if so, then agreed it's horrible and I can understand why you left.

 

Yes i have.

 

I've seen it be the case where in certain regions there was no clinical psychologist whatsoever, instead a psychiatrist did the diagnosis, then threw a bunch of medication at children, and left them 3-6 months between appointments with no support. Only to get a 40 minute appointment, and told to return again in 3-6 months for same

 

Ill leave it to your own imagination to think about what this could lead to

 

Quote

We were referring to different things here, I was referring to that someone coming to psychotherapy won't hear "you have PTSD", which is true, also nobody would refer more than once to a psychiatrist who screws up the therapeutic progress like that.

 

Overall society in the west doesn't have good mental health overall, there is tendency to prefer medicalisation by healthcare systems both because they're cheaper than therapy and because pharma is happy with this.

 

Agreed 100% they should not hear that. But ive been exposed  to it.

 

Ive also seen good therapists, though, they are normally private and behind a "paywall" if you would (unfortunately)

 

Also 100% in alignment with you on the state of the west and the status quo

 

Quote

Of course meds are also needed for some people and there are good psychiatrists out there that do put the effort to find what is right for their patients.

 

There are of course certain people who gain benefit from medications, the best psychiatrists ive seen are super cautious around it until its a point where they need it.

 

And they are very careful about how they approach it. I commend them for their efforts

 

Most of these same folk ive encountered are also acutely aware of the antidepressant issues

 

Quote

 

If someone can shut pain without energetics, then energetics are not needed to shut it down.

As it can all be also explained without energetics, then energetics are not a needed concept for shutting down pain.

 

So what you're saying is that the nervous system cannot function without an accompanying energetics model ? I'm not a neurologist to answer how the signal goes down but do you really believe that? 

 

 

See my point earlier about the icerberg and the visible portion vs what you currently cannot percieve  

 

Quote

For psychological healing I know people who are like that, there are some famous ones too, e.g. Milton Erikson.

 

For cancer look, I'll tell you, I have mixed feelings on believing it, a friend who is an oncologist has witnessed what you describe and their words were like "this should not be possible" and I trust their judgement but it's a bit on the tail of the events I'd believe.

So let's say I'm rather open but not a believer either.

It was not a Daoist who did the healing though, nor did they practice energetics of any sort. In all honesty, from what I've heard at least, the person who did the healing said "God did this, not me".

 

Theres not just one modality  

 

Quote

I'm interested in hearing about cancer.

 

That would require a private discussion  

 

Quote

 

I have, see comment above on the heart, I know my answer but I'll never be able to prove it to anyone.

 

I dont need proof personally  

[snowymountains]

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

Have a think about it, what are your "thoughts" firstly

 You know, this topic can end up a very long discussion 😁the two most common definitions/points of view are from neuroscience or from behaviouralism/physiology ( which uses the body-mind connection ). One may well add a ton of philosophers on top of that. So the point of view depends what you ask for, this merits its own thread.

 

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

Id define the acquired mind very  loosely as the fluctuating, ever changing "lens" through which we experience reality. Its shaped, distored and biased by our emotions, desires, prior experience etc (im being extremely undetailed here otherwise id have to write a small book)

 

It is by far the most unstable part of us. Changes every time we have a thought  

It does, but so does our physiology, thought-activity can be detected using EMG.

Dropping the baseline tension of our muscles, particularly the vocal ones stops verbal thoughts, there is an ideomotor linkage between the two. This actually is something that's applied therapeutically to people who suffer from psychosis, voices stop when they lower the baseline tension from their vocal cords.

 

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

As for NDE's yes people can have memories of them,  but actually what I was talking about was what happens at the moment of death the "life review" where the memory bank is run through despite the cessation of brain activity

 

Theres a very specific reason this happens, and its linked to the brain and senses  

 

Please expand, this is very interesting, I don't have a good answer to this personally. I haven't had an NDE myself but I'm aware of what you say through first-hand accounts of other people who did see the "life review".

 

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

They arent undiscoverable. I could show you how to interact with certain aspects of the energy system within a day. Its really not that hard once you know the mechanics

 

The reason it eludes standard protocols is that, well its not that it does, rather what you see if the effect. You basically just get the tip of the iceberg (if that makes sense)

 

Let me give you an example of this (lets use the terms electricity and magnetism for simplicity, though its more complex than that)

 

So if you look back at the video from earlier, whats happening here, it seems hes just waving his hands around  and whatnot.

 

However, whats happening is, hes using his hands to interact with the "electromagnetic stuff" in her body.

 

He uses the hands because if you look at the concentration of nerve endings in the body, and how much of the sensory/ motor cortex is dedicated to it you notice a skewed balance in favour of the hands, and mouth.  Its not so surprising then, when you see that two main methods of practice in spiritual traditions are mantra and mudra

 

Where there is electricity, there's magnetism ( thats why they use the hands:  more nerves = more electricity = more magnetism)

 

The more of the electromagnetic substance you have built up, the stronger the influence will be. 

 

Eventually the magnetism and electricity accumulate and pressurize so much, they can extend beyond the body, and thats when the really bizarre stuff begins

 

Stuff like this

 

 

I can personally verify this type of thing, but i do not want to talk about my own experiences in public

 

Whats happening physically is also not nearly as "supernatural" as one would think, it just requires an understanding of whats going on
 

However, to return to out undetectable point. Consider the kidneys. So we know them as an organ right?

 

Well the reality would be its not just an organ,  behind that, there its also an entire field of energy associated, and  behind that, actually theres a light

 

It all depends on how where the focal point of your awareness is, and whether you are able to expand that (Recall what I said earlier about the sensory bandwidth) 

 

You are free not to believe me of course, but as youve probably already realised, I've no reason to be dishonest

 

Ok, so if I understand correctly, you attribute to electromagnetic activity that is innate in the body, you say we're just not mindful of this activity and someone can become mindful and also control it. Do I understand your statement correctly?

 

I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd need to see it myself to believe someone can control the activity to the extent they can light fires.

Edit: I decided to share something, albeit I'll keep details out of public discussion. I am familiar with it personally to an extent, something related to electromagnetic activity does occur with statistical significance when I'm in a certain psychological state.

I also know it comes from me because I can use the conscious mind to pause unconscious mind activity as well ( there exist both evidence based and yet-to-be-evidence-based techniques for that ) and the activity does stop.

Not at lighting fires level but fully observable, also by others.

 

Incidentally I have plans to explore more into this the coming year.

My personal experience with MCO is that I do feel "something" when I do it, that something does feel like electricity but what is not clear is if it actually is an electric current. For sure drawing attention to the right places though can generate sensations similar to an electric current.

 

So you're saying effectively there are simple ways to become mindful of this activity - please go ahead, I'm interested in hearing more on these practices.

I'd assume it's a practice that does have differences to the Buddhist "mindfulness of the body" to emphasise more the energetics parts.

 

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

See my point earlier about the icerberg and the visible portion vs what you currently cannot percieve  

 

 

Theres not just one modality  

 

Indeed more than ways for everything, the reason I mentioned is that if we take that case at face value, it indicates for the person who did this, it was not his conscious mind doing it, he attributes to other forces, and since it was done through him, this implies unconscious forces ( and hinting at transcendental parts of the unconscious that act as receivers ).

So for that case there was no mindfulness of this, no coming to awareness, it was below the tip of the iceberg.

 

There's a lot of depth in this, whether someone should integrate what they can into consciousness, or surrender consciousness to some unconscious forces. Specifically for archetypes that is not the "simple" personal unconscious.

it's a philosophically different point of view, it's also what led to the split between Hillman/archetypal analysis and mainstream Jungians.

 

But you say these can come to consciousness, they don't need to remain unconscious, so interested in hearing more on this.

 

On 27/08/2024 at 1:13 PM, Shadow_self said:

That would require a private discussion  

let's keep a tab, I may PM you in the coming days, if that's ok with you.

Edited August 28 by snowymountains

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 You know, this topic can end up a very long discussion 😁the two most common definitions/points of view are from neuroscience or from behaviouralism/physiology ( which uses the body-mind connection ). One may well add a ton of philosophers on top of that. So the point of view depends what you ask for, this merits its own thread.

 

I dont think its very complex at all to be honest. Though i say that having been in states of "no thought"

 

Try considering what you personally think your own thoughts are (forget the others) 

 

Contemplate it for a while, and see what you come up with

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

It does, but so does our physiology, thought-activity can be detected using EMG.

Dropping the baseline tension of our muscles, particularly the vocal ones stops verbal thoughts, there is an ideomotor linkage between the two. This actually is something that's applied therapeutically to people who suffer from psychosis, voices stop when they lower the baseline tension from their vocal cords.

 

Right, but what exactly is that EMG is picking up? Electrical activity right? 

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Please expand, this is very interesting, I don't have a good answer to this personally. I haven't had an NDE myself but I'm aware of what you say through first-hand accounts of other people who did see the "life review".

 

Sure, when the senses seal off, theres no more input and as awareness folds inward upon itself, your mind start to review the accumulated data. It is unable to gather new information, as its tools of accumulation are no longer functional

 

That" tunnel of light " isnt external, its internal.

 

The light is part of the central channel and coming from the middle dan tien,  where as I mentioned earlier the mind is linked to (around the heart)

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Ok, so if I understand correctly, you attribute to electromagnetic activity that is innate in the body, you say we're just not mindful of this activity and someone can become mindful and also control it. Do I understand your statement correctly?

 

Becoming aware of and  gaining some degree of governance over it are only part of the practice

 

You also need to learn to be able to generate increasing amounts of it, which is where the real fun begins

 

Thats the basis of neigong training. 

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I wouldn't rule it out, though I'd need to see it myself to believe someone can control the activity to the extent they can light fires.

 

Sure, just try to find a decent lineage that teaches the Yijinjing and if you get the real thing, qi emission isnt nearly that difficult to encounter as one might think

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Edit: I decided to share something, albeit I'll keep details out of public discussion. I am familiar with it personally to an extent, something related to electromagnetic activity does occur with statistical significance when I'm in a certain psychological state.

I also know it comes from me because I can use the conscious mind to pause unconscious mind activity as well ( there exist both evidence based and yet-to-be-evidence-based techniques for that ) and the activity does stop.

Not at lighting fires level but fully observable, also by others.

 

Electromagnetic activity is occuring all the time  

 

It gets weird when you can tangibly affect other people

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Incidentally I have plans to explore more into this the coming year.

My personal experience with MCO is that I do feel "something" when I do it, that something does feel like electricity but what is not clear is if it actually is an electric current. For sure drawing attention to the right places though can generate sensations similar to an electric current.

 

So you're saying effectively there are simple ways to become mindful of this activity - please go ahead, I'm interested in hearing more on these practices.

I'd assume it's a practice that does have differences to the Buddhist "mindfulness of the body" to emphasise more the energetics parts.

 

There is a lot of baggage around the term MCO. Its a minefield

 

If you open a thread elsewhere, that could be worth discussing  theres a few members on here I believe know quite  a bit about it

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Indeed more than ways for everything, the reason I mentioned is that if we take that case at face value, it indicates for the person who did this, it was not his conscious mind doing it, he attributes to other forces, and since it was done through him, this implies unconscious forces ( and hinting at transcendental parts of the unconscious that act as receivers ).

So for that case there was no mindfulness of this, no coming to awareness, it was below the tip of the iceberg.

 

There's a lot of depth in this, whether someone should integrate what they can into consciousness, or surrender consciousness to some unconscious forces. Specifically for archetypes that is not the "simple" personal unconscious.

it's a philosophically different point of view, it's also what led to the split between Hillman/archetypal analysis and mainstream Jungians.

 

You'd be amazed at what happens when the acquired mind and intention steps out of the way and makes way for something far greater to come through  

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

But you say these can come to consciousness, they don't need to remain unconscious, so interested in hearing more on this.

 

Hmm, interesting discussion, but I personally see it as stripping away the acquired mind, which allows things to come through

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

let's keep a tab, I may PM you in the coming days, if that's ok with you.

 

Certainly 

[Giles]

On 26/08/2024 at 5:58 PM, Shadow_self said:

Just to give the above some context. This is what it looks like when the "meridians" and whatnot are being cleared

 

If you really want to have a serious discussion about this, suspend your disbelief for around 15 minutes and watch those videos. It shoudlnt be too hard, given one of the demonstrations took place at a University Hospital in Bratislava in front of a professor and his class

 

 

 

Well...

 

This thread's gone seriously off topic at warp speed... 🤣

 

However, some of it's certainly pretty interesting. 👍🏻

 

That video led me to this one, which i found even more interesting:

 

 

So, thanks for the derail. 🙏🏻

 

[snowymountains]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I dont think its very complex at all to be honest. Though i say that having been in states of "no thought"

 

Try considering what you personally think your own thoughts are (forget the others) 

 

Contemplate it for a while, and see what you come up with

 

for me thoughts are either internal verbal communication or internal imagery.

No-thought can certainly be achieved and actually there are even evidence based protocols for that, which are not seen a lot though as they require a lot of commitment.

 

10 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Right, but what exactly is that EMG is picking up? Electrical activity right? 

Correct - from the body.

 

11 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Sure, when the senses seal off, theres no more input and as awareness folds inward upon itself, your mind start to review the accumulated data. It is unable to gather new information, as its tools of accumulation are no longer functional

 

That" tunnel of light " isnt external, its internal.

 

It's definitely internal. It is imagery though, so according my definition of thought above it still needs the ability to think.

According to these folks, there was EEG activity after the heart stops JNDS_40-1 3pp (2022).indd (virginia.edu) , if their finding is accurate, this means should still be brain activity ( though they do of course say it's one case hard to generalise )

 

15 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The light is part of the central channel and coming from the middle dan tien,  where as I mentioned earlier the mind is linked to (around the heart)

 

To which energetic system do you refer to. Central channels are from Tibetan systems ( maybe others too ), middle dan tien is a concept in Daoist practices. I am not aware of a system that unifies the two.

 

17 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Electromagnetic activity is occuring all the time  

 

It gets weird when you can tangibly affect other people

 

It's weird and it's all unconscious for me, though I do recognise I am in the said psychological state and know what might happen through mindfulness of emotions/emotional affect, I have no bodily affect mindfulness for it. For me it's electrical equipment, it's weird to change rooms and see the effects change rooms.

 

19 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

There is a lot of baggage around the term MCO. Its a minefield

 

If you open a thread elsewhere, that could be worth discussing  theres a few members on here I believe know quite  a bit about it

I'll give a pass on that thread because tbh MCO is so disconnected from my regular practices that I do not practice it. I don't see a point, I'm sure there is a point for other paths, that work with energetics but I don't work with energetics and it seems pointless to just circulate something for the sake of doing it ( though in other practices I understand there may be reasons to do it ).

 

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Becoming aware of and  gaining some degree of governance over it are only part of the practice

 

You also need to learn to be able to generate increasing amounts of it, which is where the real fun begins

 

Thats the basis of neigong training. 

 

I'll look at energetics from an acupressure point of view actually, my goal is not to do something with it but gain sort of "mindfulness of energetics"

 

23 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

You'd be amazed at what happens when the acquired mind and intention steps out of the way and makes way for something far greater to come through  

 

 

Hmm, interesting discussion, but I personally see it as stripping away the acquired mind, which allows things to come through

 

That's how I see it as well, didn't say which of the two points of view I personally choose (for myself that is) in my previous post 

I think it's so vast that it's unintegratable and one may as well let "it" run his life at some points. it's a certain version of what's called "living the symbolic life".

Imo this is the big gap in spiritual paths and even structured therapy goals, sometimes "it" just needs to take over the flow of events.

 

27 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Certainly 

 

Deal 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

Well...

 

This thread's gone seriously off topic at warp speed... 🤣

 

 

You're right, I apoligze. Im trying my best to respond but it seems its just driving it further off topic

 

This will be my last response in long form. 

 

Whatever topics are of interest to you both, feel free to make new threads and ill elaborate there, but I think it'll be best to stop this long series of posts (its already started in another thread too)

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

for me thoughts are either internal verbal communication or internal imagery.

 

In other words, manifestations

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

No-thought can certainly be achieved and actually there are even evidence based protocols for that, which are not seen a lot though as they require a lot of commitment.

 

 

Its not so much the non thought thats hard. Its the paring away of things that cause excess thought that people struggle with  

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

Correct - from the body.

 

Yes, but its only picking up a portion of the bigger picture. The more subtle aspects (closer to the casual source) remain undetected.

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's definitely internal. It is imagery though, so according my definition of thought above it still needs the ability to think.

According to these folks, there was EEG activity after the heart stops JNDS_40-1 3pp (2022).indd (virginia.edu) , if their finding is accurate, this means should still be brain activity ( though they do of course say it's one case hard to generalise )

 

The sequence of events leading up to it is of little importance in terms of physiological markers.

 

Its not "brain" activity so much as awareness interacting with the brain (Theres a hint here) Mind is not awareness either

 

I think ive said this so many times at this stage, but the brain acts a step down transformer for conciousness (theres a hint here for the perceptive, but not something ill elaborate on)

 

When it is no longer sent outward via the senses to collect data, then the data analysis starts (life review of the mind) But this is after death, not before or during (the NDE is just a close call really)

 

This is where the more hidden aspects of meditative practice comes into play. High level work with karma and altering the cycle of transmigration, if ones trained to that level

 

The imagery isnt what it is, the imagery is a manifestation of what "it is" (see my above comment on thoughts)

 

Unfortunately what it is, is a little off limits for discussion im afraid  

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

To which energetic system do you refer to. Central channels are from Tibetan systems ( maybe others too ), middle dan tien is a concept in Daoist practices. I am not aware of a system that unifies the two.

 

The central channel is the same thing in all traditions really

 

All traditions speak of the importance of the heart, they just dont talk about it in the way I have

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

It's weird and it's all unconscious for me, though I do recognise I am in the said psychological state and know what might happen through mindfulness of emotions/emotional affect, I have no bodily affect mindfulness for it. For me it's electrical equipment, it's weird to change rooms and see the effects change rooms.

 

I'll give a pass on that thread because tbh MCO is so disconnected from my regular practices that I do not practice it. I don't see a point, I'm sure there is a point for other paths, that work with energetics but I don't work with energetics and it seems pointless to just circulate something for the sake of doing it ( though in other practices I understand there may be reasons to do it ).

 

Its definately not for the sake of it, and you do not intentionally do it. Its more a series of causes and conditions put in place to give rise to a specfic result. Alchemically speaking, it works with the Jing

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

I'll look at energetics from an acupressure point of view actually, my goal is not to do something with it but gain sort of "mindfulness of energetics"

 

Just have a read of this,

 

That'll break it down in as much detail as you need to gain a fairly decent level of engagement with the topic

 

https://www.google.ie/books/edition/A_Comprehensive_Guide_to_Daoist_Nei_Gong/4mpnDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

[Giles]

23 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You're right, I apoligze. Im trying my best to respond but it seems its just driving it further off topic

 

 

No need to apologise.

 

I actually stated that:

 

On 28/08/2024 at 3:36 PM, Giles said:

some of it's certainly pretty interesting. 👍🏻

 

That video led me to this one, which i found even more interesting:

 

 

So, thanks for the derail. 🙏🏻

 

 

[Giles]

On 26/08/2024 at 4:34 PM, snowymountains said:

@Giles I wouldn't put psychotherapy in the second bracket, it's in both. It's really broad field, it includes approaches that start from pathology and tend to be supported by lots of RCTs, to rather spiritual approaches like Jungian or Psychosynthesis, to other stuff that is also not linked to pathology like narrative therapy.

 

Some of it is "evidence-based" , some isn't, some is spiritual, some isn't. Psychotherapy has huge breadth.

 

 

The term psychotherapy can certainly applied very broadly and most people are even unable to distinguish between psychotherapy, psychology and psychiatry, let alone the different approaches that all get lumped together under the heading of psychotherapy.

 

However, as that's also off-topic and as I'm hoping to get this thread back on track, I'm just acknowledging your post (which I missed at the time, possibly due to the somewhat frenetic off-topic energy), without rising to this particular bait.

 

[Giles]

☯️

 

Edited September 17 by Giles

[Sahaja]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:47 AM, Giles said:

 

No need to apologise.

 

I actually stated that:

 

 

Why qi gong a joke Video uses some interesting historical terms but in the end doesn’t say very much nor does he answer his own questions. . I agree there is a lot of qigong that is about waving the arms and feeling a buzz on the hands or skin that will do little more than relax you or for some who get no exercise will help with improved circulation. However, there are other  approaches that are a lot more work and that can be incredibly intense in their effects. Hard for me to believe these doctors have experienced the second version and then don’t even speak about it. The internal pressure  that arises in these approaches is so intense, so immediate and so physical in manifestation that  cosmological philosophical considerations seem of much less immediate interest or concern.