Eclectic Meditation

[snowymountains]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

I’m sure I’d agree, if only I knew what it meant.  IPO? ENLT? ticker name?

 

 

 

Initial Public Offering aka getting listed in the stock market.

Well, you have AMZN for Amazon, JPM for JP Morgan, Tolle's business should rightfully use ENLT 😁

Edited September 5 by snowymountains

[Vajra Fist]

.

Edited September 5 by Vajra Fist

[Giles]

On 01/09/2024 at 3:59 PM, parsival said:

Thank you all for your responses , I have a lot to learn ( or unlearn ?) .

 

The thing about meditation is that if it's complicated, you're probably going down a dead-end track.

 

If your practice is effective you'll discover that there's only one thing everywhere, that you're It and that the fabric of It is woven from pure Love.

 

Another thing to consider is that nobody who is Self-realised will accept anything from you in exchange for helping you to find out who you really are. The Self-realised's material needs are met entirely by creation Itself.

 

It really is that simple.

 

[forestofclarity]

In reference to your earlier request for specific feedback, do you think your posts in recent days (in this thread even) aligns with this insight, or is there room for improvement? 

 

3 hours ago, Giles said:

that the fabric of It is woven from pure Love.

[Giles]

8 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

In reference to your earlier request for specific feedback, do you think your posts in recent days (in this thread even) aligns with this insight, or is there room for improvement? 

 

 

I don't recall asking you for any feedback whatsoever, my friend.

 

[Apech]

So you see, at the end of the day, eclectic meditation involves a lot of bitching back and forth.

[Mark Foote]

[Thrice Daily]

On 01/09/2024 at 4:59 PM, parsival said:

Thank you all for your responses , I have a lot to learn ( or unlearn ?) .

Where about are you based? 
 

I meditated a little on and off, an hour here an hour there. 
 

Then I found Vippasana. 10 hours per day for 10 days.

 

So practical, came away from there feeling so confident about my ability to sit and develop whenever.. And for as long as I wanted.

 

it’s such nice training, and free. There is also the option to work at the centres , serving the others that sit on the next course us a great option. 
 

I can’t recommend this enough. The teaching is basic there , still if you have questions you can ask and will soon get the point about questions and how to treat phenomena that arises in the minds eye.

 

Yeah that would be the totality of my advice. There is no bells or whistles with this system it’s very clear cut and straight forward, no nonsense and basic.

 

Yet it prepared me to go sit for as long as I wanted. If scanning gets too much return to Anapana. That simple

 

hope that helps, and one day you give yourself the gift of Vippasana too…

[Mark Foote]

On 9/26/2024 at 12:53 PM, Thrice Daily said:

...I meditated a little on and off, an hour here an hour there. 
 

Then I found Vippasana. 10 hours per day for 10 days.

 

So practical, came away from there feeling so confident about my ability to sit and develop whenever.. And for as long as I wanted.

 

it’s such nice training, and free. There is also the option to work at the centres , serving the others that sit on the next course us a great option. 
 

I can’t recommend this enough. The teaching is basic there , still if you have questions you can ask and will soon get the point about questions and how to treat phenomena that arises in the minds eye.

 

Yeah that would be the totality of my advice. There is no bells or whistles with this system it’s very clear cut and straight forward, no nonsense and basic.

 

Yet it prepared me to go sit for as long as I wanted. If scanning gets too much return to Anapana. That simple

 

hope that helps, and one day you give yourself the gift of Vippasana too…

 

 

 

An excerpt from something I'm writing for my own site.

 

In one of the sermons of the Pali Canon, Gautama the Buddha described “seven (types of) persons existing in the world”.  The first two were “the one who is freed both ways”, and “the one freed by means of intuitive wisdom”:
 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed both ways? As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom his cankers are utterly destroyed. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.

 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom? As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. This, monks, is called the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent…

 

(MN 70 [Pali Text Society pp 151-154]; more on “The Deliverances”, DN 15 Mahanidanasutta, Pali Text Society DN ii section 35 pp 68-69; pronouns replaced)

“Those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal”, Gautama taught as a set of five concentrations. They generally followed a set of four “corporeal” concentrations, four concentrations that culminate in the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. The “incorporeal” concentrations, meanwhile, were said to culminate in the cessation of volition in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving.

 

The three “cankers” are given as “sense-pleasures”, “becoming”, and “ignorance” (MN III 121, PTS Vol. III pp 151-2). As to what is “destroyed” in the two types of persons who are “freed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (Sujato Bhikkyu, “What is Bhava (becoming)”, discourse.suttacentral.net), and the roots of the craving for what is delusion are destroyed.

 

In the sermon on the types of persons in the world, Gautama went on to list five types for whom “there is (yet) something to be done through diligence”.  The five have one thing in common:  they have all “seen by means of wisdom”, yet their cankers were not “utterly destroyed”. Consequently, “there is (yet) something to be done through diligence” for them.

 

There are schools of modern Buddhism that regard concentration as an ancilliary practice in the attainment of wisdom, as a useful precursor to the attainment of insight. In the sermon above, Gautama acknowledged that there are indeed those who are “freed by means of intuitive wisdom” without experience of the five “incorporeal” Deliverances, but so far as I know he did not teach a path to such a freedom.

 

The paths that he did teach, eight-fold for the learner and ten-fold for the adept, both included “right concentration” among the elements.
 

 

I'm not saying that the practice taught as Vipassana is not useful, nor that it doesn't have roots in the accepted practice of some modern schools of Theravadin Buddhism (principally in Myanmar). I'm only saying that persons who have "seen by means of wisdom" may still have "something to be done by diligence".

 

Myself, my study has been solely for the reconciliation of activity of the body by virtue of the location of consciousness with my everyday life, and I believe in his description of his way of living--which Gautama described as "… something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too" (SN 54.9, Pali Text Society SN vol. V p 285)--I have that reconciliation.

 

“Don’t ever think that you can sit zazen! That’s a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!”

(Shunryu Suzuki to Blanche Hartman, here)

 

 

Edited September 28 by Mark Foote

[ChiDragon]

On 9/1/2024 at 12:02 PM, ChiDragon said:

My suggestion is that you should do breathing, at the same time, while doing Zazen.

For those who laughed at my comment. Please pay close attention to this:

Ref: https://www.verywellhealth.com/diaphragmatic-breathing-how-to-benefits-and-exercises-5219974

[Mark Foote]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

For those who laughed at my comment. Please pay close attention to this:

Ref: https://www.verywellhealth.com/diaphragmatic-breathing-how-to-benefits-and-exercises-5219974

 

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Not to repeat myself, but:

 

Dogen wrote:
 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…
 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi)

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

("Take the Backward Step")
 

 

That's shikantaza, and the zazen that sits zazen.  Zazen doesn't sit zazen when you are doing something.

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 9/29/2024 at 12:42 PM, Mark Foote said:

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation–

If that was what you have learned, then, it is only your way. I have no reason to laugh at you. I just breathe and there is no need to be wasting my time in counting the breath.

Edited October 1 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

I love counting breaths . It keeps me anchored to the practice and acts as a self meditation 

 

and good way to (at least partially) bypass the conscious mind, internal chatter etc.

 

Even more when counting backwards. 
 

Another good thing about Mantak Chia (imho) is the emphasis on doing things 9,18,27,36 times etc

 

its a nice rhythm counting in nines. Many times especially with physical tapping and the like, 9’s become 3 sets of 3. 
 

It’s a nice mental exercise and certainly is a good way to get around the chatter and really be present in the practices.

 

I started doing the “Chi Self Massage” book again two nights ago before bed, so each night I’ll do a few exercises from it. 

It’s such a great book to commit to memory…

 

Really good meditative chi massage. Great stuff 👍 

Edited October 1 by Thrice Daily

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

It’s a nice mental exercise and certainly is a good way to get around the chatter and really be present in the practices.

IMHO Breathing alone should be suffice to occupy the mind without distraction. Your mind is not in the empty state while counting your breath.

[Thrice Daily]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

IMHO Breathing alone should be suffice to occupy the mind without distraction. Your mind is not in the empty state while counting your breath.

It’s like any mantra really. It serves and creates the same function.

 

Have the read the book ‘zero limits’ it is very scientific . Or at least it offers scientific rational behind mantra.

 

it’s very interesting book. I think if you started reading it from the beginning page by page, you would not be able to put the book down for a good 30 pages…

[awarenessrules]

@stirling what's the difference between the traditional Buddhist insight meditation and zazen practice? I am a bit confused because both practices teach "watching your thoughts" Can you kindly clarify the difference?

[stirling]

7 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

@stirling what's the difference between the traditional Buddhist insight meditation and zazen practice? I am a bit confused because both practices teach "watching your thoughts" Can you kindly clarify the difference?

 

Zazen is meditation with an object. In Zen, the object (breath, concentration on an object, or visualization) is only a way IN. When the mind is sufficiently quiet most meditators find that the object drops out for moments at a time and there is stillness. Shikantaza (like Dzogchen in Tibetan traditions) is just resting in that stillness and complete awareness - meditation with NO object. Another way to think of it is that the ENTIRE field of experience is the object, seen from the still mind. This "no-thing" stillness and "everything" field of experience are the same view... two sides of the same coin. The resulting "state" in both cases is no different from enlightened mind... IS enlightened mind. 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/29/2024 at 1:11 PM, ChiDragon said:

If that was what you have learned, then, it is only your way. I have no reason to laugh at you. I just breathe and there is no need to be wasting my time in counting the breath.

 

On 9/28/2024 at 3:57 PM, ChiDragon said:

On 9/1/2024 at 12:02 PM, ChiDragon said:

My suggestion is that you should do breathing, at the same time, while doing Zazen.

For those who laughed at my comment. Please pay close attention to this:

Ref: https://www.verywellhealth.com/diaphragmatic-breathing-how-to-benefits-and-exercises-5219974

 

Doing diaphragmatic breathing might be a good "preparatory practice for shikantaza"--I do think it's true that:

 

for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

12 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

 

what's the difference between the traditional Buddhist insight meditation and zazen practice? I am a bit confused because both practices teach "watching your thoughts" Can you kindly clarify the difference?

 

 

"Watching your thoughts" is not exactly the practice that Gautama recommended and practiced as his own way of living:

 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN 54.1; Pali Text Society vol V p 275-276)

 

I've already mentioned (above) that in my opinion, there is no traditional Buddhist "insight meditation", at least not as far as the early Buddhist texts. There are people who are freed from the desire for sensual pleasures, for renewing existence (becoming), and for delusion (for ignorance), who were freed by means of "intuitive wisdom", but Gautama did not teach a path to "intuitive wisdom" alone.  He taught a way of living (the arising of mindfulness in the four fields) that embraced the cessation of volition in action of body, speech, and mind (in concentration).

 

"Just sitting" is the experience of action of the body in inhalation and exhalation in the absence of volition.

 

 

Edited October 2 by Mark Foote

[awarenessrules]

On 10/3/2024 at 1:23 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

"Watching your thoughts" is not exactly the practice that Gautama recommended and practiced as his own way of living:

 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

 

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN 54.1; Pali Text Society vol V p 275-276)

 

I've already mentioned (above) that in my opinion, there is no traditional Buddhist "insight meditation", at least not as far as the early Buddhist texts. There are people who are freed from the desire for sensual pleasures, for renewing existence (becoming), and for delusion (for ignorance), who were freed by means of "intuitive wisdom", but Gautama did not teach a path to "intuitive wisdom" alone.  He taught a way of living (the arising of mindfulness in the four fields) that embraced the cessation of volition in action of body, speech, and mind (in concentration).

 

"Just sitting" is the experience of action of the body in inhalation and exhalation in the absence of volition.

 

 

 

So you mean zen meditation is the original meditation that Buddha taught? Vipassana or insight was later invented? Also when you reach a certain stage that you are only focusing on breath with no distractions, what should be the next step? Most Buddhists say to switch over to insight practice, what does Zen Buddhism say when you master breath concentration?

[awarenessrules]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:56 PM, stirling said:

 

Zazen is meditation with an object. In Zen, the object (breath, concentration on an object, or visualization) is only a way IN. When the mind is sufficiently quiet most meditators find that the object drops out for moments at a time and there is stillness. Shikantaza (like Dzogchen in Tibetan traditions) is just resting in that stillness and complete awareness - meditation with NO object. Another way to think of it is that the ENTIRE field of experience is the object, seen from the still mind. This "no-thing" stillness and "everything" field of experience are the same view... two sides of the same coin. The resulting "state" in both cases is no different from enlightened mind... IS enlightened mind. 

 

I have read that shikantaza is just sitting meditation. But the nature of mind is to always look for something to focus on or wonder about. So when one master's the breath meditation what should be next step rather than moving to insight practice? How can one achieve just sitting state? You are no longer focusing on breath and also not watching thoughts or sensations (insight, Vipassana etc), so what should be the practice then? I am asking this because I recently met a person who was deep into meditation for 20 years and now tells everyone that meditation is not a normal practice and it destroys the mind and body over time. Because it is exactly the opposite of what a normal mind should do. It leads to detachement, lack of empathy, delusions, lack of responsibility towards family etc, . He was deep into breath focus meditation and he achieved several concentration jhanas. He said he was so addicted to pleasurable states that he lost his job, his family, hated responsibility for anything, just meditating 10 hrs per day. It was like heroin or cocaine addiction. Also a few years later he went into dark night of soul and developed several mind And body health issues. He spent lots of money on his chronic health issues but doctors had no idea whats wrong with him. So he left meditation and then more suffering started because he craved those pleasurable states. He said that it took him 4 years to completely quit meditation and he slowly regained health but some health issues became permanent due to extensive damage to organs. We are being told that meditation has lots of health benefits so I am curious what actually went wrong with him. He now tells everyone to stay away from any type of meditation. Is it because he did not switch to insight or just sitting (zen) practice at the right time after achieving breath focus mastery that he endured so much suffering because he lacked wisdom. Also can you kindly recommend books for practicing shikantaza or silent illumination after mastering breath focus? There are tons of books about insight or Vipassana but very few authentic books about shikantaza or silent illumination which are zen practices. Thanks

Edited October 5 by awarenessrules

[stirling]

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

But the nature of mind is to always look for something to focus on or wonder about.

 

In Shikantaza thoughts arise, but they pass, and with some skill more often than not do not create a second thought. While discursive thought might seem to be the province of the "mind", the province of the NATURE of Mind (notice the large M) is actually a clean, simple awareness. That clean, simple awareness is what is rested in... it is what we truly ARE.

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

So when one master's the breath meditation what should be next step rather than moving to insight practice?

 

In Zen or Dzogchen, see above.

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

How can one achieve just sitting state? You are no longer focusing on breath and also not watching thoughts or sensations (insight, Vipassana etc), so what should be the practice then?

 

I actually have already answered that question for you in an post above. You practice being awake, and aware. That is it. If you are looking for more specific instruction feel free to message me. 

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

I am asking this because I recently met a person who was deep into meditation for 20 years and now tells everyone that meditation is not a normal practice and it destroys the mind and body over time. Because it is exactly the opposite of what a normal mind should do.

 

I have been meditating since 1990, and don't have any of those problems. I don't know anyone who has, honestly. The thinking mind isn't "normal". It is an engine of suffering and struggle with the world. When the mind is still it is how it naturally is. The mistake is that most people believe that who they are is their thinking process. It isn't. It is easy to prove to yourself. When the mind is still you can watch thoughts arise and pass. If you are watching them do this, how is it possible that you are your thoughts? What you are is what WATCHES the thoughts. What is that? Find out for yourself.

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

It leads to detachement, lack of empathy, delusions, lack of responsibility towards family etc, .

 

Yes, it leads to detachment, development of COMPASSION (but yes, less empathy), where the definition might be:

 

Quote

1. The action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another.

 

This doesn't really happen as often because identification with a "self" (or someone elses) gets softened. 

 

Lack of responsibility? As a father that raised two children, I can't agree with that. 

 

If he had character flaws those were always his.

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

He now tells everyone to stay away from any type of meditation. Is it because he did not switch to insight or just sitting (zen) practice at the right time after achieving breath focus mastery that he endured so much suffering because he lacked wisdom.

 

I don't think so. I think he is just a human like so many others. There are endless paths to enlightenment... there isn't a right set of practices that must be done at the right time. Practices (including meditation) don't actually CAUSE enlightenment. As I like to quote:

Quote

 “Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” - Shuryu Suzuki Roshi

 

 

I would suggest doing the practice you are drawn to. If Zen and its practices seem to pull you, try it and see if it motivates you to practice. 

 

9 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

Also can you kindly recommend books for practicing shikantaza or silent illumination after mastering breath focus? There are tons of books about insight or Vipassana but very few authentic books about shikantaza or silent illumination which are zen practices. Thanks

 

This shift in practice is very simple. As I say above, watch your thoughts. When you notice there is a gap in them and the mind is quiet, rest in that gap, being aware, but with the mind still. As you continue to rest in that mental stillness, the periods of stillness will come more easily and frequently. When you find yourself lost in thoughts again, start over. Eventually there will be 10's of seconds or more where there is simple presence. This is enough to start with. Feel free to message me with more complex questions... but why not just try it first and see if you can see what I mean, and do it? Message me once you have tried it a few times, and I can tell you more, or suggest some reading... but more reading is not necessarily going to be helpful. It is practice and experimentation that really matter.

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

This shift in practice is very simple. As I say above, watch your thoughts. When you notice there is a gap in them and the mind is quiet, rest in that gap, being aware, but with the mind still.

I think I read one form of Samadhi as man is deprived circumstances are not deprived.

 

This I feel is very helpful when you want to maintain a gap in thoughts , switch to visual and hold attention 

 

But then whatever it is, practice, practice, practice

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, awarenessrules said:

 

So you mean zen meditation is the original meditation that Buddha taught? Vipassana or insight was later invented? Also when you reach a certain stage that you are only focusing on breath with no distractions, what should be the next step? Most Buddhists say to switch over to insight practice, what does Zen Buddhism say when you master breath concentration?
 

 

 

Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa once said, "nobody masters zazen" (can't quote you a reference at the moment).

To me that says, "nobody masters breath concentration."

 

About Vipassana:  Gautama taught that there are persons who are freed "both ways", and persons who are freed solely through "intuitive wisdom".  "Both ways" would be through both concentration and "intuitive wisdom". 

 

Nevertheless, the eight-fold path for the learner and the ten-fold path for the adept that Gautama taught both include "right concentration" among the elements. I think you could say that although Gautama acknowledged there were those who were freed through "intuitive wisdom" alone, he didn't teach a path to "intuitive wisdom" alone.

 

Satipatthana Sutta is often cited as the method of Vipassana, and Satipatthana includes only a passing reference to concentration, it's true.  However, there's also a Mahasatipatthana Sutta, a "greater" or "larger" Satipatthana Sutta, that does include a description of the four initial concentrations. 

 

"Right concentration" includes "one-pointedness of mind":

 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components, this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

 

(MN III 117; Pali Text Society vol III p 114; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)
 

 

Modern Buddhists don't agree on what "one-pointedness of mind" is, exactly. I would say look for the mind to move away from the head in the moments before falling asleep, then allow for that same freedom of movement in seated meditation.

 

... making self-surrender the object of (one's) thought, (one) lays hold of concentration, (one) lays hold of one-pointedness.   

 

(SN 48.10, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parentheticals paraphrase original)

 

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970, edited by Bill Redican)
 

 

The way I experience "one-pointedness":

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

 

That would be why nobody masters breath concentration.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5 by Mark Foote

[Thrice Daily]

On 05/10/2024 at 10:39 AM, awarenessrules said:

So you mean zen meditation is the original meditation that Buddha taught? Vipassana or insight was later invented?

I’m pretty sure Zen Buddhism was attributed to Bodidharma an Indian Prince who made his way to China and influenced the monks there to do exercises as they were weak from sitting…

 

Vippasana I was told were the original practical basic teachings of the Buddha, (well there have been many Buddhas)

 

Really though it is just breath and sensation so I believe this would be correct. There are no statues, no candles, flowers, scented water and so on. Just quiet individual practice.

 

Its great.