Taoist methods

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

I have avoided big storms and one time when I didn't follow it, I lost a lot of money. 

Sounds like something to pay attention to.

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Sounds like something to pay attention to.

 

The storm intuition was just 'let's do this instead of that' 

 

The money situation was very direct. It came from strong knowing just as I woke up from sleep. Like somebody warned of me impending doom. 

 

These days I can also feel things happen before they actually do, that's just energy currents changing. Sometimes difficult in interpersonal relationships. 

 

Important here is not to take things personally, even when pain arises. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

On 02/09/2024 at 10:33 PM, Taoist Texts said:

they say to detect an image made by AI you gotta look for small incongruous details like 6 fingers on a hand. In this diagram the top branch says 'Mountain', wtf does mountain even mean here? And then you go...ahh nice try AI. but no cigar. the 6th finger gave you away.

From another interpretation 'mountain skills' refers to any kind of natural environements and how to live there without external support. 

 

From the same interpretation, taoist psychosomatic practices should at least lead to the minimum consuming of energy by the body/mind system for better results,  so going to live in the nature by oneself for some times is a good way to check the progess in real situation, but Qigong, Taichi, neidan etc may certainly not be enough without all the related knowlege and skills needed to live by oneself in the 'mountain'.  

 

Once again from the same interpretation, 'Mountain skills' always means something done by oneself to solve the problems of one's own life, so quite different than a passive treatment, healing, adjustment, repair etc done by someone else you pay to do it for you, but of course if someone is sick, depressed or is facing a water leak in her or his house  it would be foolish to not seek medical, psychological or plumbing support from the other category of 'medecine'.  The question is what should be the ratio between by oneself only and through external support since nobody can live completly detached and independently from the big network of Life. Another question is how to notice our own problems and what to do to solve them?   

 

The goals in our lineage are very low, higher spiritual goals are really too vague for us, we don't understand and we are so stupid that we only take Taoism as a traditional problem solving tool to live a better, more meaningful, valuable and sustainable life amongst our families and friends so that when the time comes we can go to a cave in the 'mountain' to 'close the door and fly away' without any regrets in our hearts.

 

 

 

 

[idquest]

On 02/09/2024 at 8:44 AM, Taomeow said:

Curious to hear from folks who have undertaken studying and practicing (and maybe teaching?) any of these methods.  I've learned and used some from each category.  Within each, I've familiarized myself with most, have given much time and effort to some, undertaken a cursory foray into others, and haven't touched still others.  Of course the list, like all lists, could be organized rather differently, expanded, contracted, and refurbished terminology wise.  (E.g., there exists a tradition of including most of what's on that map under the broader notion of feng shui, not feng shui as it is known in the West where self-appointed masters sort of rearrange chairs on the deck of the Titanic and call it feng shui, but as a fundamental taoist space-time science underlying all others.)  But at a glance, someone interested in taoism (supposedly) might get a very general idea of what it is that taoists actually do (as opposed to what its accidental tourists talk about.)  I always give this suggestion to those with budding taoist interests: pick something from an array of what taoists do and start doing it.  That's a foot in the door.  Limiting one's participation to thinking, reading, writing, talking "about" (and, yes, even "meditating" without a clear idea of "how," "what for" and other technicalities) is a foot jammed in the door that is being shut.

 

  

Interestingly enough, any one of the methods can be complete, the whole thing is holographic.  But to get the whole enchilada, this one thing should become all things to the practitioner.  One would have to go deeper and broader, higher and lower, faster and slower, engage expansive and concentrated thinking and no-thinking, throw everything and the kitchen sink at it.   

 

Nathan Brine referred to Wang Liping teaching exactly that to his senior foreign students right before Covid. If not for Covid, this curriculum would go deeper. I don't have information as to how it has been since then as China seems to be not very welcoming recently. The biggest take away from this for me were two ideas:

- neigong/neidan is just a starting point so sweating too much on it might not bring desired outcomes

- Everybody has their own path. While it is possible to train all five, such training will lack depth. But again, everybody choose themselves. 

[Nintendao]

interesting that Fulu is included on the mountain. Most popular forms of cultivation involve moving oneself further up the mountain, so to speak. Whereas the art of invoking gods is to work with those who have already taken to the skies, as it were.

 

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, Nintendao said:

interesting that Fulu is included on the mountain.

because in this case those are protective talismans against the evil mountain spirits

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

because in this case those are protective talismans against the evil mountain spirits

 

Interesting on two fronts. One is, mountain spirits potentially hint at having origins in animistic beliefs deep down in history.

Second it what symbols did the Daoists use in their talismans ? is there any decent literature on the talismans aspect of Daoism ?

[Giles]

11 hours ago, idquest said:

- neigong/neidan is just a starting point so sweating too much on it might not bring desired outcomes

 

Indeed. And in many cases it's an unnecessary waste of time that could be put to better uses, such as going for a nice walk in the countryside.

 

[forestofclarity]

On 9/3/2024 at 6:40 AM, Taomeow said:

I haven't spoken about things taoist proper

 

I completely understand why you wouldn't, but I wish that weren't the case, FWIW. 

 

23 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

These days I can also feel things

 

It seems to me what we cultivate, expands. 

[Nintendao]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

because in this case those are protective talismans against the evil mountain spirits

Maybe another important aspect of spiritual hygiene!

 

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Interesting on two fronts. One is, mountain spirits potentially hint at having origins in animistic beliefs deep down in history.

Second it what symbols did the Daoists use in their talismans ? is there any decent literature on the talismans aspect of Daoism ?

 

The Tao of Craft is a good one 

 

 

Edited September 5 by Nintendao

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Interesting on two fronts. One is, mountain spirits potentially hint at having origins in animistic beliefs deep down in history.

Second it what symbols did the Daoists use in their talismans ? is there any decent literature on the talismans aspect of Daoism ?

 

I like this book:

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

One is, mountain spirits potentially hint at having origins in animistic beliefs deep down in history.

to me its the other way around: spirits create beliefs 

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Second it what symbols did the Daoists use in their talismans ?

anything weaponized and awe inspiring like 'thunder' or 'humane wise great heavenly emperor' like below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_Ting_curse_charm#List_of_magic_incantations_found_on_Lei_Ting_curse_charms

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

is there any decent literature on the talismans aspect of Daoism ?

f course, see Reference at the link

[Taomeow]

My favorite.  This is the god of literature, Wenchang Wang (whose name literally means "king of culture and language"), whose talismanic invocations are used in their many forms to aid students in passing exams, creative folks in writing their books, artists and calligraphers in perfecting their art, and so on.  This particular depiction is the talismanic rendition of his name that forms his traditional image:  like all taoist deities and immortals, Wenchang is portrayed in possession of specific attributes (which make images recognizable -- e.g. Guanyin usually holds her vessel/vase, Li Tieguai leans on a crutch and carries a gourd, and so on).  In this case, it's the calligraphy brush (pointing at the Big dipper, no less) and Wenchang's usual means of transportation across the troubled waters of culture, an ao 鰲 -- sea turtle (sometimes a dragon-carp) on which he stands.

  

[Apech]

@Taomeow and @Taoist Texts

 

In terms of divinatory methods ... is there a distinction between passive enquiry (such as what will happen if ...)/ and auspicious days and so on and active enquiry such as 'how can I best achieve this goal' or even more 'oh spirits make it so!' such as actually creating the conditions for something to happen?

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

In terms of divinatory methods ... is there a distinction

yes a large one vis a vis how the universe works, if there is a god or not

3 hours ago, Apech said:

is there a distinction between passive enquiry (such as what will happen if ...)/ and auspicious days

this one is just like an ant trapped in a cuckoo clock, calculating when and how the cogwheels turn so as to escape between them to safety. there is no benevolent clock maker or a clock minder. the cosmic clock turns eternally by itself. indifferently but predictably. the system can be navigated regardless of your sin or merit.

3 hours ago, Apech said:

active enquiry such as 'how can I best achieve this goal' or even more 'oh spirits make it so!' such as actually creating the conditions for something to happen?

 

this one is not really a divination but a prayer to a unknowable deity who manages the cosmos as he sees fit, unpredictably. his attention must be earned first.

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

@Taomeow and @Taoist Texts

 

In terms of divinatory methods ... is there a distinction between passive enquiry (such as what will happen if ...)/ and auspicious days and so on and active enquiry such as 'how can I best achieve this goal' or even more 'oh spirits make it so!' such as actually creating the conditions for something to happen?

 

 

 

Good questions, thanks for asking! 

 

I use all of them on occasion, depending on the occasion.  "What will happen if" -- only in order to "pre-divine," so to speak, if the divination or a ritual is appropriate or useful right now, for this particular situation.  What will happen if I ask the I Ching about this and that right now, or if I address the deity of choice with such and such petition?  It's a simple one, like a toss of the coins, only instead of coins I have jiaobei or moon blocks, two of them, which can land on the yin side or the yang side when you toss them.  A yin and a yang mean yes.  A yang and a yang mean no.  A yin and a yin mean gods are laughing at your endeavor.  

 

"Auspicious days and so on" -- that's not divination, that's calculation.  I pay attention to auspicious or inauspicious days (sometimes hours too, for an important endeavor).  The San Niang or Three Killings days I know by heart, so a quick look at the sun-to-moon calendar conversion calculator tells me when those are happening, and I avoid important stuff on those days if at all possible.  The yearly Almanac that goes into more detail -- that's either a physical copy I've bought some years, or just an online consult.  (I used to be able to calculate those things by hand, but it's been years since I last tried...  it's the same thing as with kids who use calculators and forget -- or never master to begin with -- the multiplication table and the simple arithmetical operations and can't read an analog clock...  but it does save a ton of time  ).  Of course going in depth would yield much better results -- there's always a day of the year, an hour of that day to be precise, when if you buy a lottery ticket (you personally, with your bazi chart, not everybody's) you are guaranteed to win that lottery.  But calculating it would take so much time and effort (and, for starters, study and comprehension) that you might be better off investing that time and effort into something more mundane.

 

"How can I best achieve this goal" -- that's close to how I formulate my I Ching inquiries: "I divine my best course of action toward such and such outcome" which I desire, or "my best course of action toward avoiding such and such outcome" I am wary of.  

 

The "oh spirits make it so" approach -- that's for the formal taoist ritual, but I don't address impersonal "spirits," I always address my request to a specific deity.  In taoism deities are specialists, not universalists.  (There's universalists too of course, tending to the whole universe, but they will not get involved in the personal affairs of individual humans except maybe in exceptional situations with universal repercussions -- if then.)

 

Also, sometimes the ritual is not about a request, prayer, or any kind of favor seeking, just for veneration and admiration.  E.g. I sometimes make offerings to the goddess of the ocean, Mazu, just because I admire her.      

 

   

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes a large one vis a vis how the universe works, if there is a god or not

this one is just like an ant trapped in a cuckoo clock, calculating when and how the cogwheels turn so as to escape between them to safety. there is no benevolent clock maker or a clock minder. the cosmic clock turns eternally by itself. indifferently but predictably. the system can be navigated regardless of your sin or merit.

this one is not really a divination but a prayer to a unknowable deity who manages the cosmos as he sees fit, unpredictably. his attention must be earned first.

Thank you for your grim bleakness 😀

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Thank you for your grim bleakness 😀

welcome to reality. yet for me, this POV is empowering

surely you have come across it before

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

welcome to reality. yet for me, this POV is empowering

surely you have come across it before

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus

 

Henley was 26 when he wrote that inspiring and courageous poem. 

I remember being at least as cocky at that age too.  (Although girls mature a bit sooner, so I wrote a poem with my first doubts in the Invictus doctrine at 25.)  

 

We have a saying that translates, verbatim, "until the roasted rooster pecks" -- meaning, until fate really shows what it's capable of.

  

Yes, roasted roosters don't peck -- under normal circumstances.  It's just that no one is guaranteed that their circumstances will always be normal, nor that under grossly abnormal ones they will remain true to their normal-circumstances behavior, outlook, resolve, or level of success maintaining same.

 

"I am the master of my fate,

I am the captain of my soul."

 

As for me, being a mossy traditionalist, I am the master of 40% of my fate, and the captain of about 1/3 of my shen.  

 

(And I believe that's a helluva lot more than I would be the master of if I simply mistook whatever conditioning I've been subjected to for free will, fate, god's will, or the imperatives of the soul.  I wonder if it makes me more fatalistic or less fatalistic than the ant in the cogweels of the cuckoo clock.)    

 

Edited September 6 by Taomeow

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Henley was 26 when he wrote that inspiring and courageous poem. 

yes that's when he figured out what is the only thing that can make a man an Invictus: the same thing that makes the cosmic clock tick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes that's when he figured out what is the only thing that can make a man an Invictus: the same thing that makes the cosmic clock tick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

 

I was specifically looking for the English translation of Invincible Sun, a novel by one of the most important and most quirky contemporary authors a number of whose books did get translated into English (don't know how well though), Victor Pelevin, to recommend to you.   It came out in 2020 and, alas, at 700 pages, no one has undertaken the feat yet.  But I'll be sure to let you know if someone does.  It's phantasmagoric (like most of his stuff) and fun and no belief is ever safe in his renditions (except maybe some extremist Buddhism which he seems to favor.)   

[Chang dao ling]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:04 AM, Taomeow said:

Nice. But learning all these things required very strong determination most importantly a good teacher 

[Thrice Daily]

On 03/09/2024 at 6:41 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

great question. lets say going NW direction at 10 am is inauspicious. But thats where the market is and i am all out of  OJ! 

What’s your take on Kua numbers Taoist Text? 
 

Do you think they are useful as a calculation (for 4 auspicious 4 inauspicious directions generally).

 

I used them for years, and carried a compass to always be aware of which direction I was facing. It was pretty easy and I wasn’t obsessive about it. It just became a habit.

 

I felt like there may be a placebo aspect to it, didn’t mind though. It seems empowering and helpful as a practice to this day, to face 4 for specific purposes or insights. 
 

Also do you know of good nine flying star resource? I think it’s called that. I had access to it on a computer and lost it. Each year had an element with it. Do you know about it?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

What’s your take on Kua numbers Taoist Text? 
 

Do you think they are useful as a calculation (for 4 auspicious 4 inauspicious directions generally).

the directions per se are indifferent. it is what you do in that direction either clashes with it or does not. I personally dont find any geomancy useful but to everyone his own.

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Also do you know of good nine flying star resource?

not really since i dont do any fengshui, i just know how it works. but this seems to be ok https://imperialharvest.com/blog/9-flying-stars/

[心神 ~]

On 9/18/2024 at 10:40 AM, Thrice Daily said:

 

Also do you know of good nine flying star resource? I think it’s called that. I had access to it on a computer and lost it. Each year had an element with it. Do you know about it?

 

 

Flying Star Feng Shui by Stephen Skinner