Asking for testimony about Neidan

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/10/2024 at 12:03 AM, Taoist Texts said:

that too, but for starters we gotta know what do all these words even mean 'protecting the semen , multipying qi , to complete the dharma body'.

 

Wait you mean I dont need to store it at -196 C and breathe into it?

 

Gee, what an awful translation...

[Forestgreen]

Neidan, where a text seldom means what it says. 

 

One of many reasons why neidanshu is a mess, and why few process to xianshu.

Edited September 10, 2024 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Cobie]

The character in the text does not refer to ‘semen’.  

Chinese characters refer to a ‘meaning field’ (rather than to exact meaning like English words do), the context narrows it down.

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Cobie

[Cobie]

The texts mean exactly what they say. But some people prefer to fantasise.
 

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Enough said.

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

  On 9/10/2024 at 1:10 AM, Shadow_self said:

Wait you mean I dont need to ....Gee, what an awful translation...

apparently you dont understand what '.protecting the semen' means, let me help you......may be this one is less awful

 

  Quote

 

 

  Quote

For protecting the semen, it is essential to ...

From the Spiritual Discourses of Param Pujya Sant Shri Asaramji Bapu

The Secret of Eternal Youth
Vital Energy is the essence of Your Body. Preservation of it is the key to longevity of youthfulness.

https://www.hariomgroup.org/hariombooks_default/satsang/English/TheSecretOfEternalYouth.htm

 

 

  On 9/10/2024 at 6:12 AM, Cobie said:

The texts mean exactly what they say.

exactly. it is all there in black and white.

  On 9/10/2024 at 6:12 AM, Cobie said:

But some people prefer to fantasise.

yes. most of humans do. it is because the reality is too harsh on them, the poor souls

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/10/2024 at 10:11 AM, Taoist Texts said:

apparently you dont understand what '.protecting the semen' means, let me help you......may be this one is less awful

 

 

exactly. it is all there in black and white.

yes. most of humans do. it is because the reality is too harsh on them, the poor souls

 

I understand exactly what it means.

 

It means someone doesnt know the difference between sperm and essence

 

Semen is not vital essence, Semen contains vital essence

 

A person who practices neidan and knows what they are talking about would understand the distinction

 

The others who never did, are forgiven for their lack of practical understanding.

 

You (according to your self proclaimed status) should know better

 

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Shadow_self

[Apech]

  On 9/10/2024 at 10:31 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

I understand exactly what it means.

 

It means someone doesnt know the difference between sperm and essence

 

Semen is not vital essence, Semen contains vital essence

 

A person who practices neidan and knows what they are talking about would understand the distinction

 

The others who never did, are forgiven for their lack of practical understanding.

 

You (according to your self proclaimed status) should know better

 

 

I go by this ancient teaching from ‘Carry on up the Dantien’

 

”When the fleet is in port the town is full of discharged seamen”

 

 

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 3:53 AM, Forestgreen said:

Neidan, where a text seldom means what it says. 

 

One of many reasons why neidanshu is a mess, and why few process to xianshu.

 

According to the (Chinese) doctor of TCM who's currently teaching me Taoist Internal Alchemy, the number of people who've attempted to walk that Path is:

 

  Quote

like the number of waves of the ocean and the number of those who've succeeded is like the number of feathers on a phoenix or the number of horns on a dragon.

 

 

S/he then made the point that phoenixes and dragons don't actually exist.

 

⚠️ S/he also mentioned that neidanshu/xianshu's an extremely risky endeavour and there's a much safer alternative. ⚠️

 

[Master Logray]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:06 AM, Giles said:

 

According to the (Chinese) doctor of TCM who's currently teaching me Taoist Internal Alchemy, the number of people who've attempted to walk that Path is:

 

 

There were only about 1000 Neidanist before 1949, out of a population of 450 millions.

 

@Taoist Texts   Where do you get the English version of Huang Yuan-ji 's book?  Or you translate yourself?

 

 

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:23 AM, Master Logray said:

There were only about 1000 Neidanist before 1949, out of a population of 450 millions.

 

 

I've no reason to doubt either that assertion (or my spiritual friend's more colourful assertion).

 

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:23 AM, Master Logray said:

Where do you get the English version of Huang Yuan-ji 's book?  Or you translate yourself?

 

 

Interesting book....

[Taoist Texts]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:06 AM, Giles said:

those who've succeeded is like the number of feathers on a phoenix or the number of horns on a dragon.

so s/he is one of them right?

  On 9/10/2024 at 10:31 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

You (according to your self proclaimed status) should know better

sorry what you say does not make any sense because it is irrelevant: whether semen is something else OR it contains that something else, still, when semen is lost its content is lost as well hence the semen must be protected. i hope this reasoning is not too convoluted for you.

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:23 AM, Master Logray said:

@Taoist Texts   Where do you get the English version of Huang Yuan-ji 's book?  Or you translate yourself?

its mine, the published one is not Huang, its  the modern author's fantasy under Huang's name. I put this chapter whole in my PPD if you interested

  On 9/10/2024 at 10:52 AM, Apech said:

When the fleet is in port the town is full of discharged seamen”

Fifteen men of ‘em good and true
Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum
Every man Jack could ha’ sailed with old Pew

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:34 AM, Taoist Texts said:

so s/he is one of them right?

 

Who are "them"?

 

[Taoist Texts]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:41 AM, Giles said:

 

Who are "them"?

 

sorry i was unclear. i will paraphrase in a couple of way, to make my question clear:

Is s/he one of those  who succeeded in Taoist Internal Alchemy?

 

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:06 AM, Giles said:

According to the (Chinese) doctor of TCM who's currently teaching me Taoist Internal Alchemy, the number of people who've attempted to walk that Path is:

 

  Quote

like the number of waves of the ocean and the number of those who've succeeded is like the number of feathers on a phoenix or the number of horns on a dragon.

if s/he is teaching something s/he must have succeeded in what s/he teaches, right?

so did  s/he  succeed in Taoist Internal Alchemy or not?

 

thank you;)

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:48 AM, Taoist Texts said:

sorry i was unclear. i will paraphrase in a couple of way, to make my question clear:

Is s/he one of those  who succeeded in Taoist Internal Alchemy?

 

if s/he is teaching something s/he must have succeeded in what s/he teaches, right?

so did  s/he  succeed in Taoist Internal Alchemy or not?

 

thank you;)

 

As far as I can tell, s/he's entirely competent to teach me Taoist Internal Alchemy, as I wouldn't be her/his student otherwise, would I?

 

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:34 AM, Taoist Texts said:

sorry what you say does not make any sense because it is irrelevant: 

Well it does, but, you dont understand. Which is ok

 

  1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

whether semen is something else OR it contains that something else, still, when semen is lost its content is lost as well hence the semen must be protected.

 

The jing isnt protected by not losing sperm. Thats perhaps the most partial understanding of it one could have, but would be unsurprising if the sole source of ones information is books

 

It starts being "harmed"  long before any type of ejaculation happens, and under many different circumstances

 

Its protected by not allowing the substance to go through its usual routine, which is many steps prior to that, and often has nothing to do with semen or sex at all

 

  1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

i hope this reasoning is not too convoluted for you.

 

I think the term you are looking for is lacking, and partial, which I believe to be the case

[Taoist Texts]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:52 AM, Giles said:

As far as I can tell, s/he's entirely competent to teach me Taoist Internal Alchemy, as I wouldn't be her/his student otherwise, would I?

i am not sure  but it seems you are unwilling to answer my question which is fine. thank you!

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:29 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

hmm lets see:

first it says : taoist inner alchemy

then it says: Huang's guide to meditation. So alchemy is meditation now? 

is 'guide to meditation' a title of a Huang's book?

then it says based on TTC. So on TTC or Huang?

then it says: Ge Guolong. so Ge or Huang?

and of course this mishmash goes through a western  translator who surely is an expert on Huang.

  On 9/10/2024 at 12:00 PM, Shadow_self said:

the substance ... has nothing to do with semen

sure, if you say so

  On 9/10/2024 at 10:31 AM, Shadow_self said:

Semen contains vital essence

sure, if you say so

Edited September 10, 2024 by Taoist Texts

[Shadow_self]

  On 9/10/2024 at 12:10 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 So alchemy is meditation now? 

 

It should form a part of it yes.

 

  30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

then it says based on TTC. So on TTC or Huang?

 

Pretty sure what he's saying is what Huang is talking about is also related to the DDJ, which is linked to meditation also, , so hopefully that joins the dots for you

 

  30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

then it says: Ge Guolong. so Ge or Huang?

 

Pretty sure Ge put it together, and Mattias translated it into English

 

  30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure, if you say so

 

 

If youre going to quote me, do it honestly instead of attempting to chop and change a conversation to suit your normal strategy of avoiding topics you cant speak on please

 

 

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 12:10 PM, Taoist Texts said:

i am not sure  but it seems you are unwilling to answer my question which is fine. thank you!

 

 

Sorry! 🙏🏻

 

Was a bit preoccupied with needing to empty the dog and get to the shop before it ran out of organic milk.

 

To clarify: the answer to both your detailed questions is: "Yes", but... I obviously need to qualify that with "as far as I'm able to determine at this point" (because I'm still a student of Taoist Internal Alchemy rather than a lineage holder (in this particular school)).

 

However, that still leaves hanging the question of "what is the goal of Taoist Internal Alchemy?"

 

So, having now (hopefully 🤞🏻🙏🏻) answered your question, I'd appreciate a bit of quid pro quo:

 

So, what is your own answer to the question of what is the goal of Taoist Inner Alchemy?

 

[forestofclarity]

This:

  On 9/10/2024 at 6:10 AM, Cobie said:

Chinese characters refer to a ‘meaning field’ (rather than to exact meaning like English words do), the context narrows it down.

 

Is not the same thing as this:

  On 9/10/2024 at 6:12 AM, Cobie said:

The texts mean exactly what they say. But some people prefer to fantasise.

 

English words do not have exact meanings. Meaning also depends on context. One word may have several denotations, and additional connotations. Not to mention words definitions drift over time. Linguists have tried to create a more exacting language and failed. 

[Taoist Texts]

  On 9/10/2024 at 2:07 PM, Giles said:

quid pro quo:So, what is your own answer to the question of what is the goal of Taoist Inner Alchemy?

yes thanks again. The goal is two-fold: the eventual one  - is a spiritual immortality in dharma-body or -golden body, it is realized when the spirit in the said body disposes of the physical body; the necessary one (without which there is no alchemy) - is the creation of a new energetic object: the elixir , the medicine, the embryo.

  On 9/10/2024 at 2:07 PM, Giles said:

"as far as I'm able to determine at this point"

all you need to do is to ask your teacher: do you have the elixir? Its a simple yes or no question.

  On 9/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, Shadow_self said:

If youre going to quote me, do it honestly

so honestly, in your school - is the semen ejaculation: A) disregarded B ) discouraged C) encouraged? Its a simple mult-choice question.  

[Master Logray]

  On 9/10/2024 at 11:34 AM, Taoist Texts said:

its mine, the published one is not Huang, its  the modern author's fantasy under Huang's name. I put this chapter whole in my PPD if you interested

 

 

I have the book but want to know how the terms are translated into English. 

 

The original book was DDJ/TTC, Master Huang Yuan Ji (he was very important) translated/annotate/explain it into modern classical Chinese with reference to cultivation.  Ge GuoLong is a professor who translated the translation into contemporary Chinese.  So the Mattias further translated Ge's translation of Huang's translation into English.

 

Ge Guolong is well versed in alchemy.  But he is too academic.  For us, we prefer a more technical translation and/or deciphering. 

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Master Logray

[Giles]

  On 9/10/2024 at 2:38 PM, Taoist Texts said:

yes thanks again.

 

No problem. 😊

 

  On 9/10/2024 at 2:38 PM, Taoist Texts said:

The goal is two-fold: the eventual one  - is a spiritual immortality in dharma-body or -golden body, it is realized when the spirit in the said body disposes of the physical body; the necessary one

 

"Spirit" (Shen) is already immortal, as is shakti (Chi/Qi), which you may realise if you stop to consider the matter a little more deeply.

 

  On 9/10/2024 at 2:38 PM, Taoist Texts said:

all you need to do is to ask your teacher: do you have the elixir? Its a simple yes or no question.

 

Appreciate the gratuitous advice 🙏🏻,  however, I don't actually need to do that because I've chosen instead to follow my friend's instructions with a view to validating their practices on the basis of first-hand direct knowledge (as opposed to the theoretical basis upon which you appear to be basing your advice).

 

[Forestgreen]

  On 9/10/2024 at 3:02 PM, Giles said:

 

"Spirit" (Shen) is already immortal, as is shakti (Chi/Qi), which you may realise if you stop to consider the matter a little more deeply.

From unmanifest to manifest, shakti is split up in components ( that's describedin one of the yoga upanishads).

One possible process we are bickering about reverse ( @ChiDragon ) that process. 

It kind of involves the red "substance".