Taoist methods

[Taomeow]

[Gerard]

Combine that map (energy-based, yin & yang, creation, transformation and destruction) with the path of the mind (beyond energy, beyond the yin-yang) and you have a complete one.

 

The Progress of Insight

 

One of the most profound things about these insight stages is that they are strangely predictable regardless of the practitioner or the insight tradition. Texts that are 2,000 years old describe the stages just the way people go through them today, though there will be some individual variation with respect to the individual specifics today as then. The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and the Theravada, the maps of the Kabbalists, and many non-Buddhist traditions of India are all remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. 
 

Overwhelming, isn't it?

Edited September 2 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

Curious to hear from folks who have undertaken studying and practicing (and maybe teaching?) any of these methods.  I've learned and used some from each category.  Within each, I've familiarized myself with most, have given much time and effort to some, undertaken a cursory foray into others, and haven't touched still others.  Of course the list, like all lists, could be organized rather differently, expanded, contracted, and refurbished terminology wise.  (E.g., there exists a tradition of including most of what's on that map under the broader notion of feng shui, not feng shui as it is known in the West where self-appointed masters sort of rearrange chairs on the deck of the Titanic and call it feng shui, but as a fundamental taoist space-time science underlying all others.)  But at a glance, someone interested in taoism (supposedly) might get a very general idea of what it is that taoists actually do (as opposed to what its accidental tourists talk about.)  I always give this suggestion to those with budding taoist interests: pick something from an array of what taoists do and start doing it.  That's a foot in the door.  Limiting one's participation to thinking, reading, writing, talking "about" (and, yes, even "meditating" without a clear idea of "how," "what for" and other technicalities) is a foot jammed in the door that is being shut.

 

6 hours ago, Gerard said:

Combine that map (energy-based, yin & yang, creation, transformation and destruction) with the path of the mind (beyond energy, beyond the yin-yang) and you have a complete one.

  

Interestingly enough, any one of the methods can be complete, the whole thing is holographic.  But to get the whole enchilada, this one thing should become all things to the practitioner.  One would have to go deeper and broader, higher and lower, faster and slower, engage expansive and concentrated thinking and no-thinking, throw everything and the kitchen sink at it.   

[DynamicEquilibrium]

 Nice map, these 5 skills just like the five fingers rooted in the palm to form the complete system of a hand indeed!

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 there exists a tradition of including most of what's on that map under the broader notion of feng shui

 

Yes, fengshui through the four pillars, divining and shape reading as one for an integrated way of decoding/diagnosis.

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

 Nice map, these 5 skills just like the five fingers

they say to detect an image made by AI you gotta look for small incongruous details like 6 fingers on a hand. In this diagram the top branch says 'Mountain', wtf does mountain even mean here? And then you go...ahh nice try AI. but no cigar. the 6th finger gave you away.

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Curious to hear from folks who have undertaken studying and practicing (and maybe teaching?) any of these methods.

 

When I first started practicing Daoist meditation, I recall asking my teacher about what books I could read to help me along. His response was ‘don’t waste your time reading - practice, practice, practice!’ He was emphatic about practice over theory in all things Daoist.

 

He was also my martial arts teacher. He pushed us to study the basics of multiple arts (external and 3 internals) and then to narrow our focus to one that suited us best and go as far and deep as possible in that one discipline. When teaching, he would demonstrate a movement three times, no more and no less. If we didn’t get it, we would have to try again next time. I quickly learned to always watch the footwork and the waist, everything else can be deduced from that. If he liked you, he would use you to demonstrate and teach the more subtle aspects non-verbally through eye contact and facial expression as he applied the techniques with you in front of the class.

[Apech]

53 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

they say to detect an image made by AI you gotta look for small incongruous details like 6 fingers on a hand. In this diagram the top branch says 'Mountain', wtf does mountain even mean here? And then you go...ahh nice try AI. but no cigar. the 6th finger gave you away.

 

It's a very big hill to climb.

[Taomeow]

47 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

they say to detect an image made by AI you gotta look for small incongruous details like 6 fingers on a hand. In this diagram the top branch says 'Mountain', wtf does mountain even mean here? And then you go...ahh nice try AI. but no cigar. the 6th finger gave you away.

 

Most humans translate stuff from the Chinese even worse, and most taoist compilations fare worse than most texts and often contain inexplicable stuff or sheer nonsense or both.  However, while this Mountain might have been an AI glitch or a human glitch, it might also be none of the above and quite meaningful.  It is one possible way to render the notion of "Stillness," by using the corresponding trigram Gen, aka Mountain, aka Stillness, which is an acceptable general reference to the practices cultivating same as the foundation from which they are undertaken. 

 

Besides, 

 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 Of course the list, like all lists, could be organized rather differently, expanded, contracted, and refurbished terminology wise. 

     

 

[Taomeow]

25 minutes ago, doc benway said:

If he liked you, he would use you to demonstrate and teach the more subtle aspects non-verbally through eye contact and facial expression as he applied the techniques with you in front of the class.

 

Your teacher was more merciful than mine.  My teacher didn't mind that I have this habit of meowing in situations where normal people go "ah!" or "ouch!" or "watch out!" -- it's my idiosyncratic, totally spontaneous way to react to an unexpected jolt, sudden danger, etc..  But he demonstrated the most arcane martial moves on me by calling out to the group, "Come here everybody!  Pay close attention!  I'll teach you how to make her meow!" 

Oh the indignity!      

[Gerard]

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

the whole thing is holographic.  But to get the whole enchilada, this one thing should become all things to the practitioner.  

Of course like dandelion seeds. Tiny things flying in a vortex as expressions of a miraculous whole.

 

The mind is at the root of ALL. 

[Taoist Texts]

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Most humans translate stuff from the Chinese even worse, and most taoist compilations fare worse than most texts and often contain inexplicable stuff or sheer nonsense or both. 

cant agree more!

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

However, while this Mountain might have been an AI glitch or a human glitch, it might also be none of the above and quite meaningful. 

yes it is. This chart was created by this autodidact Han or more likely Uighur from Urumci

Quote

 

Johannes M L Hausen Is this your own graph? 

Don't Know Nothing 不知道人 Yes, I made it myself. Due to the page size (and resolution), it is limited to this main framework.
Fyi - The framework is not mentioned in any ancient texts. It is only in the past few decades, people started discussing Taoism practices as such.

 

the 5 method division itself was made up by the modern chinese fantasists, gaining modest currency over the chinese interwebs . They explain the 'mountain' title as meaning 'the methods done in the mountains'

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Curious to hear from folks who have undertaken studying and practicing (and maybe teaching?) any of these methods.

recently i had to explain the paradigms behind fengshui and qimen to my student. nobody understands the paradigms.

 

 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

cant agree more!

yes it is. This chart was created by this autodidact Han or more likely Uighur from Urumci

the 5 method division itself was made up by the modern chinese fantasists, gaining modest currency over the chinese interwebs . They explain the 'mountain' title as meaning 'the methods done in the mountains'

recently i had to explain the paradigms behind fengshui and qimen to my student. nobody understands the paradigms.

 

 

 

I had my fair share of arguments with the author of this chart, who tends toward taoism-tinted new-ageism and an inflexibly dogmatic kind at that.  But I haven't spoken about things taoist proper here in years, nor heard anything of much consequence, so coming across this chart seemed like an easy way back into the subject.  And bingo -- now you're telling me you know qimen!  That's rare and precious!  So what is it that you know about the paradigm that nobody understands?  

 

As for "the methods done in the mountains," it's not historically wrong, taoists always escaped into the mountains in the course of many social upheavals and, especially, those directed against them, of which there were many.  And even earlier, in proto-taoist antiquity, the wu congregated on mount Wuashan, e.g., and Maoshan was also practiced in the mountains, and hermits yada yada, I even know one still living in a cave on mount Huashan.  But my interpretation is not too shabby either.     

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

And bingo -- now you're telling me you know qimen!  That's rare and precious!  So what is it that you know about the paradigm that nobody understands?  

A paradigm is an answer to the question: how does this thing work? So first thing to know about a paradigm ('the how and why")  is that it exists. People dont ask yourself that question.  E.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qimen_Dunjia this does not say how QM works exactly ? Read any QM manual, it goes through the maze of of putting together, the tables it does not say why?  Now when i explain any paradigm  two things happen 1. peeps dont understand it (because it is too simple, old dogs-new tricks) 2 peeps think they knew it all along  (because it is too simple, old dogs-new tricks).

In case of QM it works like this: there are two clocks: 1 the cosmic one 2 your personal one. When they are in sync good things happen to you, when out - bad ones. Simple?

[Taomeow]

40 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

A paradigm is an answer to the question: how does this thing work? So first thing to know about a paradigm ('the how and why")  is that it exists. People dont ask yourself that question.  E.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qimen_Dunjia this does not say how QM works exactly ? Read any QM manual, it goes through the maze of of putting together, the tables it does not say why?  Now when i explain any paradigm  two things happen 1. peeps dont understand it (because it is too simple, old dogs-new tricks) 2 peeps think they knew it all along  (because it is too simple, old dogs-new tricks).

In case of QM it works like this: there are two clocks: 1 the cosmic one 2 your personal one. When they are in sync good things happen to you, when out - bad ones. Simple?

 

Simple, until you get to the next question -- what does "in sync" practically mean? 

 

If you look at an analog clock, the surface is simple and synchronizing your analog watch with it is a piece of cake -- you just turn that little wheel on the side and move the handles to the desired position.  But take a little prying tool and open the clock and look at what's inside, what makes it tick...  and how...  that's where the difficult part begins.   And both the cosmic clock and the personal clock are way more complex than an analog watch.  

 

What a paradigm is is a very useful approach to a lot of things -- e.g. I remember learning something a professor called "the paradigm of the English verb" and all of a sudden, oh man, it was like a bolt of lightning! --  it all clicked into place, hey, I know how to use English now!  I know how it works!  And yet it was no replacement for actually accumulating a vocabulary of English verbs to use with that paradigm.  Knowing the inner workings of a thing is important...  but it doesn't suffice if you don't have all the actual parts it needs in order to work, nor how exactly they fit together, move together, move each other, and so on.  A curious kid disassembling and then assembling back a watch is invariably left with a couple of little cogs that seem to be extra and don't fit back in...  very small ones, tiny, unimportant...  but the watch doesn't work anymore.  (talking from experience, first my own and then my kids')   

 

 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Simple?

 

I don't see the synching (presuming we're referring to the same thing, I never know with you TT) arising if the acquired minds/egos are running the show, which would necessitate some level of inner work, IMO. 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

25 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I don't see the synching... arising if the acquired minds/egos are running the show, which would necessitate some level of inner work, IMO.

thats correct, that work is called '  timing not right - just sit tight', rein in your ego, shelter in place  - thats what syncing is . doing nothing - the simplest half of wuwei

 

54 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Simple, until you get to the next question -- what does "in sync" practically mean? 

great question. lets say going NW direction at 10 am is inauspicious. But thats where the market is and i am all out of  OJ! If i disregard and  go - i get out of sync; if i stay put and order home delivery - i get in sync.

54 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

And both the cosmic clock and the personal clock are way more complex than an analog watch.  

artificial things have many cogs. heaven and man just have one and the same: the 5 elements.

[Taomeow]

35 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

great question. lets say going NW direction at 10 am is inauspicious. But thats where the market is and i am all out of  OJ! If i disregard and  go - i get out of sync; if i stay put and order home delivery - i get in sync.

 

Right.  Not so easy to fix bazi and feng shui "desynchronizations," unfortunately, but "at least something" can always be done.  Or (often) refrained from doing.  The precision of qimen dunjia in the moment, right meow, is one possible way -- unfortunately, unlike with those other methods, I'm only a beginner with this one.  

 

41 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

artificial things have many cogs. heaven and man just have one and the same: the 5 elements.

 

Ah, no.  5 elements interacting with the 8 directions interacting with yin-yang interacting with heavenly stems and earthly branches including the hidden ones, with yi and its 64 configurations, with a whole bunch of Flying Stars and assorted destiny stars and constellations, with 12 "animals" aka earthly qi situations, interacting with 60 Grand Duke offices...  those ain't no simple cogs, alas.

 

"When complexity strikes, meaningful statements lose precision and precise statements lose meaning." -- Lotfi Zadeh

 

 

  

 

 

[forestofclarity]

55 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

doing nothing

 

Beyond the courser conditioning there is deeper conditioning (the 7th and 8th consciousness) that usually fool people into thinking they are acting from their deeper nature when they are acting from their deeper conditioning. Which is why in my limited view we have people claiming to be fully enlightened even though an unenlightened schmuck like me can still clearly see their various egoic processes and reactions click-clacking along on full display. Even further, presuming true intention emerges, on the return the various layers of mind will still want to muddle with it. 

 

I'd speculate this is why people may want to rely on external signs--- a fully synched person wouldn't need them. Even so, one would have to have the discrimination to prevent the acquired minds from meddling with the interpretations. Which would bring us back to the holographic view. 

 

 

[Taomeow]

10 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I'd speculate this is why people may want to rely on external signs--- a fully synched person wouldn't need them.

 

Wouldn't you agree that night and day, summer and winter, rain or shine, water or quicksand, infancy or maturity, animals coming or animals going, and the WHEN of all that  -- those are all external signs.  A fully synched person is primarily at home in her environment and acts or doesn't act in a timely fashion due to understanding its dynamics -- precisely by paying attention to its external signs.  Nothing mystical, just awareness and acting or not acting in a particular way at a particular time based on that.  And god only knows how expansive that awareness could have been in folks who could direct it to the stars above and the infinite variety of life below and Time and its changes.  "External signs" of taoism were born of that kind of awareness.    

[Sanity Check]

On 9/1/2024 at 4:34 PM, Taomeow said:

 

 

I don't see spiritual hygiene included.

 

Is spiritual hygiene a legit thing or is it merely viewed as superstition in modern era.

[johndoe2012]

9 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Beyond the courser conditioning there is deeper conditioning (the 7th and 8th consciousness) that usually fool people into thinking they are acting from their deeper nature when they are acting from their deeper conditioning. Which is why in my limited view we have people claiming to be fully enlightened even though an unenlightened schmuck like me can still clearly see their various egoic processes and reactions click-clacking along on full display. Even further, presuming true intention emerges, on the return the various layers of mind will still want to muddle with it. 

 

I'd speculate this is why people may want to rely on external signs--- a fully synched person wouldn't need them. Even so, one would have to have the discrimination to prevent the acquired minds from meddling with the interpretations. Which would bring us back to the holographic view. 

 

 

 

I sometimes get the feeling 'do this' without knowing where it comes from. 

 

Not ego I think, more a sense of things are changing, follow the impersonal flow of life. 

 

It can feel very energetic, like if I were to do the opposite, my whole body would go numb. 

Edited September 4 by johndoe2012

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Sanity Check said:

I don't see spiritual hygiene included.

 

Is spiritual hygiene a legit thing or is it merely viewed as superstition in modern era.

 

I'm not sure I know what the term refers to.  What does it mean to you?  

 

If I were to compile something like that list (I do think it's quite a bit arbitrary, mentioned it already), I would definitely include exorcism practices, which occupy one of the most prominent places in the Daozang, with hundreds of scriptures dedicated to the subject.  That might be close to the idea of spiritual hygiene, no?

Edited September 4 by Taomeow

[forestofclarity]

40 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

I sometimes get the feeling 'do this'

 

And how does it turn out when you follow it? 

 

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Wouldn't you agree  

 

Sure. I would also suggest that there is another form of knowing and development that is available as well at a certain point (timing is crucial here too, I suppose!). 

[johndoe2012]

30 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

And how does it turn out when you follow it? 

 

I have avoided big storms and one time when I didn't follow it, I lost a lot of money. 

[Gerard]

Spiritual hygiene?

 

I doubt Taoism, the Way of energy is too concerned about the moral aspect of practice since it views reality from an all encompassing force. Morality is not a strict set of rules which is more associated with Buddhism; it's all about living an harmonious, simple, generous and altruistic life with Nature and other human beings.

 

Taomeow's map is purely energetic derived from the primordial and metaphysical forces of yin and yang.

 

i personally wouldn't include a moral component because the Way doesn't work like that. In pure form reality is perfect; the human mind is imperfect and by that rule it messes up the natural flow of the Way (yin and yang in practice). 
 

 Note: maybe under Medicine or Martial Arts; since this aspect is needed to heal the energetic body from Qi blockages and yin & yang imbalances; therefore the physician will prescribe to the patient practices like celibacy and fasting to speed up the healing process. 
 

Also, I'd personally replace the "Martial Arts" term with INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT/ENERGY WORK; eg. Neijia, Qigong and meditation.

 

 

Edited September 4 by Gerard