Asking for testimony about Neidan

[Cobie]

 

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… we have faith so for us, it is a reality …

(from another faith) “Through faith we understand” 

 

[Taoist Texts]

29 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The signs are observed on the physical body

 

Hey , didnt you tell us no physical changes dont occur?

lets find out if it occurs or not. what signs you mean exactly, list a few please?

[Shadow_self]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

lets find out if it occurs or not. what signs you mean exactly, list a few please?

 

You're the one who posted the article that explicity stated the signs were there

 

Before that you outright denied them. Now you want me to list them?

 

If you were sincere in your conversation at the start, you'd probably have gotten a few of them out of me

 

Now you get one, and its already public.

 

Wang Mu : Foundations of Internal Alchemy : P 65

 

Quote

It is said, moreover, that when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a stone; when one's pace is as light as flying; and when, each time one begins to practice, the "source of the Medicine" is lively and brisk, the "celestial mechanism" is unobstructed and flourishing,

 

Theres several accounts of this on the forum.  Ive seen it, so have others.

 

Heres one account of multiple people who've developed it.

 

 

In fact its clearly visible in the video of a  late teacher whos no longer allowed to be discussed on this board

 

But i predict you will have some excuse as to why you either havent got it, or dont wish to believe its true 

 

The truth is people who actually practice the real stuff  know its an objective reality.

 

The rest make excuses

[Giles]

And, entirely unexpectedly, TT hooks him again.

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. 

[Shadow_self]

4 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. 

 

Could you, if possible  be clearer about who you referring to please.

 

[Taoist Texts]

15 minutes ago, Giles said:

And, entirely unexpectedly, TT hooks him again.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

You're the one who posted the article that explicity stated the signs were there

 

Before that you outright denied them. Now you want me to list them?

yes i did. thank you very much. and i wanted you to list them in order to prove that the article states something else completely. You listed 'DT firm as stone'. excellent. it is an impressive, real, post-heavenly qigong achievement. kudos to whoever really achieved.

 

Now lets examine the article. Is  'DT firm as stone there? No. Why? Because the article states something else completely. Yes it talks about a body change but of a totally opposite kind, the one unknown to the outsiders.

 

Secondly: A book states the'DT firm as stone', AND after the book is published someone claimed to have or to see the exact same sign 'DT firm as stone. An astonishing coincidence. Except it is not of course. It is a fantasy based on the book.

39 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

But i predict you will have some excuse as to why you either havent got it,

why? i got plenty of signs myself. my point is not there are no bodily signs. My point is that A) real ND signs are unnknown and not achieved by the outsiders. thats all.

 

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. 

 

so far we are having a pleasant friendly banter..so this is out of the blue to me

[forestofclarity]

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Could you, if possible  be clearer about who you referring to please.

 

 

MOD NOTE: The offending post has been removed and the member notified. 

[Giles]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

❤️😊

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

… The offending post has been removed. 

I saw the post before it was removed, and I’m very glad it’s gone.

 

 

Edited September 12 by Cobie

[Giles]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

This is getting quite sad now, I don’t think I can be bothered anymore.

 

The mental gymnastics here deserves an Olympic gold. Have fun guys, I feel like I’ve wasted enough time.

 

It is indeed tragic.

 

[Rio]

Hahaha

It's interesting what is happening on this sub.

7 pages and almost no one answered me directly.

But the discussion was surprisingly a bit interesting!

I learned indirectly from your debate, so for that thank you all.

 

I'm a bit sad because for me Tao/Buddhism and the practice of Neidan are also a lot about losing our ego. Going so far into spiritual state that we actually experience what is THE reality. And with that experience we would be loosing the boundary of the "I".

And after entering that state, I would believe that any kind of attack would not be able to affect us, because we see things for what they are. I wanted to find a place where this is valued and where people would want that, I hoped it would have been here (a Taoist forum looked like the right place).

That is one of the effect I was looking to build with a Neidan practice, but from your answer I don't really see it :/

I'm really not there yet myself so I will continue to look what can bring me there !

 

If other people wishes to share their testimony, I'm still very much interested by it

Edited September 12 by Rio

[Giles]

4 minutes ago, Rio said:

If other people wishes to share their testimony, I'm still very much interested by it

Edited 2 minutes

 

My personal experience of neidan is that it's a waste of time and energy and that it leads to considerable damage in most, if not all cases.

 

Hope that helps?

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes i did. thank you very much. and i wanted you to list them in order to prove that the article states something else completely.

 

 

We can already see what the article says TT its right here

 

 

There no need for reading into this. The signs are observerd on the  physical body. You want to know what the sign im talking about is?

 

Sure no problem

 

@freeform apoligies for quoting you so much, but I dont think I could say this, only you've already done so

 

Also, to the perceptive, pay attention,

 

 theres a clue in here for those who actually want to learn something. Ive not seen this discussed in public before, and while it slipped past people, it might find new life here

 

 

Quote

True transformation happens later on the path. And the transformation is a lot more literal than metaphorical.

 

In my experience people completely underestimate the vastness of the early stages - always keen to jump ahead without achieving the fundamentals.

 

One of the biggest underestimations is just how much Qi must be cultivated to provide the correct level of ‘sulphur’ for the alchemical process to take place. (A tip for the few with the ears to listen)

 

Qi will build naturally with the ‘cessation of words’.

 

But the Qi must build a lot - there’s the classic 5 depths of Qi - from skin level to marrow level. Each of the 5 need to be full. Most cultivators are able to access at least 3 levels… but very rarely do they fill these three, let alone all 5.

 

You cannot hold much Qi because you haven’t been able to maintain ‘cessation of words’ in your standing practice for long enough.

 

It all happens naturally by itself. No guiding or forcing or compressing… the qi does it all itself. Create the right conditions and the simplest method will take off all by itself with no micromanaging required (indeed, that would stop the process) - just some basic methods and a still, steady, unwavering awareness.
 

Qi can get so dense that it takes on an almost physical form.

 

When this dense level of Qi first entered my hip socket (during sitting practice) there was a massive clung like a dramatic chiropractic adjustment. 
 

Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine… The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up… my skin became plump like a baby’s… my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months… my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle… my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)… my eyes changed colour.

 

This is just Qi doing it’s thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when it’s dense… The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it.
 

When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone.

 

The Dantien itself fills with qi through so many stages too. What one gets through spontaneous movement is a tiny fraction of what ‘full’ is. The density of Qi while at the stage of spontaneous movements is very low - so low that it mostly touches the nerve fibres (hence the shaking and spasming)… until eventually it accesses the channels (which is when most movements stop!)

 

People argue about the Dantien being the size of a golfball or a grapefruit… or it’s your whole abdomen… or it’s at your perineum or no it’s at the solar plexus…

 

it’s all of those - again this issue of context. Context of progress in your process as well as context of what your particular lineage is aiming to do.

 

In many of the genuine alchemical systems I’ve come across, the Dantien changes, expands and contracts in stages… from the light internal humm you get with zifagong to a noticeable sphere as the yin begins to take shape… to filling your full abdominal cavity as the yang builds (and the various organs and tissues inside are filled too) to eventually expanding through the whole body… and more still. These are all stages of the process. With years of practice in between.
 

And this is all prior to any alchemical process (or at least what I call an alchemical process - which involves working with and transforming the fundamental substances of existence)… All this qi stuff forms just one of the required agents or substances.

 

So this is how I know you are being dishonest.

 

You havent even gathered one the required alchemical agents (sulphur)

 

(Theres even another change mentioned, the eyes changing colour)

 

If you had, you'd have experienced these physical changes for yourself, and we wouldnt be having this discussion

 

And thats only one of five agents, I wont even get started on the rest

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

You listed 'DT firm as stone'. excellent. it is an impressive, real, post-heavenly qigong achievement. kudos to whoever really achieved.

 

Lst time I checked that book was called foundations of internal alchemy, not foundations of post heavenly qigong

 

I suppose the author got that wrong too did he? Lets review

 

 

So actually this is a sign that the work of refining jing to qi stage is in action

 

A stage, that by your own admission,  it seems you haven not reached

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Now lets examine the article. Is  'DT firm as stone there? No. Why? Because the article states something else completely. Yes it talks about a body change but of a totally opposite kind, the one unknown to the outsiders.

 

Do we  really need to examine anything? 

 

Based on the above, Im not convinced you have the foundations in place.

 

You dont have the transformative potential of the first ingredient, which is why theres no change happnening

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Secondly: A book states the'DT firm as stone', AND after the book is published someone claimed to have or to see the exact same sign 'DT firm as stone. An astonishing coincidence.

 

Those videos of the person in question were published  long before that book, and you can see them on youtube

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Except it is not of course.

 

Now this would be fine, if you'd inspected it, but you havent, so we can dismiss it

 

When you've gotten off your sofa to check, we'll have a serious discussion, otherwise this comment is founded on nothing other than your speculation

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

It is a fantasy 

 

Given you stated that your own practice is basically just that.

 

And the above demonstration of a lack of understanding of what the foundational stages of neidan training leads to

 

I question how qualified to use the term anymore

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

why? i got plenty of signs myself.

 

I am all ears, honestly

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

my point is not there are no bodily signs.

 

All of the above suggests otherwise

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

My point is that A) real ND signs are unnknown and not achieved by the outsiders. thats all.

 

Quite wrong I'm afriad

 

In relation to what we are talking about above, things  that are not observable by outsiders are either imagination, delusion or else, an experience that cannot reflect in the physical body because the bridge of form to formless (the qi, the sulphur) is not in place

 

[Taoist Texts]

15 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Lst time I checked that book was called foundations of internal alchemy, not foundations of post heavenly qigong

 

I suppose the author got that wrong too did he?

of course he did. Because he says 'it is said', he does not specify who says it. Means it is an unreliable info.

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine… The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up… my skin became plump like a baby’s… my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months… my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle… my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)… my eyes changed colour.

 

This is just Qi doing it’s thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when it’s dense… The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it.
 

When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone.

ok lots of changes which you say are alchemical changes. and i say it is postH qigong.

27 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

And this is all prior to any alchemical process

and then you say they are not alch changes, but prior to alch. So which is it? Are they alch or not alch?

 

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Those videos of the person in question were published  long before that book, and you can see them on youtube

PM me the link with the stone DT if you will   but please understand that a stone belly is a common qigong feat, the chinese performers routinely show it on stage never claiming any alchemy, just plain qigong. i personally witnessed such performance back in the 90ies.

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course he did. Because he says 'it is said', he does not specify who says it. Means it is an unreliable info.

 

Wang Mu isnt wrong in this case. You just havent experienced it

 

Freeform dropped the name of someone, so you could go and see. In fact he alluded to many

 

But we both know if you did that, you'd have to admit you are not where you think

 

So you'll do like you normally do. Remain on the sofa and pretend to yourself you know better

 

No problem  

 

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

ok lots of changes which you say are alchemical changes. and i say it is postH qigong.

 

Actually I was only talking about one change, the formation of the physical LDT

 

And as Wang Mu rightly pointed out, thats a sign the jing to qi stage is in full swing

 

A sign you have unfortunately, never had, and worse yet, deny

 

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

and then you say they are not alch changes, but prior to alch. So which is it? Are they alch or not alch?

 

Its as above. its alchemy  at the point of change because you are gathering the first agent

 

This is why its called  "Foundations of Internal Alchemy"

 

Heres hes listing one of the signs that the process is underway

 

How you gather Qi, the method can be either Neigong or Neidan (i know both methods) but the change is alchemical,

 

As Wang mu pointed out,  at this point this signifies the process is in action (alchemical change)

 

 

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

PM me the link with the stone DT if you will   but please understand that a stone belly is a common qigong feat, the chinese performers routinely show it on stage never claiming any alchemy, just plain qigong. i personally witnessed such performance back in the 90ies.

 

Theres only one person on this forum whos name cannot be mentioned, so you dont need me to PM it to you. You already know who it is and where to find it

 

 Also, Im not talking about a stone belly. I am talking about a physical spherical shaped mass

[Taoist Texts]

20 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

So you'll do like you normally do. Remain on the sofa and pretend to yourself you know better

All right lets sum it up.

 

Your position is that for ND there have to be phys change visible to external observers, eg stone DT. Whereas I, TT, have not achieved anything and dont know anything (which is cool you are welcome to say anything about me.)

 

My position is that any visible change is a postH qigong achievement, which is actually harmful to ND. All the changes that you have listed are long ago described in qigong and MA literature. Moreover they are described in ND texts as examples of wrong practice. There are indeed preH bodily change signs in ND, invisible to external observers, but you and your peers dont know them and have no hope ever achieving them. (sorry for my honesty but truth is always bitter).

 

Thats about it  

 

[Giles]

55 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thats about it  

 

TFFT. 🙏🏻❤️😊

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

All right lets sum it up.

 

Your position is that for ND there have to be phys change visible to external observers, eg stone DT.

 

My position is that if the Neidan practice is going as it should be, the changes made higher up will ripple down

 

You can play verbal gymnastics all you like TT,

 

You might twist words in discussions with people who dont practice, but that wont work with me

 

Quote

Whereas I, TT, have not achieved anything and dont know anything (which is cool you are welcome to say anything about me.)

 

Im not saying anything 

 

• You are the one who stated you have no proof that your practice actually works, and basically labelled it fantasy
• You are the one who demonstrated via your own lack of experience that you dont even have the basic level of neidan practice completed (I had to tell you about the first ingredient) and the signs that things are working as they should)

 

The list goes on (and on)

Quote

My position is that any visible change is a postH qigong achievement, which is actually harmful to ND. All the changes that you have listed are long ago described in qigong and MA literature.

 

All the changes I listed?

 

Dont be silly.

 

I listed one from a neidan book, and you're already in  complete denial about what is considered in authentic schools a foundational achievement for the practice of neidan. 

 

Its written right there, by Wang Mu. Heres his background

 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html

 

 

Tell me again what is yours?

 

In fact I asked you to discuss the one that happens regarding what you call "empty room makes white" and as usual, you avoided  the question,

 

Because you dont know the answer (a reoccuring trend with you)

 

But long before that, during the discussion with freeform and awaken you already showed you didnt know what they were talking about.

 

 

This is just history repeating itself

 

But curiosly, he mentioned, there was one other person on the board who did know about it.

 

Quote

Moreover they are described in ND texts as examples of wrong practice.

 

We've established earlier on, you dont even have a lineage.

 

You're in no  real authoritative  position to comment on texts, which anyway are only augmentative, not primary

 

But in the meantime show me where it says a physical lower dan tien is wrong.  I want to see exactly that statement. Because I showed you exactly where it says, in a neidan text that a LDT as firm as a stone

 

Once youve produced that, then we can take your claim seriously

 

Furthermore, take that same line of argument to the Longment Pai. Seems they are all in agreement on it. I know because I know several people from 4 different strands of Longmen Pai

• All have the exact same developments
• All with abilities you deny
• All with a physical lower dan tien,
• All able to discuss these things at length, and show the physical changes associated.

 

You have none of those, cannot talk about them in proper detail, and in the case of the elixir showed a complete lack of understanding of how to gather the most basic ingredient

 

And TT,  you managed to do that yourself without me  getitng into any of the more esoteric aspects ive been taught

 

You are making yourself look incredibly uninformed and lacking basic knowledge regards  foundations

 

Quote

There are indeed preH bodily change signs in ND, invisible to external observers, 

 

Of course there are changes someone cant see on external observation. 

 

But

 

If you think working with preheaven substances doesnt have  any physical tangible, observable impact visible to others when certain milestones have been hit, you're wrong

 

I mean bloody hell, the Jade fluid is available to others to sample. Its something they do  to check you've got it

 

See, its not so hard.

 

You are either unexposed to it, or in complete denial and being decietful to cover yourself  up

 

Im going to hazard a guess in this case its both

 

Quote

but you and your peers dont know them

 

You were already asked to name a series of changes regards empty room makes white and ran away from discussing it

 

Edited September 13 by Shadow_self

[johndoe2012]

17 hours ago, Rio said:

 

Edited September 13 by johndoe2012

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I mean bloody hell, the Jade fluid is available to others to sample. Its something they do  to check you've got it

ewww?

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But in the meantime show me where it says a physical lower dan tien is wrong.  I want to see exactly that statement.

愚人不知，以肝为龙，肺为虎，运肝肺之气於脐心，或於丹田，或於黄庭，以为龙虎交媾者，非也。

Stupid people misunderstood this, believed the liver is the dragon, the lungs are the tiger, and transported the qi of lungs and liver to the navel, or to dantian (cinnabar field), or to the yellow court, to couple the tiger with the dragon; which is wrong.

愚人不知，或运心液肾气相交於黄庭为圣胎，或神存中宫为圣胎，或运气后升前降，住於丹田为圣胎者，皆非也。

Stupid people do not understand this: some transport the liquid of the heart to couple with the qi of the kidney in the yellow court and call that the sagely embryo; some guard spirit in the central palace to create the embryo; some transport qi up the back and down the chest to dantian to create the embryo; all of it is wrong.

迷人不知此先天真一之气是生物之祖气，是鸿蒙未判之始气，是混沌初分之灵根，或以元气为先天真一之气，或以丹田呼吸之气为先天真一之气，或以抱一守中为守先天真一之气，或以观空止念为观止先天真一之气。

The confused people do not know that the pre-Heavenly true qi is the ancestral qi that births things, that it is the original qi from before the primordial chaos split, that it is the numinous root before the separation of the chaos. So some believe this qi to be the prime qi; some- to be the breath qi in dantian...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yiming

[Giles]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

The confused people do not know that

 

Namaste TT. 🙏🏻

 

On a serious note, I'm actually extremely interested in comparing notes with you.

 

Would you mind starting a new topic (something along the lines of Neidan for Dummies perhaps) in the Teachers & Systems section so that we can, hopefully, dispelled some of that confusion?

 

🙏🏻

 

[Sahaja]

This is test. Am posting something relevant to the topic that will be controversial. Let’s see if we can have a discussion without it’s my way or the highway coming up. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_1m_Kuurou/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

it’s kind of sad when the subject is spiritual and people devolve to trying to prove they are right and drown out the efforts of all to learn. It’s also sad when people are presented with new information they are unwilling to reconsider their views given that the concept of change is at the base of the approach being discussed. Perhaps an acknowledgement to agree to disagree and accepting the reality of different views would be more in line with the topic of discussion if change is unacceptable. Don’t have to hold hands and sing kumbha ya but it’s also pretty ridiculous to argue and resort to anger given the topic. 

[MIchael80]

6 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

This is test. Am posting something relevant to the topic that will be controversial. Let’s see if we can have a discussion without it’s my way or the highway coming up. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_1m_Kuurou/?igsh=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

it’s kind of sad when the subject is spiritual and people devolve to trying to prove they are right and drown out the efforts of all to learn. It’s also sad when people are presented with new information they are unwilling to reconsider their views given that the concept of change is at the base of the approach being discussed. Perhaps an acknowledgement to agree to disagree and accepting the reality of different views would be more in line with the topic of discussion if change is unacceptable. Don’t have to hold hands and sing kumbha ya but it’s also pretty ridiculous to argue and resort to anger given the topic. 

Quite a good and advanced clip 

Why do you think this is controversial?

Edited September 13 by MIchael80

[forestofclarity]

MOD NOTE: Personal insults or attacks on members will not be tolerated. Second insulting post removed and member has been warned.