Asking for testimony about Neidan

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Why do you think this is controversial?

 

If I had to guess, because Damo is using "pre-celestial" in a relative way instead of in an ultimate way. Evidently, in the oral tradition, multiple versions are used (not unlike various forms of Buddhism where terms are more refined depending on the context). So some people may listen to this and say it is not neidan it is neigong. 

 

Also because it is Damo. 

[MIchael80]

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

 

If I had to guess, because Damo is using "pre-celestial" in a relative way instead of in an ultimate way. 

 

Also because it is Damo. 

Hi!

I cannot follow you.  What do you mean he is using it in a relativ way and not absolute? 

[forestofclarity]

3 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

relativ way and not absolute? 

 

Because it has form. 

[MIchael80]

3 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Because it has form. 

Ah ok...understood!

Yeah i also was suprised that he equated the jade fluid with yuanjing. 

 

[Sahaja]

3 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Quite a good and advanced clip 

Why do you think this is controversial?

1. Strongly held views by people on this and related topics that don’t agree with his views

2. Some of his posts on social media can put people off or appear unnecessarily provacative.(my opinion)
3. He openly critiques some approaches that people are quite invested in (qi gong, yoga, sexual practices, martial arts, breath, intellectualized meditation, visualization,  etc.)

 

Let’s see if our experiment can keep the discussion on item 1. Would be great if people cannot only disagree but can give a specific alternative scenario that replaces it with  justification. 

 

 

 

Edited September 13 by Sahaja
Missed an important point

[forestofclarity]

39 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Yeah i also was suprised that he equated the jade fluid with yuanjing. 

 

It is not unusual for the same terms in spiritual traditions (such as Buddhism and some forms of Daoism) to have more refined and less reified meanings as the student progresses. Which is one reason IMO that strong opinions and ideas literally block progress. 

 

I note how carefully he handles this. It is not something you're creating or trying to accomplish, but something you are aware of in the event it arises. 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

ewww?

愚人不知，以肝为龙，肺为虎，运肝肺之气於脐心，或於丹田，或於黄庭，以为龙虎交媾者，非也。

Stupid people misunderstood this, believed the liver is the dragon, the lungs are the tiger, and transported the qi of lungs and liver to the navel, or to dantian (cinnabar field), or to the yellow court, to couple the tiger with the dragon; which is wrong.

愚人不知，或运心液肾气相交於黄庭为圣胎，或神存中宫为圣胎，或运气后升前降，住於丹田为圣胎者，皆非也。

Stupid people do not understand this: some transport the liquid of the heart to couple with the qi of the kidney in the yellow court and call that the sagely embryo; some guard spirit in the central palace to create the embryo; some transport qi up the back and down the chest to dantian to create the embryo; all of it is wrong.

迷人不知此先天真一之气是生物之祖气，是鸿蒙未判之始气，是混沌初分之灵根，或以元气为先天真一之气，或以丹田呼吸之气为先天真一之气，或以抱一守中为守先天真一之气，或以观空止念为观止先天真一之气。

The confused people do not know that the pre-Heavenly true qi is the ancestral qi that births things, that it is the original qi from before the primordial chaos split, that it is the numinous root before the separation of the chaos. So some believe this qi to be the prime qi; some- to be the breath qi in dantian...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yiming

 

First off. none of that says anything about not building a physical lower dan tien.

 

Try again please

 

Unless you can find me a quote that directly opposes what Wang Mu said (IE you do not build a LDT as firm as a stone) you are just projecting a false narrative

 

But anyway lets take a look and break this down, 

 

Quote

愚人不知，以肝为龙，肺为虎，运肝肺之气於脐心，或於丹田，或於黄庭，以为龙虎交媾者，非也。

Stupid people misunderstood this, believed the liver is the dragon, the lungs are the tiger, and transported the qi of lungs and liver to the navel, or to dantian (cinnabar field), or to the yellow court, to couple the tiger with the dragon;

 

Lets put the whole thing in context, rather than selectively pull things out in an attempt to shape a false narrative

 

Im now posting Cleary's translation (All of it)

 

Taken from  The Inner Teachings of Taoism by Chang Po Tuan with a commentary by Liu I Ming (Trans Thomas Cleary)

 

Quote

Dragon and Tiger Meet

 

The nature of the dragon is flexible; it enlivens beings. Associated with wood , among the trigrams it corresponds to thunder er. This symbolises the flexible essence of human beings. Thunder , though basically yang, is taken as a symbol of flexibility because there is less yang than yin. The nature of the tiger is strong; it kills beings. Associated with metal , among the trigrams it corresponds to lake. This symbolises firm sense in human beings. Lake , though basically yin, is taken as a symbol of strength because there is more yang than yin. When this essence and this sense are separated, they become temperament and emotion, resulting in injury. When they are conjoined they are true essence and true sense, enhancing life. The meeting of dragon and tiger is seeking sense through essence and returning sense to essence, meaning that essence and sense unite. Images such as the maid of the eastern house and the man of the western house joining in matrimony, the eldest son and the youngest. daughter uniting, and metal and wood combining, all symbolise this merging of true essence and true sense. The ignorant who do not know this consider the liver as the dragon and the lungs as the tiger, and say that the mating of the dragon and tiger means cultivating the energies of liver and lungs in the umbilical centre, in the lower abdomen, or in the middle of the torso. This is wrong. What they do not realise is that the energies of liver and lungs are conditioned physical energies; not only can they not be joined into one, but their forced aggregation will, if continued for a long time, produce an ailment that cannot be cured, hastening one’s death. Is that not foolish?

 

I agree with all of this, but you have chosen to misrepresent this (yet again)

 

Because what he is saying actually, is that the dragon and tiger are not the Lungs and the Liver Qi,

 

He is saying that they are governed by the the elements associated with them (Wood and Metal) and making a subtle reference to the Hun and Po also (Yang and Yin Soul)

 

Now, looking at the houtian configuration of hexagrams, because the stage of Dragon and Tiger meeting is one of the movements from Postheaven to Preheaven states

 

 

 

He is saying its not the left and right, or Zhen and Dui, which are the governing elements of the Dragon and Tiger. He's saying its something else

 

And hes right. because the dragon and tiger are not the liver and Lungs.  The dragon and Tiger are here

 

 

 

So what the deal with the Wood and Metal element? Why are they mentioned . Back to the Hun and Po basically, and their relationship to emotions (heart) and desire (kidneys)

 

And of course, none of that challenges anything ive said at all.

 

Of course your partial quoting strategy might fool the unaware, but im familiar with this stuff TT

 

Lets move on 

 

Quote

愚人不知，或运心液肾气相交於黄庭为圣胎，或神存中宫为圣胎，或运气后升前降，住於丹田为圣胎者，皆非也。

Stupid people do not understand this: some transport the liquid of the heart to couple with the qi of the kidney in the yellow court and call that the sagely embryo; some guard spirit in the central palace to create the embryo; some transport qi up the back and down the chest to dantian to create the embryo; all of it is wrong.

 

First and foremost lets get something out of the way.

 

This is the higher up stages of Neidan, its a long way off whats mentioned in the previous paragraph.

 

We were talking about Foundations and id rather we kept it there, so please lets do that for now

 

(If you want to get to the embryo etc, we can certainly do that once we've completed our discussion on foundations) 

 

Lets continue with the physical aspects of Neidan and the foundation stage for now

 

How do we know there is a form stage?

 

Because Chang Po Tuan/Liu YiMing are very clear about it in the same text both you and I are citing.

 

In fact he lists 24 secrets of Alchemy in it

 

Here is secret #1 As in Step 1

 

Quote

TWENTY-FOUR SECRETS OF ALCHEMY

1

Repair the alchemical workshop.

Nourish the temporal; strengthen the physical body.

To nourish the temporal is the point of departure;

When vitality, energy, and spirit are vigorous, one can bear hunger and cold.

Having cultivated the physical body until it is firm and strong,

Giving shelter from rain and wind, it is good for refining the elixir.

 

There is no way around the foundations, and more and more you are starting to convince me you have never been through them

 

Quote

迷人不知此先天真一之气是生物之祖气，是鸿蒙未判之始气，是混沌初分之灵根，或以元气为先天真一之气，或以丹田呼吸之气为先天真一之气，或以抱一守中为守先天真一之气，或以观空止念为观止先天真一之气。

The confused people do not know that the pre-Heavenly true qi is the ancestral qi that births things, that it is the original qi from before the primordial chaos split, that it is the numinous root before the separation of the chaos. So some believe this qi to be the prime qi; some- to be the breath qi in dantian...

 

So this is actually not from the same text, its from elsewhere

 

And moreover, the stage at which preheavenly  true qi is worked with assumes the foundations are complete and the stage of Jing to Qi is complete

 

You appear to not be familair with the foundations (as demonstrated by your own words) so why you bother bringing up things outside of it is beyond me?

 

Sadly, again you are talking about something well beyond the scope of what we started off at.

 

Can we stick to the foundations please? Im asking you for the second time

 

And TT, one more thing, there a bridge between post heaven and preheaven  true qi prior to splitting , and Huang Yuanji spoke  about it in depth

 

So you should know that again, you are not representing the full matter here

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Yeah i also was suprised that he equated the jade fluid with yuanjing. 

 

The intricacies around this are beyond the scope of a public discussion im afraid.

 

However heres a few helpful pointers for the perceptive, and might stimulate some things in ones mind

 

 

 

And as regards to what Damo said about the fullness of Qi, heres the reason why

 

 

Have fun, and  hopefully this topic will go in a better direction with these few sprinkles  

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

First off. none of that says anything about not building a physical lower dan tien.

all right case closed. bye-bye;) 

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Try again please

no

[Shadow_self]

25 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

all right case closed.

 

Ah so all I had to do was point out Liu Yiming /Chang Po Tuan disagree with you to have you do a 180?

 

I guess Taoist Texts doesnt like it when other people actually find disparities between his words and whats in the texts

 

Who knew  

 

Quote

bye-bye;) 

 

Till the next time friend  

Edited September 13 by Shadow_self

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Maybe the real neidan is the friends we make along the way

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-09-12 at 6:53 PM, Taoist Texts said:

sorry you misunderstood what the page means by 'physical body naturally and spontaneously changes,' 

I'll make this easy. I didn't misunderstand this.

I can honestly say that I have no idea what the author is referring to, specifically. 

Maybe the original text gives some examples?

All I can say is that as the text is written, it seems to support Shadow_self's view more than yours. 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

it seems to support Shadow_self's view more than yours. 

i totally agree. it does seem so. 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

I'll make this easy. I didn't misunderstand this.

I can honestly say that I have no idea what the author is referring to, specifically. 

Maybe the original text gives some examples?

All I can say is that as the text is written, it seems to support Shadow_self's view more than yours. 

 

 

Yes, it does you are right

[Forestgreen]

The signs are observed upon the physical body, not within the physical body which would be a better formulation if this referred to a subjective experience. 

 

Shouldn't it be that (within) as well?

I experience (internally observe) some rather profound changes, but have as yet only externally observably changes that could easily be explained by the fact that my dynamic movements are IMA.

 

As far as I can tell, the one mentioned by Wang Mu is internally observable. 

Edited Saturday at 05:42 AM by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

The signs are observed upon the physical body, not within the physical body which would be a better formulation 

the author specifically says in the body. because these changes are not material. the material fantasists are hopelessly stuck in the material flesh, they just want it to be a better flesh, rejuvenated, stronger, hard as stone - thats why they will never get to the spirit. The stone hard DT is a result of a trivial qigong conditioning such rubbing or hitting per Mantak or Yang Jwing Ming's iron shirt/shaolin; OR could be gotten with softer methods -- but in either case It has nothing to do with ND:

Quote

 

I said: “So then is all that is attained, I can say that I have attained the inner strength of Kung Fu? The Qi has sunk, and the lower abdomen is as hard as a stone.”

Mr. Zong said, “No! No! Although your Qi flows through your lower abdomen, if you don’t transform your firmness, you will end up exhausted, and that is not the highest level of achievement of Kung Fu.” I asked again how to transform it?

The master said: “If there is nothing, the reality is empty (rather than fullness). The firmness of the belly is not the true way. 

https://mindfulwingchun.online/difference-between-internal-and-external-kung-fu-schools/

 

 

 

Quote

 

Academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu › 72_Arts_Shaolin

... stomach strength increases, chest and stomach muscles becomes as hard as a stone. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

I experience (internally observe) some rather profound changes

actually that is an excellent sign that they are observed only internally

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

the author specifically says in the body.

 

No they didnt say in the body, they said upon the body

 

 

 

Have you read the sources you post?

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

These changes are not material. the material fantasists are hopelessly stuck in the material flesh,

 

Your own source says otherwise.

 

Heres what the Liu YiMing/Chang Po Tuan text says about the cultivation of the physical body

 

 

Your own sources are contradicting you at the point

 

Ive seen some weak arguments in my time. But this is up there with one of the weakest TT

 

Do better please. You're being blatantly dishonest at this point, denying what your own sources say

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

The signs are observed upon the physical body, not within the physical body which would be a better formulation if this referred to a subjective experience. 

 

Exactly. The change is objective

 

This is why a large volume of sulphur is needed.

 

The Qi is the medium for change.

 

Seeing it upon the physical body means that the bridge between form and formless is connected

 

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Shouldn't it be that (within) as well?

 

I experience (internally observe) some rather profound changes, but have as yet only externally observably changes that could easily be explained by the fact that my dynamic movements are IMA.

 

Once the changes start to show on the physical body, its a sign that its transformation is becoming anchored into being, going  from formless to form

 

, according to both of the systems I work in, more qi would be needed for the internal changes to express externally.

 

@freeform gives an excellent explanation of it here

 

 

Quote

The way Jhannic methods work and the way Tantric (Daoist) methods work actually achieve the same thing but come at it from two distinct directions.

 

The main principle of the spiritual path, in essence, is the absorption of one's consciousness into the next, 'higher body'.

 

The jhannic systems develop concentration to a very high level... It's like developing your level of focus to such a high degree that you're able to zero in on and then absorb fully into your energy body... over time in that state of absorption, the higher body is built.

 

In the alchemical Daoist systems you go a slightly different route - you generate such a dense, thick energy body, that your consciousness effortlessly gravitates to it and absorbs on its own - just like an apple gravitates to the ground.

 

Different traditions work slightly differently - and certain Daoist lines will work from both directions at the same time - they'll develop both the concentration and the energy body (xing-ming) - this is generally the more northern alchemical traditions that make use of meditative practice heavily.

 

In essence they create an energy body that is thick and dense enough for your meditative concentration to easily use it as its point of concentration. This is a methodology that's somewhat safer and more available to a 'householder'.

 

The more Ming-dominant lines are very dangerous, and only available to the gifted few - and only when given the very secretive methods and overseen by a gifted teacher...

 

Similarly the Jhannic Xing-dominant traditions are open to the very gifted who have both strong Qi and natural capability of deep absorption - and they also require complete isolation and full-time retreat (effectively for life). The ones who do well are generally already 'stream enterers' from past lives.

 

Even in the xing-ming traditions, the amount of Qi one has to develop is extraordinary... most people have subtly sensed Qi to some extent - well they have to generate their Qi body to such a density that it feels as real as your physical body... so that you can focus on the light of your Qi body to the same extent as your physical hand for instance.

 

Once you've generated your Qi body... you use that body to generate even more Qi that is more refined - and that helps to create the next body that we then absorb into and develop... and in this way we leapfrog from one body to another. There are 7 such bodies in my tradition.

 

So in essence - we always work on the body that our consciousness resides in...

 

The last point is the important one. You cannot skip the foundations. Whichever tradition it is

 

This is actually the reason why many  Buddhist iterations are not fully operational, as they try to skip a body (from physical to mental) and in the process, create no change that permeates ones being to the point the body transforms.

 

Only those karmically inclined would make real progress (as mentioned past life stream enterers)  would be the exception to the rule

 

At this point, its important to remember, the energetic body is basically an expression of the mental one. So effectively, what we do is reverse engineer body to body

 

This is why Liu YiMing mentioned step '#1 is cultivate the physical body - Repair the alchemical workshop

 

One such change is  happening to me. I have  some  control (but not full), but its been explained to me that as the qi continues to build this will anchor in fully, and eventually, there'll be full control (IE it'll be natural as opposed to spontaneous)

 

The change is both physical and internal (and thats the point)

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

As far as I can tell, the one mentioned by Wang Mu is internally observable. 

 

Wang Mu was the one who mentioned the LDT being as firm as a stone. His lineage is the same as Liu YiMings.

[forestofclarity]

6 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Shouldn't it be that (within) as well?

 

I would say from a Buddhist POV, the physical, mental, and subtle bodies are all connected. A  change in the alignment of the subtle body often has physical and mental components. If it didn't, it wouldn't be useful. Not sure about the Daoists. 

 

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

reate no change that permeates ones being to the point the body transforms

 

Untrue, but free to continue to believe that. 

[Shadow_self]

16 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Untrue, but free to continue to believe that. 

 

I dont need to believe it, friend I have seen it with my own eyes.

 

And theres a  hint at one of the transformations im speaking of.

 

You can literally start to percieve it (not just with the eyes, either)

 

Now you are free to disagree with me, no problem whatsoever  

 

But what Im talking about in this regard is not based on belief, I have to be very clear about that

 

Edited Saturday at 11:09 AM by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

weakest TT

 

Do better please.

happy to oblige;)

23 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Try again please

 

Unless you can find me a quote that directly opposes what Wang Mu said (IE you do not build a LDT as firm as a stone) you are just projecting a false narrative

here you go! 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

Quote

 

I said: “So then is all that is attained, I can say that I have attained the inner strength of Kung Fu? The Qi has sunk, and the lower abdomen is as hard as a stone.”

Mr. Zong said, “No! No! Although your Qi flows through your lower abdomen, if you don’t transform your firmness, you will end up exhausted, and that is not the highest level of achievement of Kung Fu.” I asked again how to transform it?

The master said: “If there is nothing, the reality is empty (rather than fullness). The firmness of the belly is not the true way. 

https://mindfulwingchun.online/difference-between-internal-and-external-kung-fu-schools/

 

 

direct enough for you? lol

 

On 9/13/2024 at 6:57 PM, Sahaja said:

 

Let’s see if our experiment can keep the discussion on item 1.

in this thread he was reported to have a stone-hard DT. yet he never shows it on video. this is a proof that he has a little cult when his followers convince themselves of his non-existent achievement. and they take the description of these achievements e.g ' a stone hard DT' from popular literature. I hope this remark is in line with your experiment's rules.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Sad.

 

Don’t bother wasting your time anymore @Shadow_self

He’s not even quoting his sacred texts anymore, just anything from random kung fu websites that agree with what he says 

 

Edited Saturday at 04:21 PM by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

happy to oblige;)

 

Of course you are

 

Quote

here you go! 

 

Thank you. Lets take a look

 

Quote

direct enough for you? lol

 

You are trying to quote a person famous for martial arts to make a point about Neidan? 

 

Theres 2 problems with this

 

#1 This has nothing to do with Neidan, which is what we are talking about

 

I could already dismiss you based on this, but I wont

 

#2 You've misrepresented him again, based on your lack of knowledge of several things

 

Allow me to clear it up

 

Sun Lutang was a famous martial artist. He was not known for Neidan at all. Specifically, he was know for Taiji

 

Heres two quick points about Taiji

 

#1 It sinks to the feet, before coming back up as Jin.  Sounds right for taiji not to sink to the lower abdomen

 

#2  The "martial dan tian" is not the same as the one used for Neidan. The lower dan tien in Neidan is not the lower dantien in Taiji or Xingyi etc

 

Are you aware of the difference between the two?

 

But before that, how about you answer my last post that you evaded again?

 

You know, the one where your own sources contradict you? 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 06:13 PM by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Sad.

 

Don’t bother wasting your time anymore @Shadow_self

He’s not even quoting his sacred texts anymore, just anything from random kung fu websites that agree with what he says 

 

 

its ok man Im enjoying this spirited conversation with TT

 

 Please tell me if I miss anything here. But from my understandin, to summarize, TT has

 

• Called his own practice fantasy via his own definition of what a practice based on fantasy is
• Posted  multiple sources that support me and contradict him
• Evaded much of what he was asked by me
• Went in the other direction when I asked him why the sources contradict him
• Returned with a quote from a website that discusses martial arts that are not Neidan, from someone who has nothing to do with Neidan

On the plus side, I got to repost some good stuff from @freeform regards why filling the body with Qi is so important from a foundations perspective  

[Sahaja]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

happy to oblige;)

here you go! 

direct enough for you? lol

 

in this thread he was reported to have a stone-hard DT. yet he never shows it on video. this is a proof that he has a little cult when his followers convince themselves of his non-existent achievement. and they take the description of these achievements e.g ' a stone hard DT' from popular literature. I hope this remark is in line with your experiment's rules.

 

Stone hard perineum sounds painful. Hope it’s not catchy.