Internal Power (內功, Neigong) in Martial Arts

[ChiDragon]

It would be interesting to see how does each style train to have internal power. When someone says I practice Neigong, what does it mean? What are they really practicing? Does one select a style of martial arts to practice or just go into something for the training?  Do you think Neigong training is to strengthen the muscles? If not, then, what do you think that all your internal strength come from?

How are these different styles xingyiquan(形意拳), yiquan(意拳), bajiquan(八極拳), liuhebafa(六合八法 ), baguazhang(八卦掌), wing chun(詠春) and Taiji(太極) trained to develop the internal power. Is there anyone who practice one of these styles would like to tell us about how internal force was developed? Thanks!

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Is there anyone who practice one of these styles would like to tell us about how internal force

i do but unless you post a video by anyone showing what you mean by internal force i dont know if we talk about a same thing. so is there  a concrete video?

[ChiDragon]

13 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i do but unless you post a video by anyone showing what you mean by internal force i dont know if we talk about a same thing. so is there  a concrete video?

Yes! Internal force was understood as an immense force(勁) exerted by any part of the body. The maximum power was exerted in the most effective way.
 

 

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes! Internal force is an immense force(勁) exerted by any part of the body.

what you posted is an external physical force. the real internal force is only shown in uncooperative push hands. like this

 

not sure if anyone can spot the difference

 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

what you posted is an external physical force. the real internal force is only shown in uncooperative push hands. like this
not sure if anyone can spot the difference

Is that your final answer?

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

what you posted is an external physical force.

Okay!
How do you define external physical force in your own words? Please don't just give me a video! Thank you!

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Okay!
How do you define external physical force in your won words?

it is such a force which  cannot produce either a sharp, spring-like move OR one which cannot launch an opponent

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is such a force which  cannot produce either a sharp, spring-like move OR one which cannot launch an opponent

So, which one of the styles that you do practice?

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

So, which one of the styles that you do practice?

Zhaobao Taijiquan, naturally

[ChiDragon]

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Zhaobao Taijiquan, naturally

So, 趙堡太極拳, it is! How long have you practiced?
 

 

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

So, 趙堡太極拳, it is! How long have you practiced?

maybe 10-15 years, i do it for health and qi, my fajin cannot even kill a fly, but it is an internal fajin, not hand waving

[ChiDragon]

武當八卦掌 Practiced at moderate speed which is ok to develop Jin in the body.
 

 

[ChiDragon]

XinyiQuan 心意拳 Practice at moderate fast speed.
 

 

[ChiDragon]

Bajiquan(八極拳 ) @3:12 The master is demonstrating the 靠 technique by using the shoulder to Fajin .

@0:41 The Sifu talks about the dantian. Most masters said the strength is coming from the dantain. Regardless,  the abdomen must be contracted inward with a horse or bow stance. It was commonly described as 氣沉丹田(Chi sink to the dantain). At the moment, a deep breath was taken. Since the abdomen was contracted, then, it was known as reverse abdominal breathing(RAB). One should have had noticed, every time, a martial artist always do RAB before making a strike. They said all the energy came from the dantian. However, it is not so, sinking chi to the dantian is to contract all the muscles to exert the internal strength more effectively. Besides contracting the muscles, turning the waist at the point of strike will give a torque of the upper torso. That is the major factor in Fajin. In other words, beside contracting the muscles, torquing the waist is the key in Fajin to exert the maximum power.

PS For those who do not believe in muscle contraction is the key factor in generating the internal strength. Please do not bother to argue. I only believe in science not fictional descriptions of any kind. So, peace in us.

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

liuhebafa(六合八法 ) Practicing at moderate speed.

The exercise this Sifu is doing by just moving to activate all the muscles and joints. Based on the cellular respiration thoery, a slight contraction on the muscles will active the mitochondria to release the energy from ATP. Due the demand of energy, constantly, exercising the muscle, the mitochondria density will be increased in the cells to meet the energy requirement.

BTW Taji has the same effect while the practitioner doing the body movements at a much slower speed.

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Wing chun(詠春) @ 2:37 practice Fajin also. I need to find out how do they develop the Jin in the body from practice.
 

 

Edited September 15 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Okay! I found it, here is how Wing Chun develop the internal power (整勁).
 

Again, by exercising the body muscles and joints will activate all the body cells to function as they should to keep the body intact. It is definitely will increase the internal strength.

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

XinyiQuan 心意拳 Practice at moderate fast speed.
 

 

 

 

I was impressed at 3:24  ..... pushed him so hard he dislodged his dandruff ! 

[Sahaja]

My understanding of waigong (external skill)is using the bodies muscle contractive force and hinge joints together to create energy and movement. It is how we normally interact with the environment though it can be trained to be quite strong. My understanding of Neigong (internal skill)  is learning to generate and transmit energy and movement through the soft tissues of the body generally using release rather than contraction.  It is not how we naturally interact with the environment and requires work to develop.  This skill can be developed generically (building  the yin field in the lower abdomen, opening the tissue and joints,  building channel capability particularly the extraordinary ones, building and learning to mobilize vital energy,  learning to stabilize awareness and turn off some of the body’s natural reactions to application of physical force/stress, building the internal transmission capability -the  internal wet suit, opening specific points and connecting them, etc.) and then applied in individual martial arts based on that art’s philosophy and strategy. This same internal skill can also be brought to bear to support work in the healing arts or in spiritual development. 

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Sahaja said:

My understanding of waigong (external skill)is using the bodies muscle contractive force and hinge joints together to create energy and movement. It is how we normally interact with the environment though it can be trained to be quite strong. My understanding of Neigong (internal skill)  is learning to generate and transmit energy and movement through the soft tissues of the body generally using release rather than contraction. 

Are these concepts you had learned by the word of mouth?

Okay, I know where are these concepts come from. They are from the traditional Taoist and TCM concepts. At the time,  they have no scientific knowledge of biology but only physiology. People still take those traditional ideas for granted. Since I am scientifically oriented, I must deal with modern science to have more positive explanations. I don’t want to be living in a confusing world and accept things as I told.

 

If I don't know anything about muscle contraction, I would go read something about it to be more positive.

PS All the body energy are coming from within the muscles. I don't know how to define external strength, unless, it was an external force. I would define an external force is from an external source, such as an opponent.

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

My understanding of Neigong (internal skill)  is learning to generate and transmit energy and movement through the soft tissues of the body generally using release rather than contraction

this is not bad. the trad picture is that of a bow or 5 bows. but the actual mechanism is closer to a 

wind up crossbow

 

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Sahaja said:

My understanding of Neigong (internal skill)  is learning to generate and transmit energy and movement through the soft tissues of the body generally using release rather than contraction.

Well, generating and transmitting energy is not from learning. When the body moves require muscle strength to support the movements, where do you think your energy is coming from. I know most people will say from Chi. Then, where is Chi coming from? Of course, it is from the universe. By waving the hands and chi will be absorbed into the body. Then chi will surface on the skins to exert as external energy. Is that what you want me to believe? That's great as long it works for you. Believe it anyway you like! I only go with modern science. Peace!

[Sahaja]

19 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Well, generating and transmitting energy is not from learning. When the body moves require muscle strength to support the movements, where do you think your energy is coming from. I know most people will say from Chi. Then, where is Chi coming from? Of course, it is from the universe. By waving the hands and chi will be absorbed into the body. Then chi will surface on the skins to exert as external energy. Is that what you want me to believe? That's great as long it works for you. Believe it anyway you like! I only go with modern science. Peace!

It’s sad that you have spent many years practicing these arts and yet not have a direct experience of qi. It actually comes from deep inside of you and it is not subtle when it shows itself.  Took me a long time and a lot of work to find it.  Hope that one day you find yours. I think you’ll find it quite interesting. 

[Sahaja]

23 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

this is not bad. the trad picture is that of a bow or 5 bows. but the actual mechanism is closer to a 

wind up crossbow

 

Interesting analogy. However mine seems to have had a bump stock added as it will just keep shooting the arrows without reloading. 

[dwai]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:49 PM, ChiDragon said:

PS For those who do not believe in muscle contraction is the key factor in generating the internal strength. Please do not bother to argue. I only believe in science not fictional descriptions of any kind. So, peace in us.

If you know it firsthand, then belief is not necessary. Internal power doesn't come from muscle contraction. 

10 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

It’s sad that you have spent many years practicing these arts and yet not have a direct experience of qi. It actually comes from deep inside of you and it is not subtle when it shows itself.  Took me a long time and a lot of work to find it.  Hope that one day you find yours. I think you’ll find it quite interesting. 

I know many such people who hold on to their theories and ideas. Cognitive dissonance is a difficult thing to deal with.