What is fajin, 發勁?

[ChiDragon]

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Scenario #4 Abdominal breathing,
Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
 

Using the formula, it makes easier to explain relationship between the movement and breathing in Taiji. It will lead to the understand of Jin.

Let's starts with the famous quote, in martial arts, "氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian."
The first thing in Taji is to raise both hands and bend the legs. At this instant, the muscles start using the initial amount of oxygen in the body. As soon the oxygen runs out, it will demand for more. In order to prevent hypoxia, it is wise the take a breath slowly along with the first movement. Then, exhale slowly in coordinated with the following move. The breathing procedure should be continuous throughout the practice.

The right hand side of the formula tells us is like this. The energy will start to dissipate as soon as the hands raise and the legs bend. In order, to prevent hypoxia, the breathing will bring in the oxygen. So, there won't be shortage of oxygen supply for the continuous practice.

With ample of oxygen brings in, the cell respiration will manufacture the ATP energy continuously. It will keep the body movements flow without hesitation. Hence, as long as the provision of oxygen is there, the muscles won't get into fatigue at anytime. In other words, if the breathing stops, then, the movement stops. If the breathing continuous, then, the movement continuous.

The next post will explain how to breathe more oxygen and use it more efficiently.

PS The oxygen, on the left hand side of the formula, indicates that the various amount can be obtained is determined by the breathing method.

Edited September 6 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

There are lots of different names for abdominal breathing. Whatever people want to call it, it's always comes down to the famous final saying of "氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian."

So, in your opinion, abdominal breathing will automatically sink qi to the dantien?

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Since I have reached the stage in acquired Jin in my body. I would like to understand it with my own thoughts by using modern scientific term to avoid any ambiguity. In my mind, it is very clear that the energy supporting my legs to hold up my body is definitely from the mitochondria.

What is different about CD's mitochondrial density from a strength-trainer's? You've not yet shared your experimental methodology.

- Did you take muscle biopsies?

- Did you do double-blind studies?

- Do you have the statistical data that demonstrates your hypothesis?

 

Okay, maybe I'm jumping ahead here - please take your time and elaborate your entire theory. But then please go into great detail to support it with scientific data. Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.  

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, dwai said:

So, in your opinion, abdominal breathing will automatically sink qi to the dantien?

 

Yes,  that was where the original definition come from. When breathing with the abdomen fully expanded, it was considered to be that chi is sunk to the dantien. Somehow, the definition maybe misunderstood, misused, mistranslated or lost in the translation somewhere along the line. BTW it was not my opinion.
 

The reason for the above is how people interpret the term chi(氣). Unfortunately, chi can be translated as gas, air, breath, breathing, or energy. In the case of abdominal breathing，"sink chi to the dantien", should be read or interpreted as "sink the breath to the dantien." That would become very clear breathing was to capture the oxygen from the air for cell respiration.

Edited September 6 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… how people interpret the term chi(氣). Unfortunately, chi can be translated as gas, air, breath, breathing, or energy. …

Yes, very true.
 

(I looked up the meaning of 氣 in 3 sources: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/56161-氣-qi4 /?do=findComment&comment=1039850)

 

 

Edited September 6 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

17 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The next post will explain how to breathe more oxygen and use it more efficiently.

In Taiji practice, the practitioner are doing the movements and breathing slowly. It is because a beginner is not used to have the new stress of being applied to muscles. One thing about moving the muscles too fast. All the energy in the body with be dissipated in no time. The muscles will become fatigue due to hypoxia. Since hypoxia is the dominant factor causing the muscles to fatigue, this condition could be prevented by providing ample of oxygen from breathing.

The performance of Taji can be prevented, both, from the muscle fatigue and hypoxia. The slow movements will prevent the muscle from over stress and the breathing will prevent hypoxia. It is, mainly, the slow and deep breathing preventing the muscles from fatigue. Under the condition of hypoxia, the glucose become lactic acid or lactate that would cause muscle pain and fatigue. The reason to breathe slowly is to retain the oxygen in the lung longer. That will allow more time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen molecules and distribute to all the cells. The mitochondria will have ample of oxygen to manufacture the ATP energy for he body needs.

The slow Taiji breathing will allow the lung to have its full capacity to hold oxygen. The slowness in breathing will retain the oxygen much longer in the lung before exhalation. If exhale too fast, then the unused oxygen will exhaled also and wasted. Hence, the oxygen will continuously helping to generate the energy in supporting the muscle movements. The coordination of the breathing and movements have become a rule for the Taiji practitioners. That is having "the breathing coordinates with the movement and the movement coordinates with breathing."

It should be noted that when the lung is in its full capacity to hold the breath, the diaphragm is concave downward causing the  abdomen to expand fully. Under this condition, the martial arts practitioners described and known it as 氣沉丹田 (breath sunk to the dantien) aka sink chi to the dantien. 氣 means, here, is breath not energy. It was obvious when a deep breath was taken, the abdomen is expanded outward. Thus it can, only, be said that the breath is sunk to the dantien rather than energy.

Edited September 6 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

- Did you take muscle biopsies?

- Did you do double-blind studies?

- Do you have the statistical data that demonstrates your hypothesis?

 

Okay, maybe I'm jumping ahead here - please take your time and elaborate your entire theory. But then please go into great detail to support it with scientific data. Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.  

No, I don't think it was that serious to take muscle biopsies to prove my point.
No, I did not do double-blind studies. I do not have such need for nor I am capable of doing so.
I do not have the statistical data that demonstrates my hypothesis.

My physical abilities is the best proof of the result from Taiji practice.  I can only use the available scientific theories to support my hypothesis. I studied about the contractual effects of the muscle in lieu with cell respiration. I have discovered that there is an action potential is required for muscle contraction.  Muscle contracts will activate the cell respiration to obtain its energy. That was why I went into deep study in muscle contraction and cell respiration. Indeed, it helped me to support my hypothesis to prove how Taiji works.
 

On your own time, perhaps you might want to look ahead into the effect of muscle contraction and cell respiration before my next few posts.

Edited September 6 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… muscle biopsies … double-blind studies … statistical data …

I agree there’s no need for any of that. Your method works for you and you are happy with your theoretical underpinning of it, based on the available scientific theories. Totally sufficient imo. 

 

 

Edited September 6 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

Let's be demystified to make it simple to comprehend. Then, we can cite some known facts to support it later.

As far as I know, after the diligent practice of Taji, my muscle did not change shape or any form as in weightlifting. When I fajin my muscles have a tremendous power with abdominal breathing. After exhalation, my muscle are so relaxed as normal like nothing has happened. Muscle contraction requires energy and the energy is acquired and generated from mitochondria. At slow to moderate speed of exercise, the muscle will increase the number of mitochondria. As result, that will increase the ability for the muscle to fajin. Jin is nothing something that can be measured by some means. The Taiji practitioners can only demonstrate fajin to show that Jin is existed in the body. Jin had never defined of what it is. Jin can be only described as an explosive force exerted by a Taiji practitioner. The force is no longer exist when body is at rest. So far, we have just talked about Jin but nothing about fajin yet.

The explosive force can be explained by the muscle contraction theory and cell respiration. Fajin requires all the muscles to be contracted for maximum power exertion. All parts of the body may do partial fajin. However, to be most effective, the driving factor is all on the waist to support a full execution of fajin. The muscle must be relaxed after each exertion to conserve energy. It only takes one second to exert the explosive force.

There is an old Taiji saying. Stand still like a mountain and move swiftly like an ocean wave. For example, when Bruce strikes, he was so fast. The opponent doesn't even know where the strike was coming from. Bruce Lee's idea was to anticipate the enemy before one strikes.

 

Edited September 7 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.

I am retired electrical/electronic engineer. At least, we have something in common. I hope we can iron out the concept of Taiji on common ground scientifically.

[doc benway]

43 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I am retired electrical/electronic engineer. At least, we have something in common. I hope we can iron out the concept of Taiji on common ground scientifically.

 

I studied taijiquan with CP Ong in the Washington DC area for a time.

CP is a dedicated practitioner and disciple of Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei and a great guy.

His background is in mathematics and he is committed to examining the mechanics of taiji techniques and effects.

Check out this link with his publications, you may find some of them interesting: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cp-Ong-2

 

[doc benway]

Here is an excerpt from one of CP's papers that has a nice discussion of the mechanics of fajin:

 

https://medcraveonline.com/IJCAM/a-scientific-perspective-of-neijin-internal-strength.html#:~:text=Explosive release of,liveliness of maneuverability.

 

For me, his description of the mechanics is in line with my experience and shows a clear synthesis of physics and neuroscience in examining taijiquan and neijin magic.

[ChiDragon]

15 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

I studied taijiquan with CP Ong in the Washington DC area for a time.

CP is a dedicated practitioner and disciple of Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei and a great guy.

His background is in mathematics and he is committed to examining the mechanics of taiji techniques and effects.

Check out this link with his publications, you may find some of them interesting: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cp-Ong-2

 

Thank you doc benway.
Based on what you have given is just the translation for the traditional Chinese explanation.

I believe that the paper of CP Ong wrote is just the translation of the traditional explanation. I wish he did mention something about the mitochondria. That would have a more scientific value in the explanation of Taijiquan.

I do follow Chen Xiaowang, he is a master of the Chen style Taiji. I have great respect for him. However, when comes to the explanation about Taiji, he was not quite scientifically informative. 

On the expression about neijin, I cannot agree that muscle actions + Qi is Neijin. It is because like almost everybody else, chi was just brought out from nowhere to make a vague justification. We all know our muscles have energy by the cell respiration theory as I had indicated.  

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
From this expression, I have no doubt, in my mind, that the energy was generated within the muscle itself.

Another thing is that the Chen style Taiji is different from the Yang style. I have noticed that the Chen style seems that every other move, the muscles were contracted with a little twist. Thus that gives me the indication of fajin. I don't see other styles were doing that.

Thank you very much!

 

Ref: From CP Ong's paper

Quote

For a quick answer of neijin, we can paraphrase Chen Xiaowang’s explanation in an equation:

Neijin = Muscle actions + Qi

In explaining neijin, Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang says that the strength of Qi alone is not great, and the strength of muscle force without Qi is crude and inflexible.

"The answer is encouraging as it indicates that one is building a store of neijin in the very practice of Taijiquan: The practice nurtures Qi and doing the movements entails muscle actions. For that matter, all oriental martial arts train to develop Qi"

 

Edited September 7 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
From this expression, I have no doubt, in my mind, that the energy was generated within the muscle itself.

 

Chemistry is cool, so is physics!

[Cobie]

 

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… the energy was generated within the muscle itself. …

I agree that abdominal breathing is all important. And your descriptions of the physical processes involved in Taiji practice, ring true to me.

 

 

[Cobie]

I myself regard ‘qi’ as being both physical (the vitality of the body) and non-physical (pneuma, what animates the body).

 

Edited September 7 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

To understand the cellular respiration will lead us to know why abdominal breathing is so important to a Taiji practitioner. Since people cannot stop mentioning about chi(氣) or energy, hopefully, cellular respiration will help us to clarify where is our muscle energy come from. Cellular respiration will be talking a lot about oxygen is because that is the main element to produce muscle energy. Ops, I meant Chi.

Cellular respiration is the process by which biological fuels are oxidized in the presence of an inorganic electron acceptor, such as oxygen, to drive the bulk production of adenosine triphosphate, which contains energy. Cellular respiration may be described as a set of metabolic reactions and processes that take place in the cells of organisms to convert chemical energy from nutrients into ATP, and then release waste products.

Here is a very good introduction of cellular respiration which is very educational.
Ref: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/high-school-biology/hs-energy-and-transport/hs-cellular-respiration/a/hs-cellular-respiration-review

[ChiDragon]

Why do we need oxygen?
You, like many other organisms, need oxygen to live. As you know if you’ve ever tried to hold your breath for too long, lack of oxygen can make you feel dizzy or even black out, and prolonged lack of oxygen can even cause death. But have you ever wondered why that’s the case, or what exactly your body does with all that oxygen?

As it turns out, the reason you need oxygen is so your cells can use this molecule during oxidative phosphorylation, the final stage of cellular respiration. Oxidative phosphorylation is made up of two closely connected components: the electron transport chain and chemiosmosis. In the electron transport chain, electrons are passed from one molecule to another, and energy released in these electron transfers is used to form an electrochemical gradient. In chemiosmosis, the energy stored in the gradient is used to make ATP.

So, where does oxygen fit into this picture? Oxygen sits at the end of the electron transport chain, where it accepts electrons and picks up protons to form water. If oxygen isn’t there to accept electrons (for instance, because a person is not breathing in enough oxygen), the electron transport chain will stop running, and ATP will no longer be produced by chemiosmosis. Without enough ATP, cells can’t carry out the reactions they need to function, and, after a long enough period of time, may even die.

 

Ref: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap-biology/cellular-energetics/cellular-respiration-ap/a/oxidative-phosphorylation-etc#:~:text=You, like many other organisms, need oxygen

Three steps of Cellular Respiration

Ref: https://www.microbialfacts.com/steps-of-cellular-respiration/#:~:text=Cellular respiration plays an important role

Edited September 7 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:34 PM, ChiDragon said:

No, I don't think it was that serious to take muscle biopsies to prove my point.
No, I did not do double-blind studies. I do not have such need for nor I am capable of doing so.
I do not have the statistical data that demonstrates my hypothesis.

If that’s the case, then how can you call your theory anything other than a hypothesis? To make definitive statements about it vis-a-vis science, requires scientific evidence (statistical analysis backed by experimental data).  

On 9/6/2024 at 4:34 PM, ChiDragon said:

My physical abilities is the best proof of the result from Taiji practice.  I can only use the available scientific theories to support my hypothesis. I studied about the contractual effects of the muscle in lieu with cell respiration. I have discovered that there is an action potential is required for muscle contraction.  Muscle contracts will activate the cell respiration to obtain its energy. That was why I went into deep study in muscle contraction and cell respiration. Indeed, it helped me to support my hypothesis to prove how Taiji works.

So you decided to fit your experience into a framework you felt best explained it.  That’s fine by me, but is not definitive by any scientific standards. But more power to you if it makes you feel convinced!  

On 9/6/2024 at 4:34 PM, ChiDragon said:

 

On your own time, perhaps you might want to look ahead into the effect of muscle contraction and cell respiration before my next few posts.

Not interested, as I’m quite sure that muscle contraction has nothing to do with taiji Jin  - my experience and those of others I know with phds and post-doctoral degrees in hard science, takes it to something beyond the domain of existing science. All agree that science is incapable of explaining or understanding this phenomenon entirely. 

[ChiDragon]

Introduction to muscle conditions with mitochondrial dysfunction.

The growth of interest in mitochondrial research over the last decade is related to the knowledge that mitochondrial content and function exhibit plasticity in response to changes in metabolic energy demand. Exercise is a stimulus that is well known to induce increases in mitochondrial content within skeletal muscle. However, decrements in mitochondrial content and function can also take place, forcing muscle to derive a greater fraction of its energy from glycolysis during the stress of energy demands. Such decreases in mitochondria are readily apparent in muscle fibers subject to chronic disuse, providing evidence that muscle activity is critical to maintenance of a normal, healthy mitochondrial pool. 

The above explanation shows the effect of exercise between Taiji and weightlifting on the mitochondrial density.

 

 

Ref: https://journals.lww.com/acsm-essr/Fulltext/2021/04000/Exercise_Is_Muscle_Mitochondrial_Medicine.1.aspx

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

If that’s the case, then how can you call your theory anything other than a hypothesis? To make definitive statements about it vis-a-vis science, requires scientific evidence (statistical analysis backed by experimental data).  

Someone had done the work already, and published paper on them. Why do I need to reinvent the wheel again?
 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

So you decided to fit your experience into a framework you felt best explained it.  That’s fine by me, but is not definitive by any scientific standards. But more power to you if it makes you feel convinced!  

What is wrong with using existing known scientific facts to back up my claims. As long I am not grabbing something from thin air and threw it to justify my understanding. It is not possible that I am in violation of any scientific standards.

May I ask what statistical analysis backed by experimental data did you use on your understanding.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Not interested, as I’m quite sure that muscle contraction has nothing to do with taiji Jin  - my experience and those of others I know with phds and post-doctoral degrees in hard science, takes it to something beyond the domain of existing science. All agree that science is incapable of explaining or understanding this phenomenon entirely. 

Wow! It was only a friendly suggestion. Not interested is a very scientific approach. Denying something before it was investigated. Are you saying, now, there is no need to go any further on this thread?

PS No matter what, I will go to conclude what fajin is all about. Peace!

Edited September 8 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

May I ask what statistical analysis backed by experimental data did you use on your understanding.

I didn’t, because I don’t claim there to be any “scientific theory” to back it. As far as I’m concerned, current science is incapable of detecting and measuring it beyond its applied effects. There are no scientific theories that I’ve come across that even remotely matches the lived experience of the kind of phenomenon I consider to be real Jin (aka not muscular strength)   

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Not interested, as I’m quite sure that muscle contraction has nothing to do with taiji Jin  - my experience and those of others I know with phds and post-doctoral degrees in hard science, takes it to something beyond the domain of existing science. All agree that science is incapable of explaining or understanding this phenomenon entirely. 

 

You now have another ex-academic who also confirms, its beyond the realms of scientific explanation.

 

Its not beyond the scientific method to explore it (indeed I encourage all to try internal arts) ,

 

But it is definately, 100% beyond the scientific body of knowledge to explain it  

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I didn’t, because I don’t claim there to be any “scientific theory” to back it. As far as I’m concerned, current science is incapable of detecting and measuring it beyond its applied effects. There are no scientific theories that I’ve come across that even remotely matches the lived experience of the kind of phenomenon I consider to be real Jin (aka not muscular strength)   

Perhaps no one knew what it is nor what to look for. Even they found something close to it, then, they want to find a way to deny it. Since you say Jin is not muscle strength, I will close my eyes with my mind opened. On my next practice, I will lighten up my muscles just for you. Peace! ✌️

[Forestgreen]

Based on descriptions of the phenomenon and the practices that lead to the ability, the premotor cortex would be the first area to look in to. It is highly connected to sensorysomatic cortex, and the combination of increased sensory sensitivity (which taiji develops) and a lowered threshold of activation is known to create muscle jerks. 

Add the taiji bodywork to that,  and you have at least a hypotetis that is testable and falsably (not sure if that is the correct word).