Eclectic Meditation

[Vajra Fist]

2 hours ago, Giles said:

ethically or morally defensible practice

 

If only she could learn from you, a beacon of morality.  

[Giles]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

If only she could learn from you, a beacon of morality.  

 

If Upton could only learn from herself and practice what she's preaching about the Dharma being priceless...

 

[Vajra Fist]

8 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

If Upton could only learn from herself and practice what she's preaching about the Dharma being priceless...

 

 

Unfortunately people need money to live. I'd much rather she accept donations from those who are able to give, and give her time fully to helping people. Than have a mundane career and have to dramatically scale back, or stop her dharma teaching.

 

She literally spends all year long either leading retreats for months at a time, or providing consultations to help people in their path. When not teaching, she practices solitary retreat in a cave network in Spain.

 

It might make you feel morally superior to find fault in someone like that. But I'd urge others to take with a pinch of salt the judgment of someone who can't even properly observe the fourth precept. 

Edited September 3 by Vajra Fist

[Giles]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Unfortunately people need money to live.

 

They do indeed and most of them get it by holding down real jobs in the real world instead of repackaging and trying to sell what was given to humanity for free by the Buddha.

 

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

I'd much rather she accept donations from those who are able to give, and give her time fully to helping people. Than have a mundane career and have to dramatically scale back, or stop her dharma teaching.

 

Well, if you're happy with it you should certainly continue down the path of funding her lifestyle for her.

 

4 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

She literally spends all year long either leading retreats for months at a time, or providing consultations to help people in their path. When not teaching, she practices solitary retreat in a cave network in Spain.

 

 

How lucky that she's got people willing to fund her ongoing escape from reality.

 

2 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

It might make you feel morally superior to find fault in someone like that. But I'd urge others to take with a pinch of salt the judgment of someone who can't even properly observe the fourth precept. 

Edited just now by Vajra Fist

 

It might indeed.

 

Alternatively, that might just be your projection.

 

[Vajra Fist]

Well, since you say you must practice meditation only under a teacher, and that your teacher be one who does not even allow students to generate merit through donations, then I wish you the best of luck in finding someone who meets your exacting criteria. 

[Vajra Fist]

While we're at it, might as well let every Buddhist monastery around the world crumble into the sea, since Giles has decreed that accepting donations is unbuddhist. 

 

No more funding that lavish monastic lifestyle. Stop trying to escape from reality you monks - there are vacancies at the local McDonald's. Real jobs in the real world!

[Giles]

2 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Well, since you say you must practice meditation only under a teacher, and that your teacher be one who does not even allow students to generate merit through donations, then I wish you the best of luck in finding someone who meets your exacting criteria. 

 

There's certainly a plethora of projecting there, my friend.

 

I've never stated that

1. you must practice meditation only under a teacher" or
2. that your teacher [should] be one who does not even allow students to generate merit through donations.

[Giles]

17 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

While we're at it, might as well let every Buddhist monastery around the world crumble into the sea, since Giles has decreed that accepting donations is unbuddhist. 

 

No more funding that lavish monastic lifestyle. Stop trying to escape from reality you monks - there are vacancies at the local McDonald's. Real jobs in the real world!

 

Again, a substantial amount of projection on your part mixed with various straw men.

 

I've not referred to "every Buddhist monastery around the world" nor have I suggested that they should "crumble into the sea". That's all entirely in your own imagination my friend.

 

Furthermore, I've never stated that the Buddhist monastic lifestyle is generally lavish, although some of them certainly qualify for that description.

 

Nor have I advocated that monks in general should get jobs in McDonald's, have I?

 

In fact, I've just pointed out the glaring inconsistency of what a particular individual, Upton, whose services you're advocating, has published on her website regarding "dana" and suggested that this troglodyte should earn her living more honestly.

 

However, it may well be the case that she's entirely incapable of so doing. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Vajra Fist]

 

14 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Again, a substantial amount of projection on your part mixed with various straw men.

 

I've not referred to "every Buddhist monastery around the world" nor have I suggested that they should "crumble into the sea". That's all entirely in your own imagination my friend.

 

Furthermore, I've never stated that the Buddhist monastic lifestyle is generally lavish, although some of them certainly qualify for that description.

 

Nor have I advocated that monks in general should get jobs in McDonald's, have I?

 

In fact, I've just pointed out the glaring inconsistency of what a particular individual, Upton, whose services you're advocating, has published on her website regarding "dana" and suggested that this troglodyte should earn her living more honestly.

 

However, it may well be the case that she's entirely incapable of so doing. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

 

Just gross. 

[Giles]

12 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Just gross. 

 

Don't stop there, be specific. Give me some proper feedback.

 

What exactly do you consider to be "gross"?

 

According to the Buddhist doctrine, correcting mistakes is extremely important:

 

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/uncollected/Shame.html

 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Giles said:

Ah, "dana"... That term certainly crops up a lot in the realm of the commercial peddling of what was originally given freely by the Buddha.

 

Let's examine this a bit more closely, shall we?

 

On the webpage that's blatantly labelled "support-my-work", Upton states:

 

Quote

 

I believe the Dhamma to be priceless, of incomparable value. As such, I refuse to charge a price for it. I offer my time and teachings as a gift,

 

Source: https://bethupton.com/support-my-work/

 

 

 

So far, so good, on the face of it. 👍🏻

 

Dana IS a proposition in Buddhism:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dāna#Buddhism

 

Speaking for myself, I feel it can complicate the teacher student relationship. I don't accept payment, but DO have students that have asked to give "dana". I support them doing so IF it is for the efficacy of the teachings, and comes from their gratitude in having found and applied them. The money goes to buy supplies, etc. for the zendo. Some teachers actually ask for payments because it weeds out the serious students from those that aren't. I get that, but it isn't the way I do things.

 

The dharma is free and always has been. It is everywhere, 24/7. It is on the back of cereal boxes, and is spoken by Britney Spears, if you know what you are looking for. Still, it helps sometimes to have someone show you where to look.

[Giles]

That was my intuition about how you operate stirling (that you probably don't solicit).

 

I'm glad to have that intuition confirmed.

 

Edited September 17 by Giles
☯️

[Mark Foote]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:54 AM, Vajra Fist said:

 

For me personally, this doesn't mean 'don't need a teacher', although it can mean that too. 

 

But it means if a teacher gives a dharma talk, or even if you're reading the canon, you recognise the lesson within your own mind. If you don't reflect on the meaning of what is being taught, and how it applies to all your own hangups, then you're unlikely to gain any real insight from the teaching, whether its online or inperson. 

 

I do feel like spiritual friends, perhaps in the form of someone who has some sort of responsibility for you - I.e. a teacher - is very useful in some respects. Not only to inspire and encourage, but also to guide your insights when you're stuck and crying out for help. 

 

But I don't think it is necessary in the same way as some zen schools insist.

 

Some people like to get a bit gatekeepery about meditation and say you can only practice under a qualified teacher. It's kind of a smug way of saying 'I have a good teacher, and I'm in a great position. My practice is better than most other people's.'

 

Meditation is as serious a practice as you make it - and that applies even to those in monasteries. 'Right intention' makes the difference between a practice that is just sitting for relaxation and mental health and one that leads to liberation. Why you practice determines how well you practice. 
 

 

 

There's another aspect to having a teacher. 

 

I took judo in high school from Moon Watanabe, who  taught at the Menlo Park Recreation Center (in Menlo Park, California).  There was a fee to cover the cost of the dojo upkeep or maybe the Park and Recs rental, I'm not sure which--it was very nominal.  The dojo was in an upstairs loft at one end of the gym, had tatami mats and canvas stretched over the top, the way a judo dojo should have.

 

Moon worked as a janitor at Lenkurt Electric, and his first three students came from there.  There's an example of a teacher having a day job, and offering out of the goodness of his heart and his love of the art.  Not that I think there's anything wrong with a teacher accepting donations.

Moon's throw was the foot sweep.  Every judo teacher has one throw that is their signature, two at most, even though they teach all the others.

Everyone in the dojo learned the sweep as though by osmosis, and it's not really an easy throw.  I scored a half-point with it once at a tournament, I was no exception.  I watched his most senior student earn his black belt with it, a great day at the dojo.

 

Point of the story is, there's something physical in these arts.  That aspect is mostly learned by being in proximity with someone who practices the art.

I went to a lot of Kobun Chino Otogawa's lectures in the early seventies.  I didn't do any sesshins at that time, and I never became his student. 

 

In 1975, I took a day and said "I'm going to stay aware of each breath in and each breath out all day". Of course, it didn't quite work like that, but that was my effort.  In the afternoon, I was sitting in a chair behind a desk when suddenly my breath got up and walked across the room, or at least that's what it felt like.

 

In the 1980's, I attended a lecture Kobun gave at the S. F. Zen Center.  At the close of the lecture, he said:  "You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around."  I think he was admonishing the hot shots at the Zen Center, but I sure knew what he was talking about.

 

By that time, I had spent years trying to get zazen to do everything in my life.  That didn't happen, of course, but my life became about trying to figure out where that piece fit in the bigger picture (whilst holding that day job).

Fifty years on, and it turns out that Gautama's way of living was the four-fold mindfulness I quoted, but the particulars of the four-fold mindfulness included the experience of "zazen sitting zazen".  Helps me to know that. 

 

“Don’t ever think that you can sit zazen! That’s a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!”

(Shunryu Suzuki to Blanche Hartman, here)

 

 

If you're interested, you can read the gist, here.

Did I pick it up from Kobun, like I picked up the sweep from Moon?  I'll never know, but I wouldn't be surprised.





 

Edited September 7 by Mark Foote

[Giles]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

Dana IS a proposition in Buddhism:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dāna#Buddhism

 

 

I'm aware of that and my understanding of it was pretty much what's quoted in the article:

 

Quote

"In Buddhist culture, dāna (donation) is any relinquishing of ownership to a recipient without expecting anything in return."

 

(My underlining.)

 

 

So, from that definition, a "gift" would not qualify as dana if something was given either as payment for services rendered or with the intention of purchasing "merit".

 

[snowymountains]

I believe the early Buddhist monks did carry a bowl and those who attended the Dharma talks did fill that bowl with food. It was not compulsory but it was the social convention of the times.

 

Today in Theravada they typically charge nothing, in Zen practically they typically charge something very nominal and typically it's optional too, which is more or less analogous to a bowl of food.

 

An optional bowl of food donation is ok in my view, I mean ultimately those who teach the Dharma need to eat somehow, but it should not be a barrier to entry for those who want to attend Dharma talks and have themselves trouble securing food, the monthly bills etc.

[Giles]

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I believe the early Buddhist monks did carry a bowl and those who attended the Dharma talks did fill that bowl with food. It was not compulsory but it was the social convention of the times.

 

Today in Theravada they typically charge nothing, in Zen practically they typically charge something very nominal and typically it's optional too, which is more or less analogous to a bowl of food.

 

An optional bowl of food donation is ok in my view, I mean ultimately those who teach the Dharma need to eat somehow, but it should not be a barrier to entry for those who want to attend Dharma talks and have themselves trouble securing food, the monthly bills etc.

 

 

An absolutely sensible view on it. 👍🏻

 

Unfortunately, some of those who are peddling their own version of these ancient teachings are making a substantial profit that's considerably in excess of the traditional 2 bowls of food a day.

 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Giles said:

An absolutely sensible view on it. 👍🏻

 

Unfortunately, some of those who are peddling their own version of these ancient teachings are making a substantial profit that's considerably in excess of the traditional 2 bowls of food a day.

 

In an absolute sense, a teacher with realization knows that they are provided for and doesn't generally worry about where livelihood comes from. Whether they have wealth or live very simply isn't necessarily relevant. Their identification is (ever increasingly) with the "awareness" of being, not with "self"hood.

 

From the Heart Sutra:

 

Quote

Shariputra, all dharmas are marked by emptiness；

they neither arise nor cease,

are neither defiled nor pure,

neither increase nor decrease. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

In a relative sense, being a dharma teacher isn't generally a high-paying gig, though there are exceptions. This is especially true if you don't have insight. If you DO have insight, the world at large isn't interested in it, and those that are remain skeptical from years of being told that enlightenment is somehow impossible. If you are a planner, best to have some other form of income from before awakening, or a continuing day job. 

 

-

 

If it matters: I don't think Beth Upton, for example, is living a glamorous life. I have two friends who are known for their plethora of published books that live near me, both ordained, and neither are rolling in cash or doing seminars in Sedona.

 

...back to chopping wood and carrying (tap) water. 

[Giles]

1 minute ago, stirling said:

If it matters: I don't think Beth Upton, for example, is living a glamorous life.

 

 

That's certainly part of the tragedy of what I've seen.

 

[Cobie]

Eckhart Tolle (says Google) has $80 million in 2024 and still charging! I doubt someone ‘enlightened’ would be that greedy.

 

 

Edited September 4 by Cobie

[forestofclarity]

It’s absolutely ridiculous to call someone a troglodyte for requesting Dana on a website to support themselves as a dharma teacher. Maybe worthwhile to examine why you find this so triggering. 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Eckhart Tolle (says Google) has $80 million in 2024 and still charging! I doubt someone ‘enlightened’ would be that greedy.

 

 

 

Enlightenment is about to get an IPO 🤣

I propose ENLT as the ticker name 😁

[Cobie]

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Enlightenment is about to get an IPO 🤣

I propose ENLT as the ticker name 😁

I’m sure I’d agree, if only I knew what it meant.  IPO? ENLT? ticker name?

 

 

Edited September 4 by Cobie

[Giles]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

It’s absolutely ridiculous to call someone a troglodyte for requesting Dana on a website to support themselves as a dharma teacher. Maybe worthwhile to examine why you find this so triggering.

 

 

Upton's chief proponent on this thread has stated:

 

On 03/09/2024 at 9:26 PM, Vajra Fist said:

When not teaching, she practices solitary retreat in a cave network in Spain.

 

Assuming that's true (and I've no reason to doubt his assertion), Upton is a cave dweller in her spare time.

 

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "troglodyte" means "cave dweller".

 

Hope that's cleared up this misunderstanding now?

 

Edited September 4 by Giles

[forestofclarity]

23 hours ago, stirling said:

Dana IS a proposition in Buddhism:

 

Interesting fundraising point--- it's been said that people generally give more when dana is requested. However, I've heard that more places are going to set fees. Some have said it is because of the younger generation, but I think Buddhism is spanning out past the middle class. 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Maybe worthwhile to examine why you find this so triggering. 

 

Im wondering how many people here have even had an extended conversation with Beth

 

I have, and theres no doubt in my mind about her

 

Shes not only one of the good ones.  Shes one of a very select few that actually got attainments that are of objectice significance during her training.

 

For those who have developed the right perception its as plain as a smack in the face. For those who dont..well, I need say no more. Its blatantly clear

 

Ironically, she spent most of day away from the monastery, away from their rituals and routines(a little hint for the perceptive) , and has a  very good relationship with Pau Auk himself

Edited September 4 by Shadow_self