What is fajin, 發勁?

[ChiDragon]

@forestofclaritysaid:

"{Interestingly, I've been "fajined" by at least two people. One felt very physical, both to me and the person performing it. It felt like the person was using leverage and muscular elasticity to "snap" me back into the wall. Earl Grey posted a video some years ago and it was just like that. This person learned it outside of Dwai's school. 

 

The other felt very energetic, again to both giver and receiver. This one felt like a ball expanding and propelling me up and back into the air (the technique was press, which I thought was a BS move). I do think there is a muscular/physical leverage type of fajin, but there is also something completely different. This person was within Dwai's school. 

 

I imagine that a well developed practitioner would be able to do both, but it is theoretical to me since I've not really developed much in CIMA past some basic body connecting/leverage using. }"

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First of all, I would like thank forestofclarity for seriously interested in the subtlety of fajin 發勁 with enthusiasm. BTW I like your nickname. I sensed the aroma of intellectual and wisdom in it.

 Fajin means exerting(發) an internal force(勁). It is a special technique performed by Taiji practitioners. Fajin, 發勁, is not something that can be learnt from someone or in a seminar. Jin, 勁 has to be acquired from the diligent practice of Taiji for years, in order, to develop in the muscles. The regular muscle strength is called li(力) before the Jin was developed in the body muscles. What Taiji does is to enhance the li to become jin, so to speak. Thus jin(勁) is much more immense than li(力). In western term, I think we can related as muscle tone.

To fajin is not just simply raise the hands to push somebody. It takes a special technique to execute jin only understood by the experienced practitioner. I will keep it as a mystery for now. It was explained how to do it in some videos if one really pay close attention to it.

I am glad to answer any question if it is needed to be asked. You are welcome!

How does jin developed in the muscle can be explained scientifically. It has something to do with the cell respiration. However, most people I talked to don't care how Taiji works but only care that it works.

Edited September 3 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

To fajin is not just simply raise the hands to push somebody. It takes a special technique to execute jin only understood by the experienced practitioner. I will keep it as a mystery for now. It was explained how to do it in some videos if one really pay close attention to it.

Do you move your awareness out through the blade when you do your saber form?

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, dwai said:

Do you move your awareness out through the blade when you do your saber form?

 

Certainly, awareness is very important in handling weapon in Taiji. Otherwise, I wouldn't know where the blade is going to strike or landed on or where to go for the next move. That is why diligent practice of Taijiquan is a prerequisite before practicing any weapons. The body has to be conditioned to handle the weapons. It is because handling a weapon requires good muscle tone to execute each move. There are many focus points from the arm to the blade. In order to move the blade from start til the end, smoothly, the focus point change constantly.

The focus points on the blade are in the handle, the middle of the blade, and the tip of the blade. The focus points on the arm are the shoulder, forearm and the wrist. Finally, the waist is the final pivot point to execute the strike with maximum force. However, before all these taken place, the bow stand must be in the right position for balance and grounding. The final execution is by a little twist of the wrist to move the blade to the target.

If I want to do a slice cut, I will focus on the handle by drawing it back to the rear with the blade at 45 degree with the tip pointing upward. If I want to do a chop, I would focus in the middle of the blade with sharp edge pointing downward and landed horizontally.
If I want to a stab or a slice someone's throat, I would focus on the tip of the blade. For a maximum force of execution to go for the throat, I will hold the the blade in the air with my right hand. My wrist will hold in one position while the arm is moving toward the target. At the point where is about to strike, I will give a little twist with the wrist while turning my waist.

I think this is what you mean by move the awareness out through the blade.

In order to control the direction of the blade, it is very important to have a very strong wrist. The arm must flow with the movements of the sabre. Otherwise, the arm will be fatigue very quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAHRqOtJDQ

 

Edited September 3 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

What I was asking is whether your intention/yi projects through and out of the blade. I’ve done the staff and sword (Jian) forms. With the jian it is most easily evident - the blade should vibrate when we do this projection. With the staff it is a bit harder,  but it helps to project longer distance. 
 

In the system I practice, the field is very important. To expand the field it requires practicing to extend the Yi beyond the “weapon.” Of course, each weapon is also training one of the five elements. Staff trains wood, sword trains water, spear trains fire, Sabre trains metal, and empty hand trains earth. 

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Certainly, awareness is very important in handling weapon in Taiji. …

That all makes perfect sense. A lot of practice went into this, kudos to you.

 

Edited September 3 by Cobie

[Cobie]

removed. whatever.  Cobie has left the thread. 

Edited September 3 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

問非所答

答非所問

有意思吗？

[Cobie]

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

問非所答

答非所問

有意思吗？

有意思. 真的

 

 

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

What I was asking is whether your intention/yi projects through and out of the blade.

I belive that awareness is different from intention. It wasn't clear to me when you ask the question. However, every move of a weapon has an intention. Otherwise, there is no purpose to make the move.

 

Since the OP is about fajin, we can talk about how the Jin was projected to the weapon.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I belive that awareness is different from intention. It wasn't clear to me when you ask the question. However, every move of a weapon has an intention. Otherwise, there is no purpose to make the move.

 

Since the OP is about fajin, we can talk about how the Jin was projected to the weapon.

Can we talk about how Jin is applied without weapons first?

Maybe you can show a demo of how you apply jin?

[ChiDragon]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

Maybe you can show a demo of how you apply jin?

I think we should understand what fajin is all about first before we are jumping the gun. We can talk about how to execute fajin first. It would be more meaningful when the demo was done. Don't you think so?

Edited September 3 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I think we should understand what fajin is all about first before we are jumping the gun. We can talk about how to execute fajin first. It would be more meaningful when the demo was done. Don't you think so?

Okay, that sounds good. Can you explain the mechanics of Fajin from your perspective?

I can respond with my experience/understanding of it in response to yours. We can see where there might be disagreements (either in the phenomenology or the terminology) and where there is common ground. 

 

P.S. What would be valuable to me is if you could express it in your own words without quoting text. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

We can see where there might be disagreements (either in the phenomenology or the terminology) and where there is common ground. 

I think discrepancy is a better choice of word. The phenomenology or the terminology might be differ in name but came from the same origin. I am sure that there is a common ground. 

Edited September 3 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I think discrepancy is a better choice of word.

Okay, discrepancy it is.  

[Cobie]

 

55 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… might be differ in name but came from the same origin. …

 

DDJ Ch. 1: 此兩者同出而異名 (see, I read your translations).

 

 

Edited September 3 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

 

What would be valuable to me is if you could express it in your own words without quoting text

Certainly, I will do so. I always like to express my view with my own words. It is not my nature to quote somebody else's text and pretend I knew it all and all others are wrong. I like to tell what it is other than say it is not without an good explanation.

Now, we got this out of the way and start from here.

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Can you explain the mechanics of Fajin from your perspective?

Fajin is an ability to exert the intern force from a Taiji body. The reason I said Taiji body is because that Jin was acquired from the practice of Taiji or Taijiquan. BTW Taiji is short for Tiajiquan. 

Since you said Taiji has nothing to do in developing the internal strength of the muscles, I would like to hear your view why Taiji movements are practiced so slow?  There was a big discrepancy in our view from the other thread.  I would like to have this cleared up if we can. So, your input is very important to discussion. May I please hear it from you?

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Fajin is an ability to exert the intern force from a Taiji body. The reason I said Taiji body is because that Jin was acquired from the practice of Taiji or Taijiquan. BTW Taiji is short for Tiajiquan. 

ok  - Jin *can be* be generated from the practice of Taiji. Agreed. 

 

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Since you said Taiji has nothing to do in developing the internal strength of the muscles, I would like to hear your view why Taiji movements are practiced so slow?  There was a big discrepancy in our view from the other thread.  I would like to have this cleared up if we can. So, your input is very important to discussion. May I please hear it from you?

Sure, but while we're at it, let us also clear up what you mean by "internal strength of the muscles." Do you mean to say that muscles have both external and internal strength and that the two are somehow different from each other?

 

For beginners, Taiji is done slowly because -

1. Slow movements help us better organize the body's structure, which in turn helps us minimize the amount of muscular effort utilized by the body. 
2. By minimizing the muscular effort required to do the movements, we become aware of where we hold body tension that is detrimental to smooth proprioception.
3. Over time, as we focus on releasing the tensions (such as unnecessary muscular tension), these start to release (so there is a general relaxation of the body)
4. As the body relaxes, our awareness of the whole body becomes better
5. As our awareness of the entire body improves, the movements become more integrated. 
6. At this stage, we can coordinate the movements outlined in the taiji forms as one unit. When we can move the entire body mass as one unit and apply it (when one part moves, all parts move), we can use the body's momentum (P = mv).  This is a beginner-level skill and is not Jin.

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

let us also clear up what you mean by "internal strength of the muscles." Do you mean to say that muscles have both external and internal strength and that the two are somehow different from each other?

The trem "internal strength, 內力" was often used by the Chinese kung fu practitioners as the body strength acquired from practice. In other words, internal strength Is acquired from the practice of neigong(內功)。

 

There is no such thing as external strength.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

This is a beginner-level skill and is not Jin.

Yes, it was understood that is how to practice taiji for beginners. However, as it was practiced progressively for a long time and done properly, the breathing will kick in. At higher level, the taiji practitioner should be able to perform having the breath coordinates with the movement and the movement coordinates with the breathing. Without realising, the Jin is automatically developed in the muscles. Hence, nobody is aware that was what took place inside the body.

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The trem "internal strength, 內力" was often used by the Chinese kung fu practitioners as the body strength acquired from practice. In other words, internal strength Is acquired from the practice of neigong(內功)。

 

There is no such thing as external strength.

So in other words, muscular strength is internal and it comes from neigong? 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, it was understood that is how to practice taiji for beginners. However, as it was practiced progressively for a long time and done properly, the breathing will kick in. At higher level, the taiji practitioner should be able to perform having the breath coordinates with the movement and the movement coordinates with the breathing. Without realising, the Jin is automatically developed in the muscles. Hence, nobody is aware that was what took place inside the body.

Ok, here is where it gets interesting. Breathing is important of course. But there are a few more steps involved (intermediate level) -

 

1. Practitioner learns how to open the joints and hang the flesh off the bones - this needs to be coordinated with the breath. 
2. as they do this, an internal stretch happens. The fascial web within the body gets unified and fully activated. This stretching is needed to begin to tap into the mechanical part of Jin. The fascial web acts like a trampoline of sorts - once fully integrated, it is able to both receive incoming force and immediately return it back (newton’s 3rd law). This is also not really Jin yet.
3. With this fascial web reunification/activation, another phenomenon should start to occur. Now that (after beginner level) full body relaxation has happened, and the coordination of mindful breath work with the opening and stretching of the joints, an internal charge starts to develop and flow through the fascia. 
4. the practitioner by now should have also started doing posture training (holding a posture for several minutes - even 30-45 minutes at a time). The most basic is the wuji posture. As the correct body alignment and release occurs, a flow starts from the (usually from the upper) extremities of the body towards the lower abdomen. This sensation of flow is unlike any other one would have likely encountered until this point. It feels fluid and a filling starts to happen in the lower abdominal cavity. The practitioner maintains their attention in this area until a definitive shape starts to appear - spherical. This goes from the size of a cantaloupe to that of a little golf ball with time.
5. after sometime, this pouring/filling sensation starts to overflow. Like when a bucket is full but the water keeps flowing - this sensation starts to flow back to the extremities (basically starting to flow down specific pathways throughout the fascial web).
6. if the practitioner keeps going at it, the filling sensation will permeate the entire body, and a sense of fullness starts to develop. The tissues in the body can start to become more “puffed up” (like a balloon inflating under the skin). This can feel like an unbroken layer of silk under the skin. 
7. All this while, the practitioner is also continuing to do the forms, and now the forms start to come alive.
8. when the practitioner moves through their forms, now there is a different kind of flow and sensation happening. There are things one is supposed to do with the mind and awareness during the forms, that cause certain effects to occur. This is the beginning of Jin.

Along with these above steps the practitioner should have also started to work with what we call in our system the “Taiji ball”. This is generated first between the palms. With time, this becomes a palpable and tangible sensation (like one is holding a physical ball). This ball training is coordinated with the breath. All of the Taiji forms involve holding this ball, rolling it, turning it, twisting it, splitting it, and so on. This is what allows for the practitioner’s awareness to expand beyond their own body and outward into the environment. They start to develop a sense of an energetic field that encompasses them - initially 1-3’ all around them and gradually expanding to several feet. This is when we get to the advanced levels. 

through all these steps, one thing is very clear - muscular strength needs to be eschewed. Why? Because muscular activation and strength block the proper integration of the fascial web, and prevent the practitioner’s mind from fully becoming aware of their internal structures. 
 

P.S, as one starts the advanced level work, the breath needs to be let go of. Once the 8 energies and 5 directions are grasped, the coordination of the breath actually gets in the way. The breath was only a tool to get the energy - aka qi (that flowing sensation felt in the intermediate level) to integrate with the mind (yi). Once the two are properly connected, the breath coordination can be dropped. 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

So in other words, muscular strength is internal and it comes from neigong? 

Yes, to be exact, the internal muscular strength was resulted from the practice of neigong. Be definition, anything that has an internal effect enhancing the strength of the body is considered neigong, 內功.

 

If a practitioner can demonstrate something out of the ordinary with tremendous power, it can be said that the practitioner has lots of neigong. Also, one could say that the neigong of the practitioner is tremendous.

 

Jin(勁) was acquired from practicing Taiji, hence, Taiji is considered as a form of neigong.

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, to be exact, the internal muscular strength was resulted from the practice of neigong. Be definition, anything that has an internal effect enhancing the strength of the body is considered neigong, 內功.

 

If a practitioner can demonstrate something out of the ordinary with tremendous power, it can be said that the practitioner has lots of neigong. Also, one could say that the neigong of the practitioner is tremendous.

 

Jin(勁) was acquired from practicing Taiji, hence, Taiji is considered as a form of neigong.

So, a weightlifter who can lift 500 lbs is a neigong expert?

[ChiDragon]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

So, a weightlifter who can lift 500 lbs is a neigong expert?

No, weightlifer is not a neigong expert but a waigong(外功) expert. 

Waigong(外功) is an external practice. It is becouse the practitioner uses external instrument to train the muscles. Therefore, it was not considered as neigong. Neigong practice, initially, doesn't use any external instrument to begin with.

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon