What is fajin, 發勁?

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

First off, the mind is much more powerful than you think.

 

I dont believe you to be in a position to comment on my understanding of mind to be honest

 

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

Second, most lineages have physical changes involved, but many don't talk about them.

 

The ones that do have them, are normally not public, or if they are, usually take a  fair bit of digging around

 

But by all means, feel free to discuss more

 

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

We are idea making machines. Once formed, an idea may be nearly impossible to remove.

 

This would indicate a misunderstanding of how mind works imo.

 

Your mind is the most unstable, impermanent thing you have.

 

Impossible to remove ideas would denote someone doesnt know how to practice properly, which, actually, is probably more common that you would care to believe

 

 Xin Zhai and Zuowang, or "Heart Mind Fasting" and  "Sitting and Forgetting" is how one approaches this, and its not unique to Daoism (though the name is)

 

One stops the "accumulations" the other breaks down the "accumulated"

 

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

Third, it is more important to walk the road than collect other people's signs,

 

Its never a matter of "collecting signs" and thats a misrepresentation to be perfectly honest.

 

Its more a matter of being guided towards a destination, by people who've walked that path before you, and can prove it

 

Id liken it to having an experienced tour guide

 

Trailblazers dont get far in most cases. The most common scenario with that is they walk a few steps, pretend they've got to the destination and then lower the bar and that becomes the new benchmark

 

This is not rare, in fact it is everywhere

 

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

Gravity applies, even if one is not a physicist. 

 

My experience tells me quite the opposite.  The further I go into these methods, the less I draw towards any of it

 

Usually the "gravity" is the mind being pulled into the acquired "decorations"

 

Beneath the surface, the congenital, things arent quite the same

 

Upon initiation, theres a transmission into  a lineage, and thats less gravitational and more like a connection

 

But even then, most  initiations are little more than cultural relics from what I've seen

[dwai]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I always wanted to try it on my wife, but she won't let me. She was afraid that I might hurt her. 💔

Based on the volume of information you seem to possess, I was under the impression that you teach as well. Is that not true?

 

If not, do you have (or have you ever had) regular practice partners with whom you can explore and experiment with your art?

 

If that is not valid either, would it be safe to say that you haven't actually applied these theories and empirically verified their efficacy with other people in at least a push-hands setting? How, then, can you be so sure about them?

 

My teachers have always insisted that the most important thing about learning the IMA is having practice partners who can give you honest and sincere feedback (and vice versa). The forms require solo practice but are only one part of the puzzle (in a figure of speaking). An entire set of two-person practices is needed to validate and refine our skills. 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Based on the volume of information you seem to possess, I was under the impression that you teach as well. Is that not true?

 

If not, do you have (or have you ever had) regular practice partners with whom you can explore and experiment with your art?

 

If that is not valid either, would it be safe to say that you haven't actually applied these theories and empirically verified their efficacy with other people in at least a push-hands setting? How, then, can you be so sure about them?

 

My teachers have always insisted that the most important thing about learning the IMA is having practice partners who can give you honest and sincere feedback (and vice versa). The forms require solo practice but are only one part of the puzzle (in a figure of speaking). An entire set of two-person practices is needed to validate and refine our skills. 

 

Yes, I am possessed with Taiji. In order to master the art, one must dedicate all the time and effort into it. I am also a volunteer teaching Taiji at a Chinese community service center. I teach two hours there on every Tuesday. One hour for the practice of the 24 form and one hour of Taiji sword. Taiji can do wonders to improve one's health. Showing my ability was to encourage them to practice with enthusiasm. Sometimes, I do demonstrate Fajin introducing what Taiji can do to improve someone's health.

There are not many people I can practice with in my area. Sometimes, I go to visit some Taiji Tournaments to talk and on hand practice push-hand with some participants to enhance my knowledge. As far as solo as concern, I had come up with the idea using a punching bag to do push-hand.

I am getting the impression that people are insisted to have a teacher to learn from. That is very true. However, a teacher can only help one to get started. As a beginner, after learning the forms, it is strictly to practice on once own diligently. At the beginning level, the student should not expect to learn more but the basics. In time, student shall notice that there are some physically changes in the body. That would be an indication of health improvement. There are some biological change inside the body that people are not aware of and they don't care. 
 

Learning the art cannot strictly rely on the teacher alone. One had to do some investigation on one's own. To enhance one's wisdom. After mastering to art, a master may give advice rather than asking for advice. Unless, one can learn from another person with more knowledge. There was an old saying "know yourself know others." In other words, one with the desirable knowledge by listening to the words that someone uses will know how much the other knows.  Same thing with any practice, a master will know the ability of one or another by observation.

Now, back to the Fajin question: If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin? 

Normally, a person do not Fajin unless it was in danger. A quick reflex is to Fajin by a muscle action with deep inhalation, sinking chi to the LDT. At that moment, that person is at the strongest body condition. The coordination of movement and breathing takes place. There won't be a shortage of breath. Beside, if one had mastered in breathing, one may regulate one's breath in any way. To test one ability in breathing is by how long a person can hold the breath before suffocation. As a matter of fact, yesterday, I had demonstrated by holding my breath for 45 seconds before suffocation in my class.

The reason I had the sabre demo was to show the ability in breathing. Otherwise, the demo wouldn't have lasted for 6 minutes. However, it seems I didn't sense the old saying, here, "know yourself know others".

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

33 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Normally, a person do not Fajin unless it was in danger. A quick reflex is to Fajin by a muscle action with deep inhalation, sinking chi to the LDT. At that moment, that person is at the strongest body condition. The coordination of movement and breathing takes place. There won't be a shortage of breath. Beside, if one had mastered in breathing, one may regulate one's breath in any way. To test one ability in breathing is by how long a person can hold the breath before suffocation. As a matter of fact, yesterday, I had demonstrated by holding my breath for 45 seconds before suffocation in my class.

We can discuss fajin further after you demonstrate fajin with a live partner.

 

Heavy bags are not a good way to do push-hands. They will give you dead weight—a live human being will not.

 

I know many people who have practiced for 40-50 years but still can't do it. They can talk up a storm about it sounding like grandmasters, though. As I mentioned earlier,  Fajin is just the tip of the iceberg - so many different ways jin can be expressed (floating, sinking, heavy, light, etc.). There is the ability to transform (hua) and stick (Na). The only way to know if you can do it, is by working with other live humans. A good practitioner can gauge your skill by touching your hands. Do you have peng? Are you song? Do you have ting? All these things are required before you can Fajin. 
 

PS: Fajin can be done in one of 3 ways. long power, short power or cold power. Mostly for practice and demos we use long power.  Long power is a good gauge to see if the practitioner has the ability to issue Jin without risking their practice partner. I’d recommend using this for demos. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I know many people who have practiced for 40-50 years but still can't do it. They can talk up a storm about it sounding like grandmasters, though. As I mentioned earlier,  Fajin is just the tip of the iceberg - so many different ways jin can be expressed (floating, sinking, heavy, light, etc.). There is the ability to transform (hua) and stick (Na). The only way to know if you can do it, is by working with other live humans. A good practitioner can gauge your skill by touching your hands. Do you have peng? Are you song? Do you have ting? All these things are required before you can Fajin. 
 

PS: Fajin can be done in one of 3 ways. long power, short power or cold power. Mostly for practice and demos we use long power.  Long power is a good gauge to see if the practitioner has the ability to issue Jin without risking their practice partner. I’d recommend using this for demos. 

Many people who have practiced for 40-50 years but still can't do it. It was because they did not incorporate the breathing into consideration. Okay, by the line of your questioning,  you may assume that I know nothing about push-hand. However, I know enough to know how much you knew with all the basics. It takes one to know one.

The words in bold are only the requirements help to know when to Fajin with a partner. However, if the body was conditioned from practice and done properly/correctly, one can be standing alone still able to Fajin without a partner. No?

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

We can discuss fajin further after you demonstrate fajin with a live partner.

 
I wouldn't think this the way to end a valuable discussion. The ancient masters are always have humble talks about their knowledge before they going into the troublesome moves to prove their point.

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Heavy bags are not a good way to do push-hands. They will give you dead weight—a live human being will not

 

I do not use a heavy bag, rather I used a lightweight bag stand up right on the floor. When push I feel the light weight of the bag to get the yang effect. On the pull, moving my hand away from the bag, I go song(松) on my hand and let the bag follow me to get the yin effect. When doing the push-pull motion, it meets the yin-yang concept which what Taiji goes by.

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

… demonstrate fajin with a live partner …

Of limited use imo, as 2 friends can easily fake the effect.

 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

Of limited use imo, as 2 friends can easily fake the effect.

 

That's why you need sincere and honest practice partners

It is at least more efficient than fajin in thin air, IMHO. 

[Cobie]

 

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 I wouldn't think this the way to end a valuable discussion. The ancient masters are always have humble talks about their knowledge before they going into the troublesome moves to prove their point.

I agree. An honest discussion has value. And ‘proof’ can easily be faked. 
 

[dwai]

40 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 
I wouldn't think this the way to end a valuable discussion. The ancient masters are always have humble talks about their knowledge before they going into the troublesome moves to prove their point.

The way I see it, there is a point of diminishing returns if there is no way to demonstrate what is being claimed

 

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

@Cobie

Since you know how to Fajin, please tell us when is the best time to do that!

When required.

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

I agree. An honest discussion has value. And ‘proof’ can easily be faked. 
 

What good is an "honest" discussion about theory without empirical evidence that it works in practice?

While 'proof' can be faked, it is still better than *no proof* and *only talk*  

I don't see it that way - but you should feel free to discuss these things till the proverbial cows come home  

 

[ChiDragon]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

The way I see it, there is a point of diminishing returns if there is no way to demonstrate what is being claimed

 

 There was another saying, 不到黃河心不息. 

I'll let Cobie handle this one. Please translate!
@Cobie

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 There was another saying, 不到黃河心不息. 

I'll let Cobie handle this one. Please translate!
@Cobie

“My heart will never rest until I reach the Yellow River”? 
Happy sailing, I guess?  

[Cobie]

37 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 … Please translate! 

 

(idiom) Don’t give up until you achieve your goal.

 

 

Edited September 11 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

There are levels of Fajin.  If my Fajin can push a trolley for 10 feet, it is not very useful.

Ofc not, your trolley has wheels.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

(idiom) Don’t give up until you achieve your goal.

 

 

 

Thank Tao, we are almost become a Taoist. You are a quarter-Taoist and I am a semi-Taoist. At least, we can make some sense out of each other and communicate. It was nice that we can picked it up where we left off from OD. Otherwise, we would be boring to death. Anyway, Taoist talk makes thing to go in accordance with the way of Tao. It gives us a peace of mind. Isn't that wonderful!

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

We can discuss fajin further after you demonstrate fajin with a live partner.

BTW May I have the honor to see your demo? It's optional of course.

Please do get me wrong. I am not asking for proof. I beleive you based on your words.

Edited September 11 by ChiDragon

[forestofclarity]

Does fajin have a point outside of martial arts? 

 

 

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Does fajin have a point outside of martial arts? 

 

 

Not really, but it is a gateway for a certain type of cultivation.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Does fajin have a point outside of martial arts? 

 

 

No, Fajin is the highest form of martial arts in Taiji. Just one punch through the heart will kill someone. That Jin(explosive force) is so powerful, it will just go through one's body. My teacher once told us, just be careful who you touch and try not to push any kid around! The kid might flight off few feet away.

Edited September 12 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

14 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

BTW May I have the honor to see your demo? It's optional of course.

Please do get me wrong. I am not asking for proof. I beleive you based on your words.

 

[ChiDragon]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Thank you very much for showing the videos. I didn't know which gentleman is you. However, I do see lots of Jin in the body of both partners. I think push-hand was performed. I only see push-push, none was push-pull. Therefore, I would not consider to classify that as a performance of push-hand. What I can say is that both partners are testing the body strength of each other.

Now, I had seen your videos. May I have your permission to make a few comments with no offense? It is because I have a lot more to say.

Edited September 13 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Interesting to read this discussion of fajin.

One thing worth mentioning is that fajin is not unique to taijiquan.

It is a core technique in xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang, and even wing chun. 

Slow motion forms are primarily found in taijiquan.

On the other hand, each of these arts places emphasis, to varying degrees, on standing meditation of one sort or another.

I haven't studied all of the above arts but I have trained in taiji, xingyi, bagua, and wing chun. 

In my own experience, standing is one of the most important ingredients in developing fajin, as well as other jin, eg. coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, and so on. It seems this is because standing cultivates song, a strong yet flexible and responsive structure along with mind-body integration.

Standing can also be a wonderful method of healing the body.

In my experience, the power of fajin comes from the proper development of the body, listening and sensing skills, timing, whole body coordination through the waist and kua, rooting skill, and perhaps most of all, awareness, which underlies all of the above. Of course breathing is important but once one develops proper breathing habits, the breath should be forgotten, eg. allowed to breath itself. As important as breathing is, too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. In my opinion and experience, there is nothing magical about jin, nothing that can't be explained by physics and careful observation. The most difficult part is having the patience and persistence in practice as there are no short cuts.