What is fajin, 發勁?

[Cobie]

52 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

[CD quoted Dwai, “it is energy stored within the bone marrow”.]
As far as I know, no energy can be stored …

I agree. All this ‘bone marrow storage’ might be based in mistranslations of 烏肝 (raven’s liver) and 兔髓 (rabbit marrow).

 

~~~

烏肝 wu1 gan1 

兔髓 tu4 sui3 

 

 

Edited September 8 by Cobie

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… People just have different notions about it. …  I guess they had already made up their minds and no one can change.

Yes, it’s rare for people to change their minds. 

 

Quote

… At least, I have it documented.

Yes, I think that’s important.

 

Quote

Hopefully, one day someone will understand what I was saying. …

You never know. Some years back I finally understood something a therapist had told me 35 years earlier. 
 

 

Edited September 8 by Cobie

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I agree. All this ‘bone marrow storage’ might be based in mistranslations of 烏肝 (raven’s liver) and 兔髓 (rabbit marrow).

 

 

Not really - that’s not what I said (or meant). 

As I’ve said earlier - I’m about as deep as one can be in “science” - I’m an engineer by training, a computer engineer by profession.

 

But,  I have to admit where science is limited - primarily because of the materialist paradigm where it operates from. There are entire areas of our lived experience that science has no explanations for, such as even defining what consciousness is.  

 

Most of what we encounter with Internal arts such as taiji are in the realm of the consciousness and mind, not necessarily in the realm of biology. There are far more advanced applications of Jin than fajin (float, sink, etc) - if you can’t actuate real Jin, all those things are out of your reach. You could of course say, that it is mistranslated or misunderstood. But that’s basically a cop-out in my humble opinion.  

[Shadow_self]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not really - that’s not what I said (or meant). 

As I’ve said earlier - I’m about as deep as one can be in “science” - I’m an engineer by training, a computer engineer by profession.

 

But,  I have to admit where science is limited - primarily because of the materialist paradigm where it operates from. There are entire areas of our lived experience that science has no explanations for, such as even defining what consciousness is.  

 

Most of what we encounter with Internal arts such as taiji are in the realm of the consciousness and mind, not necessarily in the realm of biology. There are far more advanced applications of Jin than fajin (float, sink, etc) - if you can’t actuate real Jin, all those things are out of your reach. You could of course say, that it is mistranslated or misunderstood. But that’s basically a cop-out in my humble opinion.  

 

The proof is in the pudding  

 

Most people who deny internal things like Fa jin or Fa Qi , just havent encountered it

 

Worse again, is those would rather believe it isnt real, because it would involve a monumentous breakdown of their belief system.

 

These are often the folk I see who critique it, but refuse to engage it (im looking at you, Fajin Project)

 

Everyone thinks its not real, until you show them. But this has to be in person. It has to be felt imo.

 

Though qi emission can be done on inanimate objects when the density is great enough  

 

And its definately, definately not related to crows liver or rabbit marrow.

 

Those are neidan terms, and related to something else entirely 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

But that’s basically a cop-out in my humble opinion.

I am glad you said that. Somebody else might take it for granted but I have my reservation on it. It sounds like all Chinese talks I heard in my life. I know if I ask any Chinese teacher, one will snow me with anything. I won't take it for granted but verify it with modern science.

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think Mark Rasmus takes a similar stance to be honest. Would need to check this

 

Do you know his background? Seems like he has a lot of overlap with Master Liao's teaching. I don't think he was at the Chicago school, though. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

As far as I know, only Master Liao seems to discuss/reveal this openly. I've heard other IMA teachers refer to this, but I'm not certain about its source. 

 

I did it a little when I was with the school, but not since. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, TBH. Nathan Brine says that Liping goes the other direction, increasing shen -> increase qi -> increase jing. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I did it a little when I was with the school, but not since. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, TBH. Nathan Brine says that Liping goes the other direction, increasing shen -> increase qi -> increase jing.

The way you/we learned it initially, is what my teacher says “the initial way” to do condensing, but the thing is, we have to learn to do it that way first, but the method needs to be refined/adjusted by a teacher later.  
 

The way I see what he means by “initial way” is like jump-starting a car with a battery pack. Once the jumpstart happens, we don’t need to keep doing it that way. Many people don’t persevere long enough to learn the refined way. 

 

Specifically, the initial condensing is the yang way, and refined condensing is the yin way. 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Do you know his background? Seems like he has a lot of overlap with Master Liao's teaching. I don't think he was at the Chicago school, though. 

 

Marks bakground? I tihnk he posted a bit about it. Lets take a look

 

 

Chris Hennes and to a lesser extent, Roger Cotgreave 

 

But Mark has a background in Wing Chun and Hermetics also so, I imagine theres that

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Nathan Brine says that Liping goes the other direction, increasing shen -> increase qi -> increase jing. 

 

Yes, this is my understanding also. WLP prefers to work top down these days. You're expected to have the foundations in place

 

In my opinion its very hard to work WLP's formost people unless they are doing some of the YJJ type work alongside it.

[forestofclarity]

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Marks bakground?

 

I believe he's talking about Master Huang. A quick search turned this up:

 

Quote

Huang Sheng-Shyan was born in 1910 in Minhou County of the Fujian province in Mainland China. At the age of 14 he began his life-long career into the ‘Martial Arts’ by learning Fujian White Crane from Xie Zhong-Xian, in which he first became renowned. In 1947 he resettled in Taiwan where he became a disciple of Cheng Man-Ching. 

White Crane + Chen Man Ching + Taiwan. Master Liao was born in Taiwan in 1948. Parallel sources? Although Mark's style is clearly colored by Bardon. 

 

I would note that I believe Damo and Adam both have studied the Master Huang lineage (also under Mark IIRC). 

 

Hmm....

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I believe he's talking about Master Huang. A quick search turned this up:

White Crane + Chen Man Ching + Taiwan. Master Liao was born in Taiwan in 1948. Parallel sources? Although Mark's style is clearly colored by Bardon. 

 

I would note that I believe Damo and Adam both have studied the Master Huang lineage (also under Mark IIRC). 

 

Hmm....

 

Yes Marks Tai Chi is from Master Huang, but I think the names I mentioned is who he got it thtough

 

It wouldnt surprise me if Master Liao's was a similar line of teaching, but I have no idea

 

Adam and Damo did some time with Mark. Damo's history with Taiji is a long one. But the little Taiji ive done is the Huang system

 

It seems its the Hunyuan methods  are the ones he keeps for his closer students

 

I enjoy Marks presentation of it to be honest. Hes very good at pointing out little intricacies in a comprehensive but concise manner

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

White Crane + Chen Man Ching + Taiwan. Master Liao was born in Taiwan in 1948. Parallel sources? Although Mark's style is clearly colored by Bardon. 

 

The details around this are murky, but I suspect that Cheng Man Ching and Master Liao probably shared a teacher (at some point in time). ML always claims that CMC was a friend and that he didn't study under him.

 

From what I've heard, the White Crane part is dubious -- I've asked my teachers about it, and they have said there's no influence of White Crane per their knowledge (my current teacher started studying with ML in 1972). But I've heard other people claim that he was using White Crane. Master HSS was a white crane master before meeting CMC and becoming his student.

 

I see a lot of similarities between what Mark teaches and what I've learned from my teacher (especially some of the advanced topics). 

[forestofclarity]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

influence of White Crane per their knowledge

 

Right. The combination may have occurred before Master Liao learned it. It may have been presented to him as traditional and/or Taoist Tai Chi. Or it may have older roots, who knows? 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Damo's history with Taiji is a long one.

 

And complicated. 

 

[Shadow_self]

39 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Right. The combination may have occurred before Master Liao learned it. It may have been presented to him as traditional and/or Taoist Tai Chi. Or it may have older roots, who knows? 

 

 

And complicated. 

 

 

Oh dont worry, Im more than familiar

 

But im not a taiji person, I just enjoy the drills for opening  and connecting the body.

[Nintendao]

 

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Chen Xiaowang is performing fajin, there is no muscle strength at work?

 

That not Sending, that Rooting. No less impressive though!

I bet Dwai knows a way to move him

 

 

19 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

An olympic level weight lifter has a lot if muscle strength. 

 

Any fajin in that? 

 

Are most taiji practitioner saying they focus on the gym, or are they saying they are focusing on sensitivity, timing, stuff like that? 

Stuff relevant for,  lets say, relevant areas in the brain that have to optimize their function?

 

Yup giant muscles can produce and withstand a ton of energy, but lack the flexibility and continuity needed to dispense force harmonically.

Anyway I though this might be useful: 

Quote

Musculofascial action potentials can be generated from several sources other than mitochondrial ATP. Here are some key sources:

 

1. **Creatine Phosphate**: This is a high-energy compound stored in muscles. It can quickly donate a phosphate group to ADP to form ATP, providing a rapid but short-term energy source for muscle contractions².

 

2. **Glycolysis**: This anaerobic process breaks down glucose to produce ATP. It occurs in the cytoplasm and does not require oxygen, making it useful during short bursts of intense activity. Glycolysis produces a net gain of 2 ATP molecules per glucose molecule²³.

 

3. **Oxidative Phosphorylation**: While this primarily occurs in the mitochondria, it is worth noting that it involves the electron transport chain and chemiosmosis to produce ATP. This process is highly efficient and can generate a large amount of ATP, but it requires oxygen¹.

 

4. **Stored ATP**: Muscles have a small amount of ATP stored that can be used immediately for muscle contractions. However, this supply is very limited and only lasts for a few seconds².

 

These mechanisms ensure that muscles have a continuous supply of ATP to maintain contraction and relaxation cycles.

 

Source: Conversation with Copilot, 9/8/2024
(1) https://quizlet.com/326129370/muscle-metabolism-muscle-tension-flash-cards/
(2) https://iu.pressbooks.pub/humanphys/chapter/skeletal-muscle-metabolism/
(3) https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy_and_Physiology/Anatomy_and_Physiology_(Boundless)/9%3A_Muscular_System/9.4%3A_Muscle_Metabolism/9.4A%3A_Muscle_Metabolism

 

Edited September 9 by Nintendao
hyperlink

[ChiDragon]

52 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

That not Sending, that Rooting. No less impressive though!

I bet Dwai knows a way to move him

 

I wouldn't challenge Chen Xiaowang if I were you. Nor anyone else! Please don't get Dwai into trouble.

Edited September 9 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

2 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Right. The combination may have occurred before Master Liao learned it. It may have been presented to him as traditional and/or Taoist Tai Chi. Or it may have older roots, who knows? 

Possible. Or maybe it is possible that it is indeed Taoist tai chi as practiced by the monk who taught ML. I’ve heard the term “Southern Taoist” mentioned a few times in this context. 

[ChiDragon]

59 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

Anyway I though this might be useful: 

Quote

 

I thank you, my man. I think we are in resonance in cell respiration and ATP energy. I wish practitionrers should pay more attention to modern science to understand what is taken place inside the body biologically and physiologically. It would be definitely help to appreciate the health benefits from the practice. It don't matter what system that is, one cannot avoid the coordination of movement and breathing. Abdominal breathing that is.

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Nintendao said:

An olympic level weight lifter has a lot if muscle strength. 

 

Any fajin in that? 

No, there is no fajin in that. Weightlifter only use the muscles to fali, 發力, just to support the weight.

Taji practitioner can use the muscle to Fajin to hold something in place or send something away. The magnitude of force is strictly in control of the practitioner. The amount of force determines how far does the object is to be sent away.

Edited September 9 by ChiDragon

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

No, there is no fajin in that. Weightlifter only use the muscles to fali, 發力，just to support the weight.

Taji practitioner can use the muscle to Fajin to hold something in place or send something away. The magnitude of force is strictly in control of the practitioner. The amount of force determines how far does the object is to be sent away.

How does the muscles differ between a weight lifter and a taiji practitioner?  

 

A weight lifter can certainly hold a weight in place or send it away. 

 

Both are likely to have good blood circulation in the muscles, and functional mitochondria. 

 

From that, the main difference between them should be somewhere else in the system. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

How does the muscles differ between a weight lifter and a taiji practitioner?  

Introduction to muscle conditions with mitochondrial dysfunction.

The growth of interest in mitochondrial research over the last decade is related to the knowledge that mitochondrial content and function exhibit plasticity in response to changes in metabolic energy demand. Exercise is a stimulus that is well known to induce increases in mitochondrial content within skeletal muscle. However, decrements in mitochondrial content and function can also take place, forcing muscle to derive a greater fraction of its energy from glycolysis during the stress of energy demands. Such decreases in mitochondria are readily apparent in muscle fibers subject to chronic disuse, providing evidence that muscle activity is critical to maintenance of a normal, healthy mitochondrial pool. 

The above explanation shows the effect of exercise between Taiji and weightlifting on the mitochondrial density.
 

 

Ref: https://journals.lww.com/acsm-essr/Fulltext/2021/04000/Exercise_Is_Muscle_Mitochondrial_Medicine.1.asp

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

A weight lifter can certainly hold a weight in place or send it away. 

 

Both are likely to have good blood circulation in the muscles, and functional mitochondria. 

 

From that, the main difference between them should be somewhere else in the system. 

In the Chen Xiaowang video, the demo was to have Chen stays within the Taiji circle while the weightlifter is pushing him. The weightlifter is pushing Chen by Fali(發力). However, if Chen has not practiced Taiji, he would be just using Fali(發力) to defend himself. Thus he would have had been pushed out the circle in no time. Chen is a master of the Chen style Taiji. He had used his Fajin(發勁) ability. Indeed, he stayed in the circle during the whole time of the competition. He almost went out of the circle though.

There is a difference in blood circulation. The weightlifter is required to hold up the weight, for some time, by muscle contraction. It will cause vascular constriction until the weight was dropped. However, a Taiji practitioner always have the muscles relaxed. Vascular constriction takes place only during Fajin. During Taiji practice, the contraction and relaxation of the muscles will have a much better the blood circulation. It is because during muscle relaxation, the blood goes into the artery from the heart. During the muscle contraction, the vascular constriction of the vein helps to squeeze the blood return to the heart.

Those are the difference between the two systems.
 

Edited September 9 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

How does the muscles differ between a weight lifter and a taiji practitioner?  

 

A weight lifter can certainly hold a weight in place or send it away. 

 

Both are likely to have good blood circulation in the muscles, and functional mitochondria. 

 

From that, the main difference between them should be somewhere else in the system. 

 

The mistake he's making is thinking its muscular because of not fully grasping the separation of the red and white tissue in Taiji practice

 

 

Its the white stuff that needs to be separated from the red stuff.

 

This is where the "hang the flesh from the bones " statement comes from. You relax the red stuff, and move/stress the other stuff under release and stretch

 

Over time, you make the various connections in the "white stuff"  and the "separate muscles" or "red stuff" become connected via that "white stuff", so the white stuff acts like a "wetsuit" and then the body moves as one unit

 

When the white stuff is thickened and built up over time, the internal mechanics can start to open up

 

If you get a good training partner, and you develop some level of sensitivity towatds the "white stuff" you can actually feel it compress and load up like a spring when force is applied to it, if you know how to Song and hold your structure

 

Springs tend to compress  under force and release, and you can access this pretty easily with the right methods of building the internal structure

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Taoist tai chi

 

Yes, and it is possible that the White Crane folks found it and preserved it. For instance, in this excerpt generously translated by TT, they seem willing to recognize and take teachings where they find them. 

 

If I had to speculate, it seems like the vast majority of Tai Chi people are only exposed to the physical aspects. Beyond this, a certain amount are exposed to the energetic aspects. Even here, they are usually taught apart from meditative practices. They remain primarily ming practices-- which I believe is more associated with Southern schools.

 

The next level, the spiritual aspect, it conspicuously absent, but it seems to me that it is present in the Ramus/Liao versions. I would note that a lot of later Daoist texts refer explicitly to Chan schools for the xing aspect as if the Daoist portion lies primarily with the ming aspect. In this case, the Chan schools are often criticized as only teaching xing. Of course, this is only partial since xing and ming aren't really separate (and aren't separated pre-heaven) the same way emptiness/form or Shiva/Shakti aren't really separated. If I had to further speculate, Rasmus may have recovered the xing aspect from his hermetic practice, wheras Liao may get it from the Daoists, others may get it from Chan, others from Advaita, etc.

 

Of course, this is all speculation. 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

What's even more interesting are the parallels I see between Daoist practice and Theravada Visudhimagga samatha/jhana. Brine notes the same order of operations (vibrations/heat/light), however, the focal point is the dan tian as opposed to the breath (a focal point likely transmitted to and retained by the Zen school). If so, this strikes me as using Samkhya samadhi practices and combining them with Daoist health practices to achieve something beyond health and longevity. I've even run into Daoists that espouse Samkhya principles (mind/body duality). The issue of course is that not everyone can reach Visudhimagga jhana, so that path may be beyond the reach of the vast majority and especially lay people. 

 

The further question in my mind is whether they also make the additional steps that Buddhist and Vedanta made-- certainly in the past some did. If I had to further speculate based on my experience, some do and some don't. Brine and Rasmus appear (keep in my mind my view is limited to videos) in their words and physical postures to align more like what I've seen personally in practiced Buddhists as opposed to nearly every other Daoist I've run across (or many Buddhists who get caught up in emptiness). 

 

But again, that's just my opinion-in-progress.

[dwai]

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

What's even more interesting are the parallels I see between Daoist practice and Theravada Visudhimagga samatha/jhana. Brine notes the same order of operations (vibrations/heat/light), however, the focal point is the dan tian as opposed to the breath (a focal point likely transmitted to and retained by the Zen school).

this seems to be similar to the anvopaya method of Kashmir Shaivism - go from the body to higher reality, or Ming to Xing (sort of). 

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

If so, this strikes me as using Samkhya samadhi practices and combining them with Daoist health practices to achieve something beyond health and longevity. I've even run into Daoists that espouse Samkhya principles (mind/body duality). The issue of course is that not everyone can reach Visudhimagga jhana, so that path may be beyond the reach of the vast majority and especially lay people. 
 

I recall something similar too wrt mind/body duality - I suspect it to be a consequence of getting stuck in an in-between stage.  

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

The further question in my mind is whether they also make the additional steps that Buddhist and Vedanta made-- certainly in the past some did. If I had to further speculate based on my experience, some do and some don't. Brine and Rasmus appear (keep in my mind my view is limited to videos) in their words and physical postures to align more like what I've seen personally in practiced Buddhists as opposed to nearly every other Daoist I've run across (or many Buddhists who get caught up in emptiness). 

 

But again, that's just my opinion-in-progress.

ML’s writings (especially his book Dimension One) seems to reflect the AV perspective. Yes, emptiness - but as the pontential source of everything - not as a dead void. 
 

I read Brine’s 1st book on WLP system - I don’t see major ontological differences, but with a few methodological  and some pedagogical differences. Rasmus’ practical methodology seems similar, but pedagogically different in that he uses the hermetic framework. 
 

I look at the differences in pedagogy and minor ontological variations as flavors influenced by cultural contexts. The methods need to be different based on the capabilities of the practitioner.