What is fajin, 發勁?

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

What's even more interesting are the parallels I see between Daoist practice and Theravada Visudhimagga samatha/jhana. Brine notes the same order of operations (vibrations/heat/light), however, the focal point is the dan tian as opposed to the breath (a focal point likely transmitted to and retained by the Zen school). If so, this strikes me as using Samkhya samadhi practices and combining them with Daoist health practices to achieve something beyond health and longevity. I've even run into Daoists that espouse Samkhya principles (mind/body duality). The issue of course is that not everyone can reach Visudhimagga jhana, so that path may be beyond the reach of the vast majority and especially lay people. 

 

Well the thing is, the pre-reform Theravada has a slightly different focal point  

 

For everything the Dhammakaya got wrong, that was the one thing they got right

 

 

Of course, it might not surprise you to contrast with this

 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

If I had to speculate, it seems like the vast majority of Tai Chi people are only exposed to the physical aspects. Beyond this, a certain amount are exposed to the energetic aspects. Even here, they are usually taught apart from meditative practices. They remain primarily ming practices-- which I believe is more associated with Southern schools.

All this terminology - xing, Ming and so on don’t really appear in the ML system - which rather focuses on the practical application. Idk if you went through it, but our common teacher went on to teach several seated meditations over the 13 years I studied with him. Some of these were pre-heaven and some post-heaven. Even in the standing practices some are pre-heaven and some post-heaven - but the labels were not important - the important thing was - “does it do what it is meant to?” 
For that, we need a teacher who has experience and can guide us through the journey. Now, as I’ve been studying with my present teacher for the past 10 years or so, he is revealing more esoteric material through direct transmission. It doesn’t matter what language is used (most of the things he gives us can’t be expressed in words anyway). When he reveals something, direct apperception occurs, and keeps unfolding for days after through practice. This is entirely in the domain of “spirit” and “awareness”. Its applications are just ways to assess if we are able to digest and assimilate the information transmitted. 

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

The next level, the spiritual aspect, it conspicuously absent, but it seems to me that it is present in the Ramus/Liao versions. I would note that a lot of later Daoist texts refer explicitly to Chan schools for the xing aspect as if the Daoist portion lies primarily with the ming aspect. In this case, the Chan schools are often criticized as only teaching xing. Of course, this is only partial since xing and ming aren't really separate (and aren't separated pre-heaven) the same way emptiness/form or Shiva/Shakti aren't really separated. If I had to further speculate, Rasmus may have recovered the xing aspect from his hermetic practice, wheras Liao may get it from the Daoists, others may get it from Chan, others from Advaita, etc.

 

Of course, this is all speculation. 

I asked my teacher how he learns what he does - and he says some he was taught, others — over the years revealed themselves to him. He applied/experimented until he understood them.
 

That is the beauty of a spiritual path - not all things can be labeled and categorized, there needs to be a mystery that unfolds with practice. It is not a course one finishes and walks away - it is a lifelong companion. We need to keep polishing the mirror, and the truth will be revealed in it. 

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

What's even more interesting are the parallels I see between Daoist practice and Theravada Visudhimagga samatha/jhana. Brine notes the same order of operations (vibrations/heat/light), however, the focal point is the dan tian as opposed to the breath (a focal point likely transmitted to and retained by the Zen school). If so, this strikes me as using Samkhya samadhi practices and combining them with Daoist health practices to achieve something beyond health and longevity. I've even run into Daoists that espouse Samkhya principles (mind/body duality). The issue of course is that not everyone can reach Visudhimagga jhana, so that path may be beyond the reach of the vast majority and especially lay people. 

 

 

If Taoism is to compare with Buddhism, then Tibetan would be most similar, not in the exact technique or objectives but in the general structure and importance of cultivation.   While China Buddhism is similar to Taoist by long term association, integration.   Theravada would be the least of the 3.

 

[Shadow_self]

27 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

If Taoism is to compare with Buddhism, then Tibetan would be most similar, not in the exact technique or objectives but in the general structure and importance of cultivation.   While China Buddhism is similar to Taoist by long term association, integration.   Theravada would be the least of the 3.

 

 

Youd be surprised. The pre-reform Theravadan tradition is actually more like Neidan to be honest. Much more

 

It too seeks to create an immortal body.

 

Some of them are the same/similar, some are different

 

It also has a manner of using the Pali language, that is lost to the modern presentations (thats not something I can discuss though)

[ChiDragon]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

The details around this are murky, but I suspect that Cheng Man Ching and Master Liao probably shared a teacher (at some point in time). ML always claims that CMC was a friend and that he didn't study under him.

 

FYI Cheng Man Ching, 鄭曼青, was a herbalist. I'd read his autobiography. He have a special encounter with the Yang family. As I recall, He cured an ill for the mother of a Yang Taiji master. The Taiji master was also a herbalist, he was afraid to give the herbal medicine to his mother. It is because that is his mother and he just become uncertain that he might prescribed the wrong medicine. However, CMC over heard that and knew the herbal medicine is ok to use for his mother. So, CMC gave the same recipe to cure the master's mother.

At first, the Yang Taiji master did not want to teach CMC Taiji because it is a traditional family secret. Since CMC cured his mother, then the Yang Master taught the Yang style family Taiji to him.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

All this terminology - xing, Ming and so on don’t really appear in the ML system

性命雙修 , the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is a Taoist practice. The esoteric terms of Xing and Ming stands for mind and body, respectively. Xing is the cultivation of the mind and Ming is the cultivation of the body. It is a Taoist practice to become a better person or a perfect man(真人) by doing the dual cultivation at the same time.

PS
Now, I got this out of the way. I hope we'll be back on to the main course of the OP. Thank you.

Edited September 9 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

性命雙修 , the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is a Taoist practice. The esoteric term尸 of Xing and Ming stands for mind and body, respectively. Xing is the cultivation of the mind and Ming is the cultivation of the body. It is a Taoist practice to become a better person or a perfect man(真人) by doing the dual cultivation at the same time.

PS
Now, I got this out of the way. I hope we'll be back on to the main course of the OP. Thank you.

Gee thanks for enlightening us 😇

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Nintendao said:

That not Sending, that Rooting.

Assuming that everyone knew what rooting is all about, let's evaluate what do you mean by "not sending, that rooting" Hopefully it is not an insult to Master Chen Xiaowang.

The surface of Taiji circle is smooth and slippery. Just just fighting by the weight of his opponent, alone, without a good  foundation of rooting, Master Chen wouldn't even have a chance to stay inside the circle. If you have noticed that Chen's right leg was never moved, that is the indication of good foundation of rooting which gives him leverage and balance to stay put. He applied Fajin throughout the whole body. He is not just fighting against the weight of the opponent, but also the pushing force. It is obvious that Chen weights lighter than his opponent. Hence,  Chen has to use more power to overcome the difference in weight and the pushing force.

So, we can look at it mathematically:
Jin = the force Chen has to generate
W1 = the weight of the opponent
W2 = the weight of Chen
F1 = the pushing force of the opponent.

Jin = (W1 - W2) + F1 is how much power that Chen has to be generated to overcome the force against him to stay inside the circle.

 

Edited September 9 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Where does all Chen's power coming from? The power was coming from Fajin. The power of Jin that was acquired from the practice of Taiji. However, one must be aware that Jin was not developed by the practice Taiji. Taiji will only condition the body to have the ability to generate the energy to Fajin. To initiate Fajin is by the contraction of the muscles. As soon the muscles are relaxed, Fajin is deactivated immediately. In order to maintain continuous Fajin, Chi, 氣, must sink to the lower dantian at all time by the abdominal breathing method.
 

How does Fajin to generate it power, I think I had said enough in the few posts above. Some people thought that was all speculations. So, let it be, science will reveal its truth. Peace!

[Nintendao]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Assuming that everyone knew what rooting is all about, let's evaluate what do you mean by "not sending, that rooting" Hopefully it is not an insult to Master Chen Xiaowang.

Definitely not meant to be insulting! Was noticing the difference that most fajin demonstrations are about flinging away or toppling over the opponent (although he does also do that a few times throughout the video, after they have failed to move him and he bounce them either with fajin or by redirecting (huajin 化勁.)) 

 

However for this challenge he would have not only been pushing in the opposite direction, but absorbing the incoming force and sending it straight into the ground.

 

[forestofclarity]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Well the thing is, the pre-reform Theravada has a slightly different focal point

 

I'm not sure what you mean by pre-reform Theravada. The Visudhimagga was committed to writing 1500 years ago, and is likely based on an earlier oral tradition that probably predates the arising of Tantra.  I would say there are different reasons for the different focal points.

 

7 hours ago, dwai said:

That is the beauty of a spiritual path - not all things can be labeled and categorized, there needs to be a mystery that unfolds with practice. It is not a course one finishes and walks away - it is a lifelong companion. We need to keep polishing the mirror, and the truth will be revealed in it. 

 

I don't really see a duality between the mystery and the expression. Words can point beyond words, or entangle us in endless concepts. Teachers can connect us to the source of the teachings, or we can get trapped by our attachments. Etc. But the importance of words, concepts, and teachings is really to connect with other beings in my opinion, if one is working for the benefit of all beings. Or to clarify matters for oneself. Anyway, if it is not helpful, free free to ignore any of my speculations. 

 

But you DID NOT say to polish the mirror!  

 

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

then Tibetan would be most similar,

 

I agree, but I generally don't talk about things that I've been asked not to talk about, so I tend not to bring them up in public discussions on public boards.

 

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I don't really see a duality between the mystery and the expression. Words can point beyond words, or entangle us in endless concepts. Teachers can connect us to the source of the teachings, or we can get trapped by our attachments. Etc.

yes words can both entangle and point to the truth. There are some things one needs to recognize for proper discernment to happen - the literal meaning (vachyartha) and the implied meaning (lakshyartha). Not all words have the second (subtle) meaning, but in the spiritual realm many do. In tantra, such language is called sandhya bhasha (twilight language). Without a good teacher, or sufficient clarity of mind, such words become caricatured into ideas such as “mitochondrial density” or laughed at as being gibberish. 🤦

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

But the importance of words, concepts, and teachings is really to connect with other beings in my opinion, if one is working for the benefit of all beings. Or to clarify matters for oneself. Anyway, if it is not helpful, free free to ignore any of my speculations. 
 

I like what Ramana said, “first become free, rest will happen automatically” (paraphrasing). 
I like where your speculations are taking us  

20 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

 

 

But you DID NOT say to polish the mirror!  

 

Didn’t I? 😜

[Shadow_self]

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by pre-reform Theravada.

 

I mean before the current iteration of it.

 

You can read various bits and pieces about what currently passes as "Theravada" elsewhere. Its not hard to find discussion about it

 

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

The Visudhimagga was committed to writing 1500 years ago, and is likely based on an earlier oral tradition that probably predates the arising of Tantra. 

 

Im not really at liberty to discuss what I know about the Vishuddimagga in depth, thought that would be a fun thread! 

 

But in a nutshell, its not complete. To put it another way. It is for the public.

 

Which is why it is public

 

It would be good to understand that long before things were written down, they were transmitted orally, along with many other things, which are not written down.

 

Moreover, not everything that is written down is public either

 

Tantra existed in writing prior to the VM, and before that orally. So that argument doesnt really hold steam imo

 

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I would say there are different reasons for the different focal points.

 

What exactly do you think the purpose of that focal point is?

[forestofclarity]

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

To put it another way. It is for the public.

 

Which is why it is public

 

That's literally the same thing all esoteric teachings say-- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. 

 

23 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

they were transmitted orally,

 

Various groups always say that X teaching is no doubt the original, true teaching of the Buddha, or the higher teaching, or the ultimate teaching, or the teaching the Buddha gave to the nagas, or to the Buddhas favorite disciple, or (insert lineage story here), etc. 

 

27 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Im not really at liberty

 

So why mention it at all? 

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Tantra existed in writing prior to the VM

 

I doubt it existed prior to the Samkhya teachings in India, which seem to be where the VM arose from and where I speculate the Buddha probably learned his concentration techniques. But this is speculation. I wasn't there for any of it. 

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

What exactly do you think the purpose of that focal point is?

 

Why do I feel that this is not a question asked sincerely, in the spirit of free and open inquiry? 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

and he bounce them either with fajin or by redirecting (huajin 化勁.)) 

 

Sorry, the video is all in Chinese, let me clarify what is the objective of the video. Perhaps you might want to reconsider on original thought.

 

It is not a push-hand competition, rather it is a push-push situation. The idea is to test the strength of a Taiji  master. The test was done in three rounds. Each round is one minute. After three rounds, if Chen still inside the Taiji circle wins.

 

In the competition, both opponents are pushing each other. It was all yang-yang forces without any yin-yang effect. If it was push-hand, Chen would have guided the incoming force to the right hand side. In the same token, Chen could have had pulled forward to step out of the circle by his opponent. Hence, there was no huajin was involved.

 

Edited September 10 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

58 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

That's literally the same thing all esoteric teachings say-- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. 

 

Yes I agree

 

Quote

Various groups always say that X teaching is no doubt the original, true teaching of the Buddha, or the higher teaching, or the ultimate teaching, or the teaching the Buddha gave to the nagas, or to the Buddhas favorite disciple, or (insert lineage story here), etc. 

 

When we get to the people who are telling the story demonstrating various paranormal abilties, and producing documents from lineage amongst other things,  their legitimacy tends to rise in my opinion

 

Moreover, when you too become able  to reproduce some rather odd effects (and physiological changes) , the legitimacy tends to rise further

 

You've probably become familiar with the story of the Buddha emitting rays of visible light upon teaching the Paṭṭhāna

 

Thats quite a literal thing, hard as that might be to swallow. Freeform was the only other person Ive seen mention it before, but yes, a very real thing

 

So again, when people start demonstrating bizarre phenomena like this, you tend to give them an ear

 

Quote

So why mention it at all? 

 

Because you brought it up. I was being respectful in acknowledging what you said, but letting you know its not something I can really get into

 

Quote

I doubt it existed prior to the Samkhya teachings in India, which seem to be where the VM arose from and where I speculate the Buddha probably learned his concentration techniques.

 

It did.

 

For example, Tantric teachings were around in Ancient Egypt.

 

You understand this predates the Samkhya I presume? 

 

Quote

Why do I feel that this is not a question asked sincerely, in the spirit of free and open inquiry? 

 

I dont know. i just asked you a question is all

 

Is there an issue with the question?

 

You were the one who mentioned points of significance. Im just curious regards your knowledge of the significance here is all

Edited September 10 by Shadow_self

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

So again, when people start demonstrating bizarre phenomena like this, you tend to give them an ear

 

I don't see the connection between power and wisdom. There are many teachings in many traditions. In the Suttas, different disciples had different powers and some had none depending on their karma and disposition. Given that lay followers tend to support those with powers, there is a general ban per the vinaya I believe on discussing one's siddhis and powers since lack of support can end a monk's career. Further, I find that talk of power is quite popular, because it appeals to our baser side--- clinging and craving. These hindrances, per the teachings I've received, block one's progress. 

 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I was being respectful in acknowledging

 

All right, I will acknowledge that we have different ways of processing written information, social cues, etc. Here is my limited POV: there are provocative posts that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy. When questioned, there is a tendency to fall back on secrecy or something similar. In exoteric Buddhism, this is sowing doubt in the sangha, which is one of the worst things a Buddhist can do. 

 

There are mental functions (samskaras) that criticize, rank, and distinguish "good and bad." Typically IME these functions are limited, and imposing limited ideas on the world due to mental habit. These functions tend to weaken as one progresses in my experience and from what I've seen. 

 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Tantric teachings were around in Ancient Egypt.

 

Source?

 

11 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Im just curious regards your knowledge

 

One is a fixed point external on the physical body, and one is a point within the body. Concentrating on them has different effects on the body-mind. 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I don't see the connection between power and wisdom.

 

What exactly does power have to do with it? 

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

There are many teachings in many traditions. In the Suttas, different disciples had different powers and some had none depending on their karma and disposition.

 

Regards the term powers. I take issue with the term. These are not new things acquired in many cases, they are dormant faculties brought forward

 

How legitimate a system is, in my experience is the degree to which some of these things can be awakened as a byproduct of the practice (not the aim)

 

Physical changes for example, are something that indicate the bridge between form and formless is connected, or connecting

 

Behind closed doors, these things often serve as a litmus test whether or not transformation is actually happening, or is just some mental fabrication of the practitioner

 

Let me give you just one simple and non bizarre example, made by a member held in high regard here

 

 

You cant fake these types of things. And these are some of the least weird ones

 

Whether you work top down or bottom up, you will go through some physical shifts if the connection is made, though the bottom up is more profound in some ways

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Given that lay followers tend to support those with powers, there is a general ban per the vinaya I believe on discussing one's siddhis and powers since lack of support can end a monk's career. Further, I find that talk of power is quite popular, because it appeals to our baser side--- clinging and craving. These hindrances, per the teachings I've received, block one's progress. 

 

The other reason is the vast majority havent got the capacity to carry any transformation from formlessness back to form, so never develop any.

 

What they get instead is experiences that  most often, do not stabilize

 

Thats not a limitation of the person, its a limitation of the epoch of time we are in (which is known amongst high level folk)

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

All right, I will acknowledge that we have different ways of processing written information, social cues, etc.

 

Well, im just answering and asking as they come in. I have no agenda.

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Here is my limited POV: there are provocative posts that challenge the prevailing orthodoxy.

 

Theres quite a bit written from well respected academics about what the current orthodoxy is representative of.

 

Crosby book would be worth a read for some history

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

When questioned, there is a tendency to fall back on secrecy or something similar.

 

You expect someone to speak openly on such things?

 

I think you will be sadly disappointed in that case. Im about as generous as they come with information, but even I have my lines from all my teachers that I wont cross

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

In exoteric Buddhism, this is sowing doubt in the sangha, which is one of the worst things a Buddhist can do. 

 

Forunately, exoteric Buddhism is not my concern.

 

But my intent is not about sowing doubt, and I am not a Buddhist or a Daoist  

 

I practice their systems. I dislike labels  

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

There are mental functions (samskaras) that criticize, rank, and distinguish "good and bad." Typically IME these functions are limited, and imposing limited ideas on the world due to mental habit. These functions tend to weaken as one progresses in my experience and from what I've seen. 

 

As I already mentioned to you, I take no issue with anyone practicing the modern iteration

 

What I do know, is if someone is practicing an authentic path of transformation, the effects will ripple downward into form

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Source?

 

You can see some of the Asana basically inscribed into heiroglyphics, though that requires  a fair bit of digging. I was interested a long time ago. I really couldnt care less now to be honest

 

The traditions are all but dead, and the current rise of modern "kemetic" yoga will kill any chance anyone has of finding decent resources on it. 

 

Youll find a bit about it if you look hard enough. Its just a complete mess with this topic

 

Hermetics would be the best example carrying over teachings, and as you know they have a three stage system - Physical, Energetic and Spiritual. Most of the hermetic schools lost the physical part or hid it.

 

Today any teachers I know that do teach it, usually augment the practice with Yijinjing, Hatha or Trul Khor to fill the gap. Some of the lesser public sects retain some of them as far as Im aware

 

Sorry, I really dont have the patience to go digging for this type of material, if you do, be my guest  

 

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

One is a fixed point external on the physical body, and one is a point within the body. Concentrating on them has different effects on the body-mind. 

 

Then we have very different understandings of them, which is fine

[ChiDragon]

On 9/4/2024 at 1:19 PM, dwai said:

If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

This was never got out of my mind. If one who knew bout Fajin, one wouldn't have had asked such question. I'll give you a chance to think about it. I will get to the point when I have a chance to go to my computer.

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

@Cobie

Since you know how to Fajin, please tell us when is the best time to do that!

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

This was never got out of my mind. If one who knew bout Fajin, one wouldn't have had asked such question. I'll give you a chance to think about it. I will get to the point when I have a chance to go to my computer.

Why don’t you show us by demoing fajin on a live person? 🤣

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Why don’t you show us by demoing fajin on a live person? 🤣

I always wanted to try it on my wife, but she won't let me. She was afraid that I might hurt her. 💔

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I always wanted to try it on my wife, but she won't let me. She was afraid that I might hurt her. 💔

 

Try it on somebody else ? 

Edited September 11 by Shadow_self

[forestofclarity]

16 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Behind closed doors, these things often serve as a litmus test whether or not transformation is actually happening, or is just some mental fabrication of the practitioner

 

First off, the mind is much more powerful than you think. Second, most lineages have physical changes involved, but many don't talk about them. We are idea making machines. Once formed, an idea may be nearly impossible to remove. Third, it is more important to walk the road than collect other people's signs, in my opinion. But I have no idea how it will unfold for others. The Dao isn't a one trick pony. 

 

17 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I practice their systems. I dislike labels

 

Gravity applies, even if one is not a physicist. 

 

 

[Master Logray]

There are levels of Fajin.  If my Fajin can push a trolley for 10 feet, it is not very useful.