What is fajin, 發勁?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

One thing worth mentioning is that fajin is not unique to taijiquan.

It is a core technique in xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang, and even wing chun. 

Slow motion forms are primarily found in taijiquan.

I do not agree with the former that fajin is not unique to Taijjquan. I believe that Fajin was greatly emphasized in Taijiquan as oppose to the other arts you had mentioned. However, I do agree the others do Fajin. By definition, Fajin is to exert the maximum force that the body can be generated. That was developed by different forms of exercise from slow to moderate speed. These forms, xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang are done at moderate speed which have the same effect to develop Jin in the body. In fact, Bruce Lee, gave up Taiji and went into Wing Chun. He developed his strength by external practice (Waigong, 外功) . He used weights to train his muscles and used electrical current to stimulate his muscle. All his movements are at fast speed which consumes a lot of his body energy. To avoid wasting his energy, so, he invented his own style called 截拳道 (Jeet Kune Do) which implies with the notion of: anticipate the attack before the opponent initiate the strike. We can see that Bruce Lee always so relax by doing the cha cha moves by jumping back and forth. When he saw the opponent is about to initiate a strike, he moved so swiftly to knock out the opponent. Thu the opponent didn't even know where the strike was coming from or what hit him. The reason I said him is no offense to the ladies. It is because Bruce Lee never hit a woman.
 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

On the other hand, each of these arts places emphasis, to varying degrees, on standing meditation of one sort or another.

I haven't studied all of the above arts but I have trained in taiji, xingyi, bagua, and wing chun. 

I only see that Wing Chun does not develop Jin in the group of training.
 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

In my own experience, standing is one of the most important ingredients in developing fajin, as well as other jin, eg. coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, and so on. It seems this is because standing cultivates song, a strong yet flexible and responsive structure along with mind-body integration.

Standing gives the leverage for the body to Fajin rather than developing Fajin. BTW Fajin is an execution to exert an immense fore.
FYI Coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, sticking-hand and so on are the techniques developed from push-hand that was  practiced by Taiji practitioners.
 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

In my experience, the power of fajin comes from the proper development of the body, listening and sensing skills, timing, whole body coordination through the waist and kua, rooting skill, and perhaps most of all, awareness, which underlies all of the above.

Yes, exactly same as above. Those skills are from the practice of push-hand.
 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

Of course breathing is important but once one develops proper breathing habits, the breath should be forgotten, eg. allowed to breath itself.

Yes, breathing and movements are become natural instinct that give the fast reflex of the body to move swiftly. The practitioner didn't even have to think about the next move.
 

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

As important as breathing is, too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. In my opinion and experience, there is nothing magical about jin, nothing that can't be explained by physics and careful observation.

 

Yes, I agree. Beginners, especially, should not pay too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. The breathing will become natural for someone who is mastered of the art.

Edited September 14 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Doc benway said:

In my opinion and experience, there is nothing magical about jin, nothing that can't be explained by physics and careful observation.

 

@doc benway

Hmmm...

Without trying,

don't you think this might be a hasty assumption!

 

PS

People acquired Jin from practice don't need to understand how it was acquired or explain it.

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I do not agree with the former that fajin is not unique to Taijjquan. I believe that Fajin was greatly emphasized in Taijiquan as oppose to the other arts you had mentioned. However, I do agree the others do Fajin.

 

So we agree, fajin is not unique to taijiquan. 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

By definition, Fajin is to exert the maximum force that the body can be generated. That was developed by different forms of exercise from slow to moderate speed. These forms, xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang are done at moderate speed which have the same effect to develop Jin in the body. In fact, Bruce Lee, gave up Taiji and went into Wing Chun. He developed his strength by external practice (Waigong, 外功) . He used weights to train his muscles and used electrical current to stimulate his muscle. All his movements are at fast speed which consumes a lot of his body energy. To avoid wasting his energy, so, he invented his own style called 截拳道 (Jeet Kune Do) which implies with the notion of: anticipate the attack before the opponent initiate the strike. We can see that Bruce Lee always so relax by doing the cha cha moves by jumping back and forth. When he saw the opponent is about to initiate a strike, he moved so swiftly to knock out the opponent. Thu the opponent didn't even know where the strike was coming from or what hit him. The reason I said him is no offense to the ladies. It is because Bruce Lee never hit a woman.
 

I only see that Wing Chun does not develop Jin in the group of training.

 

Wing chun training does develop jin. 

At least I learned such methods. I studied with a student of William Cheung, Bruce Lee's kung fu brother.

There may be lineages who don't share that part. Some can be secretive. 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Standing gives the leverage for the body to Fajin rather than developing Fajin. BTW Fajin is an execution to exert an immense fore.

 

Standing is necessary to cultivate 鬆

I'm not referring to leverage, I'm referring to the mind-body connection that allows us to cultivate a solid and powerful structure with minimal stiffness and maximum fluidity and responsiveness. You can feel this when pushing hands with someone who stands a lot. You can also feel it when receiving a strike or block from a xingyi or bagua practitioner. Fajin isn't only immense, it is also explosive.

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, sticking-hand and so on are the techniques developed from push-hand that was  practiced by Taiji practitioners.

 

Yes, pushing hands is one way to practice these skills but they also develop from sensitivity and song. 

We also practice these in san da drills. There are analgous jin in xinigyi and bagua as well as yiquan. 

They take different forms, eg xingyi animal forms, bagua palm changes, etc...

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, exactly same as above. Those skills are from the practice of push-hand.

 

Yes, also from circle walking, palm changes, two person partner drills in taiji, xingyi, and bagua, sticking hands in wing chun, standing postures, etc... 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, breathing and movements are become natural instinct that give the fast reflex of the body to move swiftly. The practitioner didn't even have to think about the next move.

 

Agreed

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I agree. Beginners, especially, should not pay too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. The breathing will become natural for someone who is mastered of the art.

 

 

[doc benway]

43 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

@doc benway

Hmmm...

Without trying,

don't you think this might be a hasty assumption!

 

PS

People acquired Jin from practice don't need to understand how it was acquired or explain it.

 

Agreed, we just need to practice really, not worry so much about the theory, whether it be ATP or force vectors.

But in some sense we do need to understand how it is acquired (eg how to practice properly) and how to explain it (the practice).

This is why I don't think it's necessary to worry about magic.

We do the practice, we see the effects.

It does not violate any laws of physics although sometimes it can be shockingly effective.

More often than not that is a consequence of the perfection of timing, targeting, and taking advantage of the opponent's vulnerability. 

 

I once had a student ask me to demonstrate fajin after class.

I did ji at maybe 25% of what I thought would be full power and knocked him back about six feet onto his back.

I hit him harder than I expected although he was fine and really appreciated the experience. 

Part of it was that I was on the spot in front of a class - that gets the juices flowing...

Feeling it is critical to learning what it's really all about and what direction to take your training. 

One method my teacher recommended is to line the walls of a small room with mattresses and practice on each other. 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

So we agree, fajin is not unique to taijiquan. 

 

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I do not agree with the former that fajin is not unique to Taijjquan. I believe that Fajin was greatly emphasized in Taijiquan as oppose to the other arts you had mentioned

 

[ChiDragon]

Most people misunderstood that there are eight types of Fajin. However, there are eight ways to Fajin rather than eight types. At the beginning of the video, it specified that 力(Li) is the fundamental of martial arts(武術). Without Li, then, there is no way that one can make a strike. It was understood that Li, in Taiji, is tremendous strength, immense power, or explosive power(aka Jin). The are eight basic ways to Fajin.

Note: Please note that how the practitioners keeping their balance. They are always standing with a bow stance with the upper torso straight along with the center-line.

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, doc benway said:

nothing that can't be explained by physics and careful observation.

Have you seen the book written by Cheng Man Ching, 鄭曼青. He explained with many colorful geometry diagrams to illustrate how Taiji works with physics. It was written in English. I saw that in a store with a glance at it. I regret now that I didn't buy it at the time.

[doc benway]

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

However, I do agree the others do Fajin.

 

This means it is not unique  to taijiquan.. at least that is how I use the word unique. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

 

This means it is not unique  to taijiquan.. at least that is how I use the word unique. 

Fajin, in the Taijiquan, is unique is because the practitioner do not punch the opponent with the hands. They push the opponent away only. All the others use fajin with their fist to hurt someone by punching. Hence, that is why Taiji is unique.

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Fajin, in the Taijiquan, is unique is because the practitioner do not punch the opponent with the hands. They push the opponent away only. All the others use fajin with their fist to hurt someone by punching. Hence, that is why Taiji is unique.

 

I guess all of the punches in the solo forms and 2 person sets are simply training tools and we’re not allowed to use those in a fight. 

Interesting point of view.

 

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, doc benway said:

Interesting point of view.

Another reason why Taiji Fajin is unique is because a specific name was given to each technique. However, the others do not.

[doc benway]

25 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Another reason why Taiji Fajin is unique is because a specific name was given to each technique. However, the others do not.

 

I guess you are not very familiar with xingyiquan. Each technique has a name and an association with one of the five elements or twelve animals…

[ChiDragon]

54 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

I guess you are not very familiar with xingyiquan. Each technique has a name and an association with one of the five elements or twelve animals…

I knew you will going to come up with that. The five elements are the names given for the basic moves of xingyiquan. Taji has given a name to each basic move too. The Fajin moves are incorporated in the basic moves. However, special names were given to each technique of Fajin for distinction. The taiji Fajin moves may be the same as the basic moves but each with a unique name.

These are the eight unique names for Taiji Fajin 掤、捋、挤、按、采、挒、肘、靠. They may be correspond to the some basic moves with other names.

We have talked about what Fajin is. Now is about time to talk how to Fajin. I think all the system do Fajin the same way. Would you like to going into that?

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[RobB]

This description fits quite closely with how it's been explained to me: Link to forum post

[doc benway]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:46 AM, ChiDragon said:

I think all the system do Fajin the same way. Would you like to going into that?

 

Sure, what makes you think “all the systems do Fajin the same way?”

In my experience, while there are definitely important similarities, different systems emphasize different training methods and techniques which lead to different expressions of fajin. 

[Thrice Daily]

What is Fajin?

 

Stillness + Chi + Movement = Fajin 

 

Add

better Grounding, 

better knitted together joints

better muscular co ordination 

better Kenetic Firing 

better peng and song 

 

better practice and loads of it.

 

and yes @ChiDragon dude, better breathing. 
 

= Better Fajin 

 

but Chi is the great transmission between stillness and movement 

 

it’s where we come from it’s where the material universe comes from.. 

 

it has to come from somewhere. 
think about all the power it takes to power the universe .

 

that’s where Fajin comes from to it gets its power from the same place 

 

CHI - AKA - ENERGY 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:11 AM, doc benway said:

 

Sure, what makes you think “all the systems do Fajin the same way?”

In my experience, while there are definitely important similarities, different systems emphasize different training methods and techniques which lead to different expressions of fajin. 

There is a big difference between Fali(發力) and Fajin(發勁).
Fali is just an ordinary person exerting a force in any way. Fajin is a special technique to exert a force by a Taiji or other martial arts practitioner.

What makes me think that all systems do Fajin the same way is the method of execution to Fajin. The most effective way to Fajin is to turn the waist at the point of execution. It is because by turning the waist will give a torque of the upper torso. The key to Fajin is the torque of the upper body that helps to produce the maximum power of strength.

[Thrice Daily]

In Wing Chun it's called Turning the Horse, it starts from the feet though or even the ground beneath the feet.

 

I gotta ask you @ChiDragon respectfully I have you ever felt Chi, yourself or other people's for example?

 

I ask respectfully, you talk a lot about science but have you never had an experience or a knowing that seemed to defy science?

[ChiDragon]

39 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

What is Fajin?

 

Stillness + Chi + Movement = Fajin 

 

Add

better Grounding, 

better knitted together joints

better muscular co ordination 

better Kenetic Firing 

better peng and song 

 

better practice and loads of it.

 

and yes @ChiDragon dude, better breathing. 
 

= Better Fajin 

Thanks TD!
What you are describing is not Fajin. It is not about what is better, rather it is how to make it more effective for the execution of Faijn. The focus is on turning of the waist to produce a torque of the upper torso to exert the maximum power that the body can give.

[ChiDragon]

41 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

In Wing Chun it's called Turning the Horse, it starts from the feet though or even the ground beneath the feet.

 

I gotta ask you @ChiDragon respectfully I have you ever felt Chi, yourself or other people's for example?

 

I ask respectfully, you talk a lot about science but have you never had an experience or a knowing that seemed to defy science?

Yes, turning the whole body is also a method. However, the pivot point is on the ground. It is not as effective as turning the upper torso. InTaiji, the pivot point is at the waist. That makes the lower body more stable is because the feet are grounded that makes the body more balance and stable. Moving the feet on the ground will make the whole body unstable. The idea of a horse stance is to stand firm on the ground to give the body more leverage. Turning the upper torso at the waist give a better pivot point for the torque. The upper torso is acting like the arm movement of the torque as described in physics. Hence, turning the upper torso is more effective than just moving one arm.

If the energy exerted by the muscles you called Chi, then, yes I do felt the Chi in my muscles. What I had talked about the cellular respiration that the ATP energy was releases by the mitochondria doesn't defy science. That is science. I know that is the energy what people were talking is Chi. Chi is energy, and energy is the ATP energy released by the mitochondria. Call it Chi if you like. It makes no difference to me. I know how my body functions and how it works! Do you?

Edited September 26 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

That’s all I wanted to hear, ChiDragon use the word Chi in a decent manner. Thankyou we can move on now.

 

When I use the word better it has different connotations too.
 

More effective.
 

With the feet first, it’s not quite what I meant, I meant more send the chi down to the earth then back up through the structure 

 

The feet down have to move much, maybe the bones a little and pressure can change, weight can shift. From foot to foot helping add more power through the movement. 
 

The Sacrum power and scapula power, important too no? 

[ChiDragon]

15 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

The feet down have to move much, maybe the bones a little and pressure can change, weight can shift. From foot to foot helping add more power through the movement. 
 

The Sacrum power and scapula power, important too no? 

All power on the body is important. However, body stabilization is more important too. All movements need leverage. Good grounding is a must to have good leverage. The lower body needs to be stabilized by keeping both feet on the ground. It is more effective that way for Fajin while the upper torso in moving. Perhaps I can say stillness in action. In other words, the lower body is in stillness while upper torso is in action(静中帶動).

[Thrice Daily]

That’s good, do you play push hands ever.

 

And practice your Fajin with a partner?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

That’s good, do you play push hands ever.

 

And practice your Fajin with a partner?

Yes, someone had asked me that question before. It's hard to find a partner to do push-hand with me. I do have the experience to know what it is all about. I went to visit a Taji tournament and interact with the senior practitioners to get some good tips on push-hand. I know the westerners do it differently without the true knowledge of it. If you would like to discuss it, you are welcome to it. Perhaps I can hear your side of the story. Thank you!

Edited September 27 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

I like the concept of letting the universe do it

 

Not so much ego.

 

Its like doing something without doing something

 

like having a game of chess at the same time as not having a game of chess

 

Strange.

 

My experience has been like this, lovely because really if I try push hands, I arrive as me with all my judgements and preconceived ideas of who I am and who I think the partner is.

 

Then the more I can let go of all of this , the better the push hands is

 

easier said than done

 

I only tried it a little bit though.

 

and you @ChiDragon ?

Edited September 27 by Thrice Daily