What is fajin, 發勁?

[ChiDragon]

 

Chen Xiaowang is performing fajin, there is no muscle strength at work?

[Forestgreen]

An olympic level weight lifter has a lot if muscle strength. 

 

Any fajin in that? 

 

Are most taiji practitioner saying they focus on the gym, or are they saying they are focusing on sensitivity, timing, stuff like that? 

Stuff relevant for,  lets say, relevant areas in the brain that have to optimize their function?

Edited September 8 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

An olympic level weight lifter has a lot if muscle strength. 

Muscle strength is not necessary is fajin，rather it is fali(發力). Fajin is also using the muscles to perform by a Taiji practitioner but the li is a tremendous force that was identified as Jin.

[ChiDragon]

35 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Are most taiji practitioner saying they focus on the gym, or are they saying they are focusing on sensitivity, timing, stuff like that? 

Stuff relevant for,  lets say, relevant areas in the brain that have to optimize their function?

There are practitioners at different levels with a limited amount of understanding. Each one has a story to tell.

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

are they saying they are focusing on sensitivity, timing, stuff like that? 

Focusing on sensitivity is called 懂勁，it is feeling the strength of the opponent while their hands are in contact.

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

There are practitioners at different levels with a limited amount of understanding. Each one has a story to tell.

Noone would disagree with this statement.

[ChiDragon]

15 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Noone would disagree with this statement.

Of course not, each has a different story to tell as always the case.

[Forestgreen]

A proven ability to fajin makes the storyteller more believable  though. 

Which technically disqualifies me, unless we discuss physiology which is within my area. 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

A proven ability to fajin makes the storyteller more believable  though. 

Which technically disqualifies me, unless we discuss physiology which is within my area. 

Let's discuss physiology which is within your area. I love to hear your story.

[Forestgreen]

In this case, it would be my post four hours ago.

[Master Logray]

On 9/3/2024 at 3:34 AM, ChiDragon said:

@forestofclaritysaid:

"{Interestingly, I've been "fajined" by at least two people. One felt very physical, both to me and the person performing it. It felt like the person was using leverage and muscular elasticity to "snap" me back into the wall. Earl Grey posted a video some years ago and it was just like that. This person learned it outside of Dwai's school. 

 

The other felt very energetic, again to both giver and receiver. This one felt like a ball expanding and propelling me up and back into the air (the technique was press, which I thought was a BS move). I do think there is a muscular/physical leverage type of fajin, but there is also something completely different. This person was within Dwai's school. 

******************************************************************************************************************************

 

 

It is very good for you to take on the task of explaining Fajin.    If I don't recall wrongly, people here have not shown much interest in the Taichi Fajin (i.e. leverage and muscular elasticity as above).    They are much curious about the 2nd type - supposedly energetic one.   Are you going to look into that too?

 

 

 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Perhaps no one knew what it is nor what to look for. Even they found something close to it, then, they want to find a way to deny it. Since you say Jin is not muscle strength, I will close my eyes with my mind opened. On my next practice, I will lighten up my muscles just for you. Peace! ✌️

Or maybe they don’t care for what (if any) explanation scientists have.
 

Knowing if they follow certain process and with the guidance of a competent teacher they develop Jin, might be sufficient for them. A critical part of the process includes clearly the letting go of physical/muscular strength. So if you are letting go of muscular strength, there is no reason to believe that muscular strength is involved in fajin, and automatically eliminates any need to consider mitochondrial density and ATP

and other explanations for the power generated. 
 

Let me give you my formula -

 

Qi condensed into bone marrow ==> Jin. 
Where, Qi != Breath 

Jin != mitochondrial density in muscle tissues 

Here’s my proposal to those who want to explore this phenomenon — 

 

For anyone to develop real Jin, they must start with the premise that the ancients/elders who wrote about Qi and Neijin were not blithering idiots who made up things in their ignorance. They need to trust the testimony of the preceptors - when certain phenomena are described as being the consequence or certain practices, they should try to follow those practices with sincerity to see if it causes the effect advertised.

 

It would be a very good idea to go a teacher who can show them practically how it works first - getting “bounced” by a teacher who has Jin is a very good idea. All my teacher’s students (myself included)  started that way (and most of us have developed Jin and can apply it on demand). Odds are if your teacher doesn’t show you hands on what it is that they’re teaching, they don’t have it. 
 

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. If one steps off in the wrong direction, they will be lost soon. Maps have been available in the form of the instructions, and guides (GPS) in the form of teachers. Find a good teacher and let them guide you. 

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Qi condensed into bone marrow ==> Jin.

I have never encountered this outside of Master Liao’s school except for possibly White Crane. Is this set out in classic sources or oral tradition only?

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

They are much curious about the 2nd type - supposedly energetic one.   Are you going to look into that too?

My friend, thank you for your kind words. There is one, and only one, kind of Jin. People just have different notions about it. Based on the opinions of the people and their understanding, I don't think there is a need to going on any further. I guess they had already made up their minds and no one can change. I will rest at that. At least, I have it documented. Hopefully, one day someone will understand what I was saying. Thank you very much!

[ChiDragon]

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I have never encountered this outside of Master Liao’s school except for possibly White Crane. Is this set out in classic sources or oral tradition only?

Don't worry, you will be hearing a lot more stories like that in the future. Like I said, everybody has a different story to tell. It will become true to a beliver. Peace!

Edited September 8 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

48 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I have never encountered this outside of Master Liao’s school except for possibly White Crane. Is this set out in classic sources or oral tradition only?

 

I think Mark Rasmus takes a similar stance to be honest. Would need to check this

 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Or maybe they don’t care for what (if any) explanation scientists have.

I had mention that once already.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

So if you are letting go of muscular strength, there is no reason to believe that muscular strength is involved in fajin, and automatically eliminates any need to consider mitochondrial density and ATP

Why should I have a reason not to believe it. It is documented all over the internet. It is a very good source of reference.  Why not learn something from it instead of ignoring it?

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

I have never encountered this outside of Master Liao’s school except for possibly White Crane. Is this set out in classic sources or oral tradition only?

As far as I know, only Master Liao seems to discuss/reveal this openly. I've heard other IMA teachers refer to this, but I'm not certain about its source. 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Let me give you my formula -

 

Qi condensed into bone marrow ==> Jin. 
Where, Qi != Breath 

Jin != mitochondrial density in muscle tissues 

Here’s my proposal to those who want to explore this phenomenon — 

Is this a phenomenon. I thought a phenomenon is something that is observable.

Edited September 8 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Why should I have a reason not to believe it. It is documented all over the internet. It is a very good source of reference.  Why not learn something from it instead of ignoring it?

Feel free to believe what you want; who am I to stop you?  

If it gives you the strength to effortlessly carry 80% of your body weight, why not? However, it is not the same as the taiji Jin I know (as taught by my teacher), cultivate, and apply. As I acknowledged earlier, different systems have different definitions of Jin. 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Is this a phenomenon. I thought a phenomenon is something that is observable.

Yes, you can observe it empirically by practicing it.

 

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

As I acknowledged earlier, different systems have different definitions of Jin. 

All human bodies are functioning the same way. We all breathe, but some people may not breathe the same way. Learning a better way to breathe will prolong once lifespan. Deveoping Jin is not system dependant. In other words, no matter what system one practice, the end result is still the same in a body.

Edited September 8 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Just now, ChiDragon said:

The human body functions the same way. We all breathe, but some people may not breathe the same way. Learning a better way to breathe will prolong once lifespan. Deveoping Jin is not system dependant. 

It can be if what Jin means varies from system to system. For example, you claim it is muscular energy enabled by a high density of mitochondria. In the system I practice, it is energy stored within the bone marrow (let's leave it at this for the sake of simplicity - though it is far more and goes into more of what you will likely call "fiction")

 

How you apply it will be different from how I use it, and its effect will be different for the issuer and the recipient.

 

For example, if someone gets a really sudden and violent push or strike from muscular action, the recipient will feel a definitive sense of impact, and the issuer will feel the recipient's weight. 

 

When what I call Jin is issued, the recipient will feel only the point of contact, and the result will be visible in their physical displacement (when applying what is called long power). It might feel like a wind lifted them off their feet and physically moved them through a distance (could be several feet). The issuer will not feel the recipient's weight (depending on how advanced they are, they can feel like 4 oz or 5 lbs or 10 lbs, etc). 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

, it is energy stored within the bone marrow

As far as I know, no energy can be stored as specified by physics. The energy in the mitochondria only generated in few seconds by the contraction of the muscle. As soon the muscles relaxed, ATP energy will be gone. It will generated again on the next contraction.