Eclectic Meditation

[parsival]

Hello ,

 

I'm a guy who's getting on in years , and has no access to a teacher of any tradition ( Buddhist or Taoist ) . Anything i know i've picked up from books and YouTube.

 

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening. I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

 

I would welcome any comments , suggestions , guidance on this kind of regimen . For example would it be better to focus on one or other of these types of meditation or are they even compatible? I like the breath focus ( shamatha ? )  because when it goes well i experience some peace. 

 

Thanks

[Giles]

Bump for @stirling, who is well-placed to answer your question.

 

[snowymountains]

49 minutes ago, parsival said:

Hello ,

 

I'm a guy who's getting on in years , and has no access to a teacher of any tradition ( Buddhist or Taoist ) . Anything i know i've picked up from books and YouTube.

 

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening. I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

 

I would welcome any comments , suggestions , guidance on this kind of regimen . For example would it be better to focus on one or other of these types of meditation or are they even compatible? I like the breath focus ( shamatha ? )  because when it goes well i experience some peace. 

 

Breathing meditation is a type of Samatha meditation, it's probably the most common type of Samatha 

 

If you want to go solo, that's probably also possible but easier if you work with a teacher the first years.

 

Probably the best approach is to get find some sort of structured instructions on breathing meditation+open awareness+loving kindness. These three are the most common and most important ones.

 

But to begin with I'd stick to one school, as each school has their own style and subtleties, mixing them may be confusing.

 

You could visit meditation centres near you, to find a teacher and group you like working with. Some of them will charge nothing or something entirely nominal btw.

 

Edited August 29 by snowymountains

[stirling]

2 hours ago, parsival said:

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening. I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

 

In Zen, watching the breath is a preliminary practice intended to develop enough concentration for open awareness meditation.

 

When you sit Zazen do you experience even brief periods when the mind is still and quiet and/or are you able to let arising thoughts pass without engaging the "thinking mind"? If so, it is fine to let go of watching the breath and move fully into just experiencing "open awareness" in Zazen.

 

This type of meditation is not different from the experience of enlightened mind (which is no practice at all), and is therefore complete, requiring no other practice be added.

 

I am a priest in the Soto Zen tradition. You are welcome to message me privately.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, parsival said:

Hello ,

 

I'm a guy who's getting on in years , and has no access to a teacher of any tradition ( Buddhist or Taoist ) . Anything i know i've picked up from books and YouTube.

 

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening. I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

 

I would welcome any comments , suggestions , guidance on this kind of regimen . For example would it be better to focus on one or other of these types of meditation or are they even compatible? I like the breath focus ( shamatha ? )  because when it goes well i experience some peace. 

 

Thanks

All meditation of this type can be reduced to ‘settle the mind then look at it’ - watching the breath will settle the mind and zazen will help with looking at it’s nature.  So it’s a good combination.  As you get more experienced you will begin to understand how to develop it.  
 

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, parsival said:

no access to a teacher of any tradition

 

A lot of access is available online these days, FWIW. 

[Cobie]

Hi parsival (is that Perceval, as in the Story of the Grail?). Welcome to the forum.  
 

 

Edited August 29 by Cobie

[Gerard]

On 30/8/2024 at 1:51 AM, parsival said:

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening.

A word of caution/my advice:

 

Make sure you are putting as much effort or more (even better) in a moving meditation system or some sort of physical activity; eg. hiking.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:51 AM, parsival said:

Hello ,

 

I'm a guy who's getting on in years , and has no access to a teacher of any tradition ( Buddhist or Taoist ) . Anything i know i've picked up from books and YouTube.

 

I have a lot of time on my hands ; so recently i began to meditate . In the morning and evening. I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

 

I would welcome any comments , suggestions , guidance on this kind of regimen . For example would it be better to focus on one or other of these types of meditation or are they even compatible? I like the breath focus ( shamatha ? )  because when it goes well i experience some peace. 

 

Thanks
 

 

 

I'm interested in the distinction you see between focusing on the breath in the nose, and zazen.

Something I wrote in response to one of the koans in "The Blue Cliff Record" (case 22):
 

I find the “turtle-nose snake” case in the “Blue Cliff Record” helpful in feeling my jaw and skull in the balance of the body. Ch’an teacher Yuanwu offered the case (I’ll include only the first line):
 

‘Hsueh Feng taught the assembly saying, “On South Mountain there’s a turtle-nosed snake. All of you people must take a good look.”’
 

 

(Yuanwu’s commentary):

 

… When Hsueh Feng speaks this way, ‘On South Mountain there’s a turtle-nosed snake’, tell me, where is it?
 

My late teacher Wu Tsu said, “With this turtle-nosed snake, you must have the ability not to get your hands or legs bitten. Hold him tight by the back of the neck with one quick grab. Then you can join hands and walk along with me.”

 

The nose that came to mind when I read the case was a sea turtle’s nose—basically a pair of holes in a skull.

 

I find that awareness of the air moving through the holes in the skull behind the nose contributes both the dynamic of inhalation or exhalation and the balance of the head to the location of the center of balance.

 

Wu Tsu’s “join hands and walk with me”, I take to be a reference to an interaction between the placement of the arms and legs and the center of balance.  Regarding “one quick grab”, I can only say that I’m bound to be bitten by Wu Tsu, if I take his advice to mean there’s something I should do.  It’s about realizing a cessation of “doing”, but I think I might run into him, in the stretch of ligaments.

(Post:  Common Ground)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1 by Mark Foote

[Vajra Fist]

Here's a highly recommended guided meditation on the breath, from Thanissaro Bhikku - possibly the most well-respected of Western monastics. 

 

If you don't have a sangha nearby, listen to his dharma talks daily. 

 

https://youtube.com/@dhammatalksorg?si=sGyGrEehEEzI9gp_

 

I'd probably recommend that as a solo practice that could take you all the way to stream entry.

[parsival]

Thank you all for your responses , I have a lot to learn ( or unlearn ?) .

[ChiDragon]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:51 AM, parsival said:

 I do a half hour of focusing on the breath in the nose, .and midday i do about a half hour of zazen.

My suggestion is that you should do breathing, at the same time, while doing Zazen.

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, parsival said:

Thank you all for your responses , I have a lot to learn ( or unlearn ?) .

 

Keep going! You'll figure out what works for you. Personally, I find myself getting spaced out quite easily with keeping the breath at one point (I.e. tip of the nose).

 

So the body scan/breath method I recommended above works better for me, for when the mind is especially monkey-like. After a while, it's easier to settle down and keep it at one place. 

 

Some people however swear by breath at tip of the nose (I.e. the Pa Auk folk), and have gotten incredible results in terms of deep and profound concentration. 

 

Others like to practice a kind of 'just sitting' meditation.

 

Ultimately, it's worth experimenting, at least between traditions (not saying you should make up something yourself). Look into tried and tested approaches, find what works for you and what brings you results. 

 

"Verify for yourself" the Buddha said. 

 

 

 

 

[Gerard]

22 hours ago, parsival said:

Thank you all for your responses , I have a lot to learn ( or unlearn ?) .

 
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS BETTER.

 

One thing is certain: 

 

A lot of practice is needed. Years, decades, who knows (refer to the above).

 

Finding real life teacher(s) is a must in the beginning, so they can guide you in the right direction while in the meantime you'll quickly ascertain what this is all about.

 

Online teachings while convenient they don't teach the Dharma as it is unspoken truth. It's a matter of experience. 
 

Good luck!

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, Gerard said:

 
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS BETTER.

 

One thing is certain: 

 

A lot of practice is needed. Years, decades, who knows (refer to the above).

 

Finding real life teacher(s) is a must in the beginning, so they can guide you in the right direction while in the meantime you'll quickly ascertain what this is all about.

 

Online teachings while convenient they don't teach the Dharma as it is unspoken truth. It's a matter of experience. 
 

Good luck!
 

A good teacher is a great thing.  Nevertheless:

 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?

 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.

 

(Digha Nikaya Maha-parinibbana Sutta, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II p 108; Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”, above, rendered by Horner as “body, feelings, mind, and mental states”)

 

The way I practice the four:
 

1) Relax the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation;

2) Find a feeling of ease and calm the senses connected with balance, in inhalation and exhalation;

3) Appreciate and detach from thought, in inhalation and exhalation;

4) Look to the free location of consciousness for the automatic activity of inhalation and exhalation.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

How do you breathe during zazen?

 

Allow the diaphragm to move freely so that the breathing can be deep, easy, and natural. Don't control or manipulate the breath. You don't have to make the breath happen in any particular way. It will happen by itself if you take a posture that you can be reasonably comfortable in and position your body properly.

Ref: https://www.zen.org.nz/learn-how-to-meditate.html

[Vajra Fist]

13 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves

 

For me personally, this doesn't mean 'don't need a teacher', although it can mean that too. 

 

But it means if a teacher gives a dharma talk, or even if you're reading the canon, you recognise the lesson within your own mind. If you don't reflect on the meaning of what is being taught, and how it applies to all your own hangups, then you're unlikely to gain any real insight from the teaching, whether its online or inperson. 

 

I do feel like spiritual friends, perhaps in the form of someone who has some sort of responsibility for you - I.e. a teacher - is very useful in some respects. Not only to inspire and encourage, but also to guide your insights when you're stuck and crying out for help. 

 

But I don't think it is necessary in the same way as some zen schools insist.

 

Some people like to get a bit gatekeepery about meditation and say you can only practice under a qualified teacher. It's kind of a smug way of saying 'I have a good teacher, and I'm in a great position. My practice is better than most other people's.'

 

Meditation is as serious a practice as you make it - and that applies even to those in monasteries. 'Right intention' makes the difference between a practice that is just sitting for relaxation and mental health and one that leads to liberation. Why you practice determines how well you practice. 

Edited September 3 by Vajra Fist

[Paradoxal]

5 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Some people like to get a bit gatekeepery about meditation and say you can only practice under a qualified teacher. It's kind of a smug way of saying 'I have a good teacher, and I'm in a great position. My practice is better than most other people's.'

Respectfully, I have a bit of a differing opinion here, though as to who's "right" (or if it really matters lol) I cannot say. 

 

From what I've seen, meditation can be rather dangerous for the psyche and has quite a few common pitfalls; a teacher can help avoid those pitfalls and avert damage. Without a teacher, you'd end up having to struggle through on your own, which is definitely harder for very little benefit. Therefore, I'd argue that rather than it being smug, which it very well might be, the importance of the argument is safety first.

I certainly think that I would have had a much easier time of it if I had a meditation teacher, though that's in hindsight! 

[Giles]

14 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Respectfully, I have a bit of a differing opinion here, though as to who's "right" (or if it really matters lol) I cannot say. 

 

From what I've seen, meditation can be rather dangerous for the psyche and has quite a few common pitfalls; a teacher can help avoid those pitfalls and avert damage. Without a teacher, you'd end up having to struggle through on your own, which is definitely harder for very little benefit. Therefore, I'd argue that rather than it being smug, which it very well might be, the importance of the argument is safety first.

I certainly think that I would have had a much easier time of it if I had a meditation teacher, though that's in hindsight! 

 

Indeed.

 

Furthermore, you'd probably be wise to take @stirling up on his very kind offer.

 

[Vajra Fist]

31 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Respectfully, I have a bit of a differing opinion here, though as to who's "right" (or if it really matters lol) I cannot say. 

 

From what I've seen, meditation can be rather dangerous for the psyche and has quite a few common pitfalls; a teacher can help avoid those pitfalls and avert damage. Without a teacher, you'd end up having to struggle through on your own, which is definitely harder for very little benefit. Therefore, I'd argue that rather than it being smug, which it very well might be, the importance of the argument is safety first.

I certainly think that I would have had a much easier time of it if I had a meditation teacher, though that's in hindsight! 

 

Most of those documented cases you're describing occur in intensive retreats, normally Goenka lineage, which are invariably under the supervision of a teacher. In other words, having a teacher isn't really a safeguard.

 

If you're practicing on your own an hour a day, I'd say it's a pretty safe practice. There are many teachers who offer dana-based online consultation - Beth Upton jumps to mind - for when you hit a wall in your practice. 

[Giles]

7 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

There are many teachers who offer dana-based online consultation - Beth Upton jumps to mind - for when you hit a wall in your practice.

 

 

Did the Buddha levy a charge for his teachings..? 🤔

 

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

Did the Buddha levy a charge for his teachings..? 🤔

 

 

No, which is why she is dana-based and doesn't charge a fee. You donate to support the teacher if you wish to, or are able to.

 

There are plenty of other meditation teachers that charge for their time.

Edited September 3 by Vajra Fist

[Giles]

51 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

No, which is why she is dana-based and doesn't charge a fee. You donate to support the teacher if you wish to, or are able to.

 

 

Ah, "dana"... That term certainly crops up a lot in the realm of the commercial peddling of what was originally given freely by the Buddha.

 

Let's examine this a bit more closely, shall we?

 

On the webpage that's blatantly labelled "support-my-work", Upton states:

 

Quote

I believe the Dhamma to be priceless, of incomparable value. As such, I refuse to charge a price for it. I offer my time and teachings as a gift,

 

Source: https://bethupton.com/support-my-work/

 

 

So far, so good, on the face of it. 👍🏻

 

Unfortunately, she then proceeds to do a complete volte-face by asking for payment for her "gift" which she then also admits is actually her "work":

 

Quote

and invite you all to support me in return so that I may continue to do this work.

 

Source: https://bethupton.com/support-my-work/

 

 

I'd invite her set an example to her students and lead by example by getting a proper job and volunteering to teach meditation in her spare time instead of leeching a living off desperate seekers.

 

51 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

There are plenty of other meditation teachers that charge for their time.

 

 

Firstly, you've actually just admitted the truth of the matter here - that she does indeed charge for her time.

 

Secondly, sadly it is indeed commonpractice.

 

However, just because plenty of other meditation teachers also do the same, it certainly doesn't mean that it's an ethically or morally defensible practice.

 

Edited September 3 by Giles

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Giles said:

Furthermore, you'd probably be wise to take @stirling up on his very kind offer.

 

The offer was actually for Parsival, but I am happy to take questions from anyone interested in Zen or Dzogchen practice, or enlightenment, here or privately. 

[Giles]

Apologies @stirling! 😬

 

I've made the mistake of multitasking today and because both their names begin with "P", I've mixed them up... 😳