What is fajin, 發勁?

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Ok, here is where it gets interesting. Breathing is important of course. But there are a few more steps involved (intermediate level) -

 

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

P.S, as one starts the advanced level work, the breath needs to be let go of. Once the 8 energies and 5 directions are grasped, the coordination of the breath actually gets in the way. The breath was only a tool to get the energy - aka qi (that flowing sensation felt in the intermediate level) to integrate with the mind (yi). Once the two are properly connected, the breath coordination can be dropped. 

I read you. First of all, please accept my apology, in case, my foregoing comments might be causing a little discomfort to you. 

I've gathered that the explanation here is rather traditional and fictional. I had read some of the ideas from the martial arts fictional novels throughout my life. Most kids in Hong Kong, at the time I was a kid also, believed the contents in those stories. One day, I heard it on the news, a boy jumped off the building from the second floor. He believed that he can flight like the people in the movies make from those novels.

From kid to adulthood, I was still skeptical about those fictional stories. After college, I become an engineer with a job sitting in the office eight hours a day. I felt that there was a need for me to do some exercises. A colleague introduced me to his Taiji class. So, I practiced day by day. I feel that my body and muscle strength had increased tremendously and my breathing was deep. When I was a teenage, my breath was shallow and weak. I cannot even finish one sentence without taken another breath. Can't even sing a song if I wanted to. After years of Taji practice, I can use my diaphragm to sing like a champ.

To make the story short. Since my muscle strength was increased tremendously, I started wondering what was happening inside my body from the practice of Taiji. Surprisingly, I have discovered breathing is the key factor that had changed my physical body biologically. Fortunately, it can be explained with modern science that I would like to share with everyone.
 

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

I read you. First of all, please accept my apology, in case, my foregoing comments might be causing a little discomfort to you. 

Of course - we’re friends having a good exchange here  

Quote

I've gathered that the explanation here is rather traditional and fictional. I had read some of the ideas from the martial arts fictional novels throughout my life. Most kids in Hong Kong, at the time I was a kid also, believed the contents in those stories. One day, I heard it on the news, a boy jumped off the building from the second floor. He believed that he can flight like the people in the movies make from those novels.

From kid to adulthood, I was still skeptical about those fictional stories.

So if you don’t understand it or have not experienced it, it is fictional?  
what I wrote is directly from my own experiences - with my teacher, my kungfu brothers. You seem to be extrapolating what I wrote with your own fictional ideas from your childhood. 

Quote

After college, I become an engineer with a job sitting in the office eight hours a day. I felt that there was a need for me to do some exercises. A colleague introduced me to his Taiji class. So, I practiced day by day. I feel that my body and muscle strength had increased tremendously and my breathing was deep. When I was a teenage, my breath was shallow and weak. I cannot even finish one sentence without taken another breath. Can't even sing a song if I wanted to. After years of Taji practice, I can use my diaphragm to sing like a champ.

That is excellent. If your muscle strength has increased you should be able to lift heavy weights etc? 

Quote

To make the story short. Since my muscle strength was increased tremendously, I started wondering what was happening inside my body from the practice of Taiji. Surprisingly, I have discovered breathing is the key factor that had changed my physical body biologically. Fortunately, it can be explained with modern science that I would like to share with everyone.
 

Yes of course proper breathing is very important - but at a certain point how one is breathing becomes irrelevant in Taiji fajin. And by breathing I mean specific inhalation and exhalation associated with the expression of Jin. If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 
 

Spoiler

Here I’ve shared some examples of how we don’t need to worry about the breath to do fajin 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

No, weightlifer is not a neigong expert but a waigong(外功) expert. 

Waigong(外功) is an external practice. It is becouse the practitioner uses external instrument to train the muscles. Therefore, it was not considered as neigong. Neigong practice, initially, doesn't use any external instrument to begin with

I think you’re missing the point I’m making. If a “waigong” develops their muscular strength for a different effect than a “neigong” person, are they training different muscles or the same muscles?
 

By your explanation, a neigong person should be able to lift heavy weights  just like the waigong person if they are developing muscular strength (though by different means). 

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think you’re missing the point I’m making. If a “waigong” develops their muscular strength for a different effect than a “neigong” person, are they training different muscles or the same muscles?
 

The thing about neigong is the practice does not change the shape of the muscle as oppose to waigong. Waigong tends to shorten the muscles and change the shape of the muscles. Besides, weightlifting makes a male person impotent. 

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

By your explanation, a neigong person should be able to lift heavy weights  just like the waigong person if they are developing muscular strength (though by different means). 

That is exactly what I meant.
That is what was happening to me in my case.

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The thing about neigong is the practice does not change the shape of the muscle as oppose to waigong. Waigong tends to shorten the muscles and change the shape of the muscles.

I see. 

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Besides, weightlifting makes a male person impotent. 

That's such a silly thing to say  

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

That is exactly what I meant.
That is what was happening to me in my case.

Very interesting. How much percentage of your body weight can you lift?

[dwai]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, to be exact, the internal muscular strength was resulted from the practice of neigong. Be definition, anything that has an internal effect enhancing the strength of the body is considered neigong, 內功.

 

If a practitioner can demonstrate something out of the ordinary with tremendous power, it can be said that the practitioner has lots of neigong. Also, one could say that the neigong of the practitioner is tremendous.

 

Jin(勁) was acquired from practicing Taiji, hence, Taiji is considered as a form of neigong.

Okay, let's hear your explanation for fajin now. I've shared a lot from my perspective. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power? Do their muscles become tremendously strong? Is that what you think is jin? Just really strong muscles?

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Very interesting. How much percentage of your body weight can you lift?

Noramlly, a person can handle half of the body weight with no problem. I am not a very big man but short. I weight 123 pounds. However, I can handle a bag of 100 pound rice. 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Noramlly, a person can handle half of the body weight with no problem. I am not a very big man but short. I weight 123 pounds. However, I can handle a bag of 100 pound rice. 

Like just lifting it one time or you can pick it up and walk around with it for several minutes? 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Like just lifting it one time or you can pick it up and walk around with it for several minutes? 

I took it from my car that was parked on the street, went through the driveway, living room, then placed it in the kitchen.

[ChiDragon]

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

So if you don’t understand it or have not experienced it, it is fictional?  
what I wrote is directly from my own experiences - with my teacher, my kungfu brothers. You seem to be extrapolating what I wrote with your own fictional ideas from your childhood. 

Sorry, that was not intentional to have it came out that way. I will come to my own explanation with my own experience, as I have indicated in the above post, in a more scientific approach.
 

 

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is excellent. If your muscle strength has increased you should be able to lift heavy weights etc? 

Yes, let's say I could lift a little more than I could before the practice of Taiji. However, there is a limitation to everything.

 

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes of course proper breathing is very important - but at a certain point how one is breathing becomes irrelevant in Taiji fajin. And by breathing I mean specific inhalation and exhalation associated with the expression of Jin. If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

Okay, we have a big discrepancy on the idea about breathing. It seems our idea is completely opposite on this one. We can only exchange idea about breathing with our own experiences and understanding.

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

@dwai don’t know how old you are. But definitely CD is a marvel, he is over 70.

 

53 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I took it from my car that was parked on the street, went through the driveway, living room, then placed it in the kitchen.

Lol, that would have killed me instantly.  
I’m about the same age, some people I know my age can’t even walk as long as the duration of your videos, and need one of these for shopping. 

(not me I hasten to add) 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Okay, let's hear your explanation for fajin now. I've shared a lot from my perspective. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power? Do their muscles become tremendously strong? Is that what you think is jin? Just really strong muscles?

Thank you very much! I am glad that you are interested. So, I finally have someone to talk to and get this out of my chest for a long time.

Okay! You are throwing so many question to me all at once.  I can only address them one post at a time to avoid any misleading.
1. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power?
2. Do their muscles become tremendously strong?
3. Is that what you think is jin?
4. Just really strong muscles?

For now, I can answer questions 2 and 4 and get it out the way first. However, questions 1 and 3 require lots of explanation and has to be done with the help of some scientific knowledge. We must investigate what was taken place in the muscle during contraction.

No, my muscles are not so strong. However, it becomes strong with a tremendous power, only and only, when I fajin. It is by the execution of fajin, at that instant, gives me the tremendous power to perform a difficult task. The key factor has to do with abdominal breathing. You will see what I meant in the next few posts!

Edited September 4 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

@dwai don’t know how old you are. But definitely CD is a marvel, he is over 70.

I’m 49. Indeed, CD’s physical fitness is impressive. 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power?

Let's start with a regular person with no Taiji practice. The person just has the regular muscle strength. One might ask, where and how the energy was  produce in the muscles? Well, the energy was released by the tiny cells called mitochondria resided inside the muscles cells. However, the more mitochondria in the muscle cells, the more energy that can be produced.

 

Before looking into how the energy was produced. Let's investigate how to increase the number of mitochondria in the muscle cells. The number of mitochondria in the body cells can be reproduced by exercising the muscles. The exercise on the muscles can be done constantly with a slight contraction.

 

If the the body sees that a particular muscle was more active than normal, then, it increase the numbers of mitochondria in the muscle cells. Since the quantity of  mitochondria has been increased, the more energy that can be released by the muscles. Hence, the immense muscle strength may be referred as Jin. In conclusion, Taji fits the requirement of the exercise. It is because Taji was done from slow to modest speed. However, it would have no effect if it was done beyond the modest speed.

 

I hope that make sense.

Edited September 5 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Let's start with a regular person with no Taiji practice. The person just has the regular muscle strength. One might ask, where and how the energy was  produce in the muscles? Well, the energy was released by the tiny cells called mitochondria resided inside the muscles cells. However, the more mitochondria in the muscle cells, the more energy that can be produced.

 

Before looking into how the energy was produced. Let's investigate how to increase the number of mitochondria in the muscle cells. The number of mitochondria in the body cells can be reproduced by exercising the muscles. The exercise on the muscles can be done constantly with a slight contraction.

 

If the the body sees that a particular muscle was more active than normal, then, it increase the numbers of mitochondria in the muscle cells. Since the quantity of  mitochondria has been increased, the more energy that can be released by the muscles. Hence, the immense muscle strength may be referred as Jin. In conclusion, Taji fits the requirement of the exercise. It is because Taji was done from slow to modest speed. However, it would have no effect if it was done beyond the modest speed.

 

I hope that make sense.

 

Isn't there a logical fallacy in your theory? By your logic, the weightlifter should have greater mitochondrial density and jin. Even if we consider the slow to moderate speed part, strength training is usually done at slow speeds for the best effect. 

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Isn't there a logical fallacy in your theory? By your logic, the weightlifter should have greater mitochondrial density and jin. Even if we consider the slow to moderate speed part, strength training is usually done at slow speeds for the best effect. 

I had investigated and verified that weightlifting doesn't have the same effect as in Taiji practice. It was because the weight was applied to the muscles will consume all of the muscle energy.

PS I should have pointed out that, in Taiji, the muscles are required to be relaxed. The energy dissipated are very low and there are plenty of energy left for the muscle to consume. In weightlifting, the muscles are tightened which dissipate lots energy by depleting all the oxygen from breathing. When under the condition of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) the mitochondria can no longer convert the glucose to energy. The glucose become lactate. Lactate will cause muscle pain and fatigue. Hence, there are no more energy left for the muscle cells to reproduce more mitochondria.

Edited September 5 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I had investigated and verified that weightlifting doesn't have the same effect as in Taiji practice. It was because the weight was applied to the muscles will consume all of the muscle energ

Did you verify experimentally? Very curious to learn about your test methodology 

[dwai]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

in Taiji, the muscles are required to be relaxed. The energy dissipated are very low and there are plenty of energy left for the muscle to consume. In weightlifting, the muscles are tightened which dissipate lots energy by depleting all the oxygen from breathing. When under the condition of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) the mitochondria can no longer convert the glucose to energy. The glucose become lactate. Lactate will cause muscle pain and fatigue. Hence, there are no more energy left for the muscle cells to reproduce more mitochondria.

There are research studies out there which claim that resistance strength training in fact increases mitochondrial density and muscular strength.  While hypertrophy does outpace mitochondrial density,  it doesn’t mean it will diminish overall mitochondrial density, but rather increase it. 

 * Mitochondrial function improves: Research shows resistance training boosts mitochondrial enzymes and respiratory capacity, leading to better energy production and muscle endurance.
 * Total mitochondrial content may increase: Some studies suggest that long-term resistance training can lead to increased total mitochondrial content in muscles, though more research is needed.

Impact on muscle strength:
 * Improved energy production: Enhanced mitochondrial function means more energy available for muscle contractions, contributing to increased strength.
 * Delayed fatigue: Better energy production also delays fatigue, allowing for longer and more intense workouts, further promoting strength gains.
 * Hypertrophy: While density may decrease, the total number of mitochondria likely increases with muscle growth, supporting overall muscle strength.

I’m just sharing the above to offer a counterpoint to your hypothesis. Meaning it is not convincing to me (fwiw). 
 

Based on my experience, taiji Jin is not really a product of muscular action at all - but something completely different altogether. The muscular structure is passive when jin is expressed - it only serves the purpose of maintaining skeletal structure.

 

One aspect of developing Jin is to condense the qi into the bone marrow - which is what is done in the style of Taiji I practice. There is a role of breath too, but mainly it is the Yi that drives this. 

 

But other martial systems (non-taiji) have might other definitions of Jin, and what you’re saying might be applicable to those. 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But other martial systems (non-taiji) have might other definitions of Jin, and what you’re saying might be applicable to those. 

As far as I know, the other systems do not use the term Jin(勁) as Taiji does. Before I go into any argument, I would like spend the time to finish my theory first. I like to use a more scientific approach to convince myself what Taiji is all about.

So far I have not finish the explanation about Jin. From the Chinese traditional expression about Jin, I only grasp it is the immense power or explosive force acquired from the diligent practice of Taiji. Since I have reached the stage in acquired Jin in my body. I would like to understand it with my own thoughts by using modern scientific term to avoid any ambiguity. In my mind, it is very clear that the energy supporting my legs to hold up my body is definitely from the mitochondria. The explosive force can be generated is due the increased number of mitochondria, in the body cells, resulted from the practice of Taiji. Indeed, the mitochondria use the oxygen to decompose the glucose to make ATP to release the energy in the muscle cells. The process that release the energy is called cell respiration.

[Cobie]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… Before I go into any argument, I would like spend the time to finish my theory first. …

I like that.  I agree it’s very important to keep a clear line in a discussion. It’s not a good idea to let oneself get sidetracked by all kinds of other things, as then one can’t see the forest  for the trees.
 

 

Edited September 5 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

Cellular respiration or cell respiration is a very important theory in supporting the understanding why Taji works. The practitioner of Taiji believes that: "The movement coordinates with the breathing and the breathing coordinates with the movement." This saying falls  exactly into the cell respiration theory.

Let's look into the basic raw formula for cell respiration:
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Oxygen is from breathing, and glucose is from the foods that we eat.
Cell respiration use the oxygen to decompose the glucose and yielded two waste products of carbon dioxide and water. It, also, produce two useful things are heat to keep our body warm at a constant temperature and the energy for the body to function to live a normal life.

If a person sits, then, cell respiration will just keep a constant temperature and energy to maintain the body function at rest state.
However, when the muscle contracts, it generates more heat and energy from oxygen. At some point, the oxygen will be depleted due to the dissipation of heat and energy. Eventually, the cells need more oxygen to continue with the whole process. The source of oxygen is only by breathing the oxygen in the air. For some people, with breathing problems, just by normal breathing alone is not enough to provide the high demand of oxygen. However, in Taiji, the coordination of slow movement and deep breathing is perfect to fulfill the requirement for the high demand of oxygen in the process.

In the next post, I will have a breakdown to show more about how cell respiration in relation to Taiji.

Edited September 5 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Let's under the formula with different scenarios.

Scenario #1 Breath or death!
Under Scenario #1, the formula with look like this:
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
The lack of oxygen or food, the body will die soon or later.

Scenario #2 Normal breathing, it is different from each individual.
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)

Assuming a person eats well but breathing poorly, the limited amount of oxygen will be just enough to keep the body barely alive. Under this scenario, the person would have lots of chronic diseases.

Note: Breathing poorly means that the breath did not even go deep enough to the chest. The capasity of the lung has never been filled fully with air.

Edited September 5 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Scenario #3 Good breathing habit.
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
 

Under Scenario #3
A person breathes well with the breath goes down deep to the chest. There is a possibility that the capacity are filled at least 70 to 80% of air. It will keep the body function well and healthy. The person only get sick once awhile but recovered very quickly.

Scenario #4 Abdominal breathing,
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
There are lots of different names for abdominal breathing. Whatever people want to call it, it's always comes down to the famous final saying of "氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian."

Under Scenario #4, the capacity of the lung is completely filled with air. That implies there are ample supply of oxygen for the body cells to be utilized to generate energy.
 

Edited September 5 by ChiDragon