Dweller/Guardian on/of the threshold

[idiot_stimpy]

Much is spoken about the guardian of the threshold. Some say it appears as a supernatural spectre, others a manifestation of one's past karma trying to pull the soul down. 

 

I'm interested in this subject as the dweller of the threshold has held many questions and interest for many years. The direction I am seeing right now is the dwellers esoteric meaning is man's lower nature which must be overcome in order to bridge the gap to the divine. 

 

Without conquering the lower nature in man one is held down and not allowed to cross over. Hopefully others have a different point of view they can share to add to this discussion.

Edited September 10 by idiot_stimpy

[Shadow_self]

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

The direction I am seeing right now is the dwellers esoteric meaning is man's lower nature which must be overcome in order to bridge the gap to the divine. 

 

Perhaps , instead of lower nature, a better way to see it is a man's rejected nature, which does include parts of himself he rejects eg because of socially introjected rules - but it's not limited to that, it's all of his parts which he rejects. It often includes very creative parts of us as well.

 

4 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Without conquering the lower nature in man one is held down and not allowed to cross over.

 

Integrating is a better way to see it, there's nothing to conquer. Integration doesn't mean succumbing to it, not fighting it. It's about bringing it to consciousness. Without integration, one is held down by himself.

[idiot_stimpy]

Thank you for both your responses. Integration is a great topic of turning towards and embracing. It seems healing and unifying. Unification vs division. 

 

Quote

“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."

 

 

[Nungali]

Well, not to argue against Manly ( even though he was often wrong, out of date, romanticized ....   but the pictures !   ) . The concept above is a bit  .....   'Theosophical' .  And since Manly did use the analogy (or the only example of ? )  Masonry , I might get away with presenting another aspect of this 'threshold guardian ' which is maybe the opposite of that above , that is not internal but external  ... in this case it would the 'Tiler'  . In all ritual he should be there . Certainly in initiation rituals .

 

.... someone's gotta keep the Cowans out .  And you might be tested as to your level before he lets you in .

 

We got two of them up in the sky  (at least )  .... look at Scorpius ..... you might see a scorpion with its claws cut off and given to Libra , but down here, some see two guardians  ( at the rear , in the 'tail' )  mid way are the  club and boomerang they have thrown and in the head are the two law breakers  they are pursuing . The broken law was exactly that , a 'penetration' into an area that should not have been made  ( a woman into a boys initiation circle ) .

 

And they are all over country ;  sacred sites and each threshold of them has a guardian ; if you go there, you better call out . let them know you want to come in, who you are and by what authority you announce yourself  .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Thank you for both your responses. Integration is a great topic of turning towards and embracing. It seems healing and unifying. Unification vs division. 

 

 

 

 

Indeed !  In a way it could be the word that sums up our 'mission' .  Not ech individual mission, but the overall plan .

 

As we hurtle towards Earth for incarnation and our spark passes through the spheres of planetary relationships , each planet or field giving us a certain energy , its our task to integrate  all that  into  a 'self expression'  by 'ironing the bumps out' .

 

And even in a group process the same can be reflected ,  the individual process forming a model for the social (in a magical fraternity  or 'order'  for example )  and that in turn forming a model for the individual .

 

" ....

thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe— See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren!  "

"

[Shadow_self]

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Well, not to argue against Manly ( even though he was often wrong, out of date, romanticized ....   but the pictures !   ) 

 

Yeah the artwork in his books  is really something else   Its probably the only reason I kept the old hardbacks I have  

[Nungali]

In case some dont know to what we refer  ( Cant copy and post here - protected )  , great pic gallery here ;

 

 

https://www.universalfreemasonry.org/en/gallery/secret-teachings

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Augustus_Knapp

 

.

Edited September 11 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

By the Lord of the Flame and the Lightning,
the King of the Spirits of Fire
By the Lord of the Waves and the Waters,
the King of the Hosts of the Sea,
The fairest of all of whose daughters was mother to me;
By the Lord of the Winds and the Breezes,
the King of the Spirits of Air,
In whose bosom the infinite ease is that cradled me there;
By the Lord of the Fields and the Mountains,
the King of the Spirits of Earth
That nurtured my life at his fountains
from the hour of my birth;
 By the Wand and the Cup I conjure;
 By the Dagger and Disk I constrain;
 I am he that is sworn to endure;
 Make thy music again~!

 

[Thrice Daily]

so what is the purpose, goal or skill associated with taking this step? Or subjective and elusive home truths you care not to share.

[Bindi]

To me the guardian of the threshold is that which generates karma, this guardian restrains the spirit or soul from the causal level until it is overcome, at which point the spirit or soul is free to explore and integrate the causal body with the subtle body. 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

so what is the purpose, goal or skill associated with taking this step? Or subjective and elusive home truths you care not to share.

 

Did you mean by   'taking this step'  -  the first step  on the path of initiation  ? 

 

.

Edited November 21 by Nungali

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Did you mean by   'taking this step'  -  the first step  on the path of initiation  ? 

No not really, only if this is what is being talked about here I understand. 
 

Like the automatic spiritual protection we are all born with to keep us relatively safe in most cases. (What we don’t know doesn’t hurt us) 

The force that only really acts upon us as a rule , [following one or breaking one], when we are aware of it as a rule (as in ‘ignorance is bliss’) 

 

Is it this kind of Guardian that is at the beginning, it felt as though it was being suggested that this was something way down the road and not the ‘initial’ encounter found by lay person  before starting their adventures.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

No not really, only if this is what is being talked about here I understand. 

 

I don't understand what you mean . What step then ?

 

 

Like the automatic spiritual protection we are all born with to keep us relatively safe in most cases. (What we don’t know doesn’t hurt us) 

 

Do you mean 'ignorance'  ...  if its 'spiritual protection '   then it would be 'spiritual ignorance '    .   Can you be more precise  ?  Do you have some belief  that it is not the lack of experience (what we dont know yet )  but it  is some 'spiritual protection' we are born with ?  Its an additive and not a lack of accrued experience ? 

 

and regarding 'what we dont know doesnt hurt us ' ??? Do you think babies dont get hurt ?   Or is your idea more focused on the 'ignorance is bliss ' part of things ?    If so we need to understand what 'bliss' actually is ... it isnt something we work for to attain   , like some state of 'samadhi' .

 

The force that only really acts upon us as a rule , [following one or breaking one], when we are aware of it as a rule (as in ‘ignorance is bliss’) 

 

The further I go with this and try to figure out what you are meaning ,  the more I get flummoxed .   Are you saying we are born in ignorance and that is the source or reason of bliss and that is some 'rule' whose force acts upon us as a rule only if we are aware that it is a rule ?      WOW  . I really dont know what you are meaning or asking here  but I did have a convo about bliss last night . A friend was seemingly to be using it as an ultimate desired state . I disagreed with him .

 

To me 'bliss' is certainly an emotive state , it also has implications of 'trance' and comes about by 'subtraction ' ( that is it needs 'avoidance' to be able to exist . Its also a state of 'low awareness ' .  It is circuit 1 of consciousness that is the base of life, the first level ; to move  towards  what 'feeds' life and to avoid what does not . In us it is a consciousness centered in the hind brain , its  base is neuro-somatic and linear , in that it is  restricted to 'one dimensional' , 'backwards forwards'  movement ; the 'fight flight syndrome '  . Its the first basic 'psychological drive' .  It rules us from an early stage in the womb until  some time after birth ;   we move towards what nurture us  (usually at that stage , mother's milk ) and flee  ( or 'attack' ) ... or just cry ,  what we feel is a threat, uncomfortable or really anything   other than  milk and sleep and warm cuddles ... its a desire to return to the womb state , where all is supplied .   So I don't see it as a state  that one should aim for  (  maybe only for rest or recuperation ) .   There is a higher version of it , that isn't wholly emotive , but that is probably even further off topic . . . if I have got off topic.    

 

Is it this kind of Guardian that is at the beginning, it felt as though it was being suggested that this was something way down the road and not the ‘initial’ encounter found by lay person  before starting their adventures.

 

I think I am sort of getting what you mean ;  is the original  guardian  our bliss in ignorance state ? Is our 'guardian' the fact that we have VERY LITTLE knowledge or awareness yet ?   I would say no, that is not a 'guardian '  , its just that you have not developed yet.

.

What is suggested  above as the 'dweller'  is something that comes later  and is an 'encounter' and not considered part of one's own psyche . What I think you are referring to (ignorance is bliss ) is not this process , calling it a guardian really confuses things . .the 'dweller guardian'  is something 'way down the road '  from this initial glimmerings of consciousness .

 

I also cant see how it would be " the ‘initial’ encounter found by lay person  before starting their adventures."  because they haven't started yet ... they are just carrying the 'ignorance' of what they dont know about yet ... and that certainly does not protect one as an adult ... in fact its dangerous .   Mummy aint there to tell you not to stick your finger in the socket   (or try to fix your electric or plumbing without knowing what you are doing)  .   The guardian that it seems is discussed here  is different  and is described above .

 

There could be an analogy though , for example , when one  IS on the path of initiation (and in other processes , even a job at work )  one may be 'protected' by the level you are at .  A floor sweeper has responsibilities , but not the complicated ones of running the company , he is , sorta, 'protected' from that  in that he doesn't have to do that so doesn't need to know about it  . Is this more like what you mean ?

 

However , you might be referring to something else , that does come at birth , that is part of our psychic anatomy  and is not 'ignorant '  and that might be the concept of the 'guardian angel ' 

 

 

which is very different from the concept talked about here    (if this is what you mean ) .

 

That guardian is guarding us  from things  and helping with our nurturing and development , it isnt guarding us by keeping us in a state of womb like ignorance , its the opposite in a way ... the guardian on the threshold is guarding things from us  until we are ready or developed properly . 

 

But I am still not clear on what your 'first step' is you are referring to , if it isnt a step along this path ?

 

[Thrice Daily]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Hmm, it won’t let me quote to answer each part directly. 
 

the ignorance is bliss comment was just intended as is said in English to demonstrate the less we know the better sometimes.

 

The protection I’m talking of might be Guardian Angel , we all have a certain shield don’t we. 
 

Vows, spring to mind with what I was getting at ‘kind of’ like on the Mahayana Buddhist paths . They take vows and understand if they break the vows they will incur downfalls.

 

I think some of this is self fulfilling prophecy. Example I snaked for years and never gave it a second thought, it was part of my healthy human behaviour of being and anything about it being bad I considered nonsense … when I quit smoking and then a little later returned to smoking, I felt bad every cig I had . A lot of the downfall was psychological…

 

i like what you say about this dweller keeping back outer forces from the aspirant until they are developed enough to deal with it. Very cool 😎 

[Nungali]

You can quote anything you want by doing this ;

1. highlight what you want to quote

2. click copy

3 paste it here in quotation marks

 

eg.

 

"  i like what you say about this dweller keeping back outer forces from the aspirant until they are developed enough to deal with it. "

 

I am pretty sure I didnt say that .   I guess you just done understand  what I am saying ,  I am trying to be as direct and correct as I can in expressing what I mean . 

 

and at times I find what you write  difficult to understand ; for example ;   " Vows, spring to mind with what I was getting at ‘kind of’ like on the Mahayana Buddhist paths . They take vows and understand if they break the vows they will incur downfalls."

 

In your post, this just appears , out of the blue like that' with no other context or reference . "What I was getting at " in relation to what ? I have to guess this is the answer to my question about what you meant as a first step .   That one didnt take too long to work out ... if I 'got it right' .    Its good to prefix, like this  ;  "  What I meant about  that  first step was  ... Vows, spring to mind with what I was getting at ‘kind of’ like on the Mahayana Buddhist paths . "

 

I am not being smarmy and correcting grammar and syntax  for the fun of it , some times  you are hard to understand and I think that is because it makes sense to you because YOU understand the connections in your head that you have not written .  Sometimes I have found you   a bit obscure ... I've been trying to break through that .

 

" Miscommunication is the first step along the path to conflict . "  ( said Mercury to Mars ... Mars responded ; "What's that supposed to mean ... do you want a fight ! ? " )

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

No not at at all, you read between the lines quite well. That is often how I write as those who know will understand and those who not know will not be misled.

 

quite right… the vow is pretty much where anything starts isn’t it. It’s a decision in the truest meaning of the word… to cut off from what have been.

 

I think Vow perfectly illustrates this. Once a vow has been made of it is to hold any value or meaning it means a certain cutting off from the previous approach . 
 

“What’s the matter, matter only matters if you make it matter…”Words like this tend to take on a deeper meaning

[Nungali]

Here is a way to 'guardian' baby ;

 

 

 

 

 

Don't   leave baby in bed , with floppy sheets draping over a bed side table with a lit candle on it .

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

Nice imagery , very

[Daniel]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:35 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

Without conquering the lower nature in man one is held down and not allowed to cross over. Hopefully others have a different point of view they can share to add to this discussion.

 

The story that is told, in my faith community, begins:  "Don't say water-water..." when crossing over.  It's a riddle.  Explaining it, sabotages it.  The more it's discussed, the more difficult it is, when confronted with an endless sea ( divinity, Ein-Sof ), not to associate it with water.  If the mind wraps around it, as if it's water, the consciousness immediately returns to here-and-now, the material realm.

 

On 9/9/2024 at 7:35 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

Much is spoken about the guardian of the threshold. Some say it appears as a supernatural spectre, others a manifestation of one's past karma trying to pull the soul down. 

 

I suppose each individual will perceive differently, depending on their cultural context and cultivation practice.  The guardian is not a being, it's a cognitive trap which interrupts the psyche and rejects it, like a bouncer at a bar, from contemplating something which is "unnatural", foreign, and dangerous.

 

Edited November 24 by Daniel

[Daniel]

https://www.talorot.org/dont-say-water-water/

[Daniel]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:35 PM, idiot_stimpy said:

I'm interested in this subject as the dweller of the threshold has held many questions and interest for many years. The direction I am seeing right now is the dwellers esoteric meaning is man's lower nature which must be overcome in order to bridge the gap to the divine. 

 

Something I was taught, which helped me:  Manifestation begins at the bottom.  Emanation begins at the top.  Both are happening simultaneously.  The "lower nature" is rising.  The "higher-Self" is falling.  It's counter-intuitive, in practice.  Going down, is going up.  If one is attempting to work with the lower-nature, it needs to be lifted to a higher-purpose.  Conversely, if one is working with the higher-Self, descending into the essence of one's being is the path to the divine.

[Thrice Daily]

On 21/11/2024 at 10:50 AM, Thrice Daily said:

The force that only really acts upon us as a rule , [following one or breaking one], when we are aware of it as a rule (as in ‘ignorance is bliss’) 

I just watched a movie about a hitman. A women got in front of his male target and threw herself there to save him. He missed a shot and shot the women. It led him into wanting to quit and after making that decision in his heart. His universe changed. 

 

He was then put into situations seeing this sacrifice play out over and over again. But until this point when he was just a hitman he was ignorant to it all.

 

I think the heart and mind functions like this. It may be helpful to see it as a vibration, when your vibration changes , yo uno longer resonate in the same way as you did before for that given thing, and as such the experience and subsequent outcomes of dramatically different.