Internal Power (內功, Neigong) in Martial Arts

[Taoist Texts]

40 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

keep shooting the arrows without reloading. 

thats the analogy the founder of Yiquan used. In his time there was no video. Can you post yours?

[Paradoxal]

On 9/17/2024 at 12:43 AM, ChiDragon said:

Since I am scientifically oriented, I must deal with modern science to have more positive explanations

Why is western science valid, but eastern science invalid?

 

From my understanding of this stuff, limited it may be, most qigong and neigong styles are based off of the science of the shifts between the five elements and yin/yang. This is certainly a science, as it is carefully measured and reproducible using the same methods, but the difference is that the measuring stick used is philosophical rather than physical. Due to this, it is harder to learn compared to western sciences, but is still plenty accurate. 

[ChiDragon]

27 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Why is western science valid, but eastern science invalid?

Western science is explained to the microscopic level,  that's why it is valid. Chinese so-call science is only macroscopic and fictional. 

 

I can use cellular respiration to explain how the body energy is generated. It is by muscle contraction. From the Chinese point of view, energy only known as chi. I cannot find any justification, but only by the word of mouth.

 

PS I am only borrowing western science  to fill in the Chinese missing part. That's all, folks!

Edited Tuesday at 05:39 PM by ChiDragon

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Western science is explained to the microscopic level,  that's why it is valid. Chinese so-call science is only macroscopic and fictional.

It might be worthwhile to explore what categorical frameworks are. Modern science applies a specific categorical framework. Eastern traditions apply a different categorical framework. Neither is necessarily wrong or right. Just different perspectives of looking at phenomena. Usually they serve different purposes and were formulated for different objectives. Depending on where the focus is, one could be looking at the trees (reductionist approach of modern science) while the other could be looking at the forest (wholistic approach of eastern traditions). 
 

I learned a long time ago that we need to compartmentalize in order to enjoy life. When it’s necessary, and where applicable, use science. And then put it away and just live life. 

[ChiDragon]

 I am only borrowing western science  to fill in the Chinese missing part. That's all, folks!

[dwai]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

 I am only borrowing western science  to fill in the Chinese missing part. That's all, folks!

There is an old Indian saying, “if you use a knife to stitch your clothes, all you will end up with are tattered rags.” 
 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 I am only borrowing western science  to fill in the Chinese missing part. That's all, folks!

It’s more like Western science is missing parts that Chinese and other Eastern sciences know of. I’m sure in our lifetime there will be a Western scientist that “discovers” qi and names it after themselves. Will get a Nobel prize for it too.

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Western scientist that “discovers” qi and names it after themselves. Will get a Nobel prize for it too.

I think someone already had a Noble prize for it. I will find his name again to tell you who he is.

[Sahaja]

15 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

It’s more like Western science is missing parts that Chinese and other Eastern sciences know of. I’m sure in our lifetime there will be a Western scientist that “discovers” qi and names it after themselves. Will get a Nobel prize for it too.

Given they have not yet been able to directly observe or measure dark matter or dark energy  which theoretically makes up 95% of all the matter and energy in the universe (or even agree on what it is and whether it even exists), I think it will take them some time to get around to dealing with qi. Of course then they will have to also deal with shen and the list goes on from there!

 

in the meantime I am more than happy to use these terms as heuristics because they are both useful and meaningful in cultivation and reflect my own and others experience quite well. 

[Sahaja]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats the analogy the founder of Yiquan used. In his time there was no video. Can you post yours?

Sorry don’t have a video. However I think it’s in a text from a different tradition  - something like  - let it keep running until it’s done

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Sorry don’t have a video.

no problem. videos usually turn out to be cringe like two senior overweight dudes pushing each other with the remainder of their muscles and gasping for air.AND claiming thats fajin lol hehe;)

[ChiDragon]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I think someone already had a Noble prize for it. I will find his name again to tell you who he is.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Otto-Warburg

 

PS

Does anyone know was there any Taiji practitioner died of cancer?

Edited Tuesday at 06:42 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no problem. videos usually turn out to be cringe like two senior overweight dudes pushing each other with the remainder of their muscles and gasping for air.AND claiming thats fajin lol hehe;)

At least they can Fajin to kill a fly.

Edited Tuesday at 06:38 PM by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

At least they can Fajin to kill a fly.

and yet there are still flies in the world

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

and yet there are still flies in the world

They can't kill them all.

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

They can't kill them all.

they can't kill even one. e.g

On 9/16/2024 at 1:11 AM, ChiDragon said:

Wing chun(詠春) @ 2:37 practice Fajin also.

this is physical force plus cooperation from students who fall down on cue. not FJ

On 9/16/2024 at 12:31 AM, ChiDragon said:

XinyiQuan 心意拳 Practice at moderate fast speed.

here the old master is good at jumping but still hits the student muscularly, putting his foot behind the student's who of course is not resisting. nice trick but not FJ

 

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Does anyone know was there any Taiji practitioner died of cancer?

the one i posted reportedly did

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

they can't kill even one. e.g

This reminds of in my late twenties, I was playing majeong sitting by the wall. A fly was flying around me, by natural instinct, I raised my right palm followed the fly and smashed it against the wall. Ofc that was after few years of practice of Taijiquan.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

here the old master is good at jumping but still hits the student muscularly, putting his foot behind the student's who of course is not resisting. nice trick but not FJ

You are very amusing, I'm glad that you are here. You are very observant. Let me tell you something about Fajin. Fajin is not just using muscles but brain power too. The idea of FJ is to place yourself in the most defensive position. When you strike, you want to have the opponent in an indefendable  position. That is to keep the opponent in an off balance position. It is by putting the foot behind the student who, of course,  cannot resist.

Edited Tuesday at 08:13 PM by ChiDragon

[Paradoxal]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:24 AM, ChiDragon said:

Okay! I found it, here is how Wing Chun develop the internal power (整勁).

...I've never seen anyone in my dojo do this. I'm only level 7, so perhaps there are things I haven't seen yet, but this looks more in line with karate than with WC. Karate generates most of its power from the hips in a twisting fashion such as this, but WC does not rely on this. We *do* have exercises teaching people how to use the hips, but that is very definitely not what I've been shown as Fajin. 

 

On 9/16/2024 at 7:11 AM, ChiDragon said:

Wing chun(詠春) @ 2:37 practice Fajin also. I need to find out how do they develop the Jin in the body from practice.

What was demonstrated here does not line up with what I have been shown as Fajin. In fact, even the practitioners shown are making quite a number of basic mistakes that should have been hammered out early on (the elbows are flaring out, which leaves their stance extremely open to attack; they aren't bending their knees; their opponents are not using any force behind their shots), so I have to question whether or not this is a good example. 

 

On 9/16/2024 at 4:27 AM, ChiDragon said:

 

 

What is shown here is *closer*, but still not what I've seen in WC; this is again, more in line with the way karate generates power. 

From my experience (what I have been hit with personally), Fajin in WC can be exerted from any part of the body, as well as from standing, sitting, or lying down. It can be directed to specific organs or to ignore obstacles.

 

I recall getting hit with a light one while wearing 14-gauge steel armor and getting flung about 9 feet (For reference, I was about 200 pounds at the time, and was wearing about 75 pounds of gear). Sifu was reclining in a mostly-broken office chair at that point and very casually used it from his wrist, with less than an inch of distance between his starting and ending point. The force went right through the armor and focused in on my lungs, making it exceptionally hard to breathe.

 

I have also been hit with Fajin while trying to hold Sifu down with a bearhug from behind (his arms were not free), and rather than sending me flying, it flung my arms off him and made it hard to regain control for a few seconds. 

 

There have also been points where he hits me with sinking Fajin that doesn't move me at all, but causes deep pain. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, cell mitochondria and simple muscular force do not give that level of precision, force, and control. They can let you hit something really hard and break it (ala karate), but they do not count for Fajin. Fajin *must* have an energetic component to it to be classified as such. In fact, each time I've been hit with it or have seen it used, the air itself took on a different quality (it was like the air around us was suddenly electrified, or in rare occasions, deafeningly silent), something I've only seen happening when dealing with strong energetics. Likewise, just before the blow hits, you can feel the energy coming, though it's very hard to describe this feeling. When I've been hit by karate strikes, on the other hand, I have never felt that energy nor that change in the air.    

 

 

All that said, from what I have been taught, WC develops jin using two methods: the Sil Lim Tao form and seated meditation. I have not seen the seated meditation shared online, so I will not be posting it, but it's a very simple posture-based meditation. The Sil Lim Tao, however, has a wonderful video shared by Sigung himself: 

This form, when done a specific way, not only cultivates qi, but also teaches rooting and the applications of different types of force. I've been told of Sigung practicing this so slowly that it took him 9 hours to complete one repetition of the form; from my experience, the bone cleansing version takes at least an hour and a half to do right. 

 

[Paradoxal]

10 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Western science is explained to the microscopic level,  that's why it is valid. Chinese so-call science is only macroscopic and fictional. 

 

Even basic reading on five-element theory (say, yellow emperor's classic of medicine?) should tell you otherwise; yes, it can be applied macroscopically, but it is useful because it applies to both the macro and the micro. This is the basics of the basics. While you naturally cannot learn to use jin or qi from simply reading, having the background knowledge and understanding is key to quick and seamless development when you put the practice in. 

 

In fact, modern quantum physics is starting to run into precision issues because of how western science measures things. These quantum physicists then creatively, completely on their own, come up with things that sound strangely like the interactions between yin and yang! How strange! 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

In fact, modern quantum physics is starting to run into precision issues because of how western science measures things. These quantum physicists then creatively, completely on their own, come up with things that sound strangely like the interactions between yin and yang! How strange! 

Merely a coincidence!

[Taoist Texts]

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

You are very amusing, I'm glad that you are here

yeah me 2! this is the forum for the incredible stories!

16 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I raised my right palm followed the fly

 

7 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

getting flung about 9 feet (For reference, I was about 200 pounds at the time, and was wearing about 75 pounds of gear). Sifu was reclining

wwow! thats so amazing! who is he?! does he have a video of flinging heavily armored heavyweights?!!!

Edited yesterday at 11:22 AM by Taoist Texts

[Thrice Daily]

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

...I've never seen anyone in my dojo do this. I'm only level 7, so perhaps there are things I haven't seen yet, but this looks more in line with karate than with WC. Karate generates most of its power from the hips in a twisting fashion such as this, but WC does not rely on this. 
 

It does greatly. Turning the horse is normal in WC

 

What was demonstrated here does not line up with what I have been shown as Fajin. In fact, even the practitioners shown are making quite a number of basic mistakes that should have been hammered out early on (the elbows are flaring out, which leaves their stance extremely open to attack; they aren't bending their knees; their opponents are not using any force behind their shots), so I have to question whether or not this is a good example. 

That doesn’t sound like WC

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

 

What is shown here is *closer*, but still not what I've seen in WC; this is again, more in line with the way karate generates power. 

From my experience (what I have been hit with personally), Fajin in WC can be exerted from any part of the body, as well as from standing, sitting, or lying down. It can be directed to specific organs or to ignore obstacles.

 

I recall getting hit with a light one while wearing 14-gauge steel armor and getting flung about 9 feet (For reference, I was about 200 pounds at the time, and was wearing about 75 pounds of gear). Sifu was reclining in a mostly-broken office chair at that point and very casually used it from his wrist, with less than an inch of distance between his starting and ending point. The force went right through the armor and focused in on my lungs, making it exceptionally hard to breathe.

 

I have also been hit with Fajin while trying to hold Sifu down with a bearhug from behind (his arms were not free), and rather than sending me flying, it flung my arms off him and made it hard to regain control for a few seconds. 

 

There have also been points where he hits me with sinking Fajin that doesn't move me at all, but causes deep pain. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, cell mitochondria and simple muscular force do not give that level of precision, force, and control. They can let you hit something really hard and break it (ala karate), but they do not count for Fajin. Fajin *must* have an energetic component to it to be classified as such. In fact, each time I've been hit with it or have seen it used, the air itself took on a different quality (it was like the air around us was suddenly electrified, or in rare occasions, deafeningly silent), something I've only seen happening when dealing with strong energetics. Likewise, just before the blow hits, you can feel the energy coming, though it's very hard to describe this feeling. When I've been hit by karate strikes, on the other hand, I have never felt that energy nor that change in the air.    

 

 

All that said, from what I have been taught, WC develops jin using two methods: the Sil Lim Tao form and seated meditation. I have not seen the seated meditation shared online, so I will not be posting it, but it's a very simple posture-based meditation. The Sil Lim Tao, however, has a wonderful video shared by Sigung himself: 

This form, when done a specific way, not only cultivates qi, but also teaches rooting and the applications of different types of force. I've been told of Sigung practicing this so slowly that it took him 9 hours to complete one repetition of the form;

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

 

from my experience, the bone cleansing version takes at least an hour and a half to do right. 

 

Sil lim Tao , the seeds of wing chun.

 

It really is simple to memorise, learn and a great companion for life. 
 

it is nice relaxed, or if you practicing often can make it really dynamic and powerful strength building exercise, especially the three prayers to Buddha, this is like dynamic static strength if you want it. Great stuff
 

You can break first form up and create many drills from it. 
 

(Can I ask if any of you have some short Buddhist literature on first form I’d love to see it again, I had it and lost it. It was apparently written by a monk, and starts with the visualisation of a ball of blue light forming and growing at the elbow, that’s before the three prayers to Buddha section …, the instructions were interesting)
 

Chi Sau though is great too?, did you try it, and it’s precursor Dan Chi?

[Thrice Daily]

Vectors of power or Faijin?

Same?

different?

or inbetween?

[Paradoxal]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

wwow! thats so amazing! who is he?! does he have a video of flinging heavily armored heavyweights?!!!

...I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not lol. Nonetheless, I'm fairly sure he hasn't shot videos of it, as he pretty much never shows anything too amazing publicly (he's *very* careful about who he teaches what, so showing stuff publicly is entirely against his principles), but his name is Sifu Gamel Spencer (https://www.spencerwingchun.com/). When I went searching for the website just now, I found that it's currently broken (he's trying a new online thing and it seems to be from that) but I'm including it anyway for those who come later. He's in the Baltimore area and welcomes most people in, so if you're ever in the area, feel free to call him up! 

 

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

It does greatly. Turning the horse is normal in WC

 

Again, it was never focused on where I came from (key word focused, as we were taught it); things like iron palm and iron fist took more priority. 

 

...Perhaps this is due to a difference in lineage. I'm from the William Cheung lineage, how about you? 

 

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

(Can I ask if any of you have some short Buddhist literature on first form I’d love to see it again, I had it and lost it. It was apparently written by a monk, and starts with the visualisation of a ball of blue light forming and growing at the elbow, that’s before the three prayers to Buddha section …, the instructions were interesting)

If you do find it, please share! This sounds very interesting, so I'd love to give it a try! 

 

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Chi Sau though is great too?, did you try it, and it’s precursor Dan Chi?

Yeah, these are requirements for Level 7. As far as I was taught, they're methods to develop sensitivity, contact reflexes, and structure; basically, it's just conditioning, nothing magical. If anything, I have to wonder why people make such a big deal over them.