Internal Power (內功, Neigong) in Martial Arts

[Thrice Daily]

22 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Again, it was never focused on where I came from (key word focused, as we were taught it); things like iron palm and iron fist took more priority. 

 

...Perhaps this is due to a difference in lineage. I'm from the William Cheung lineage, how about you? 

Ip Man, via Sifu Kwok, I was lucky to spend time with him before he was more famous back in 2000’s when I did a lot more Qigong, I lived quite close by.

 

His quality lesson to lesson changed a lot, I think because of his travelling and continuous training, it was very vibrant and terrific then. 
 

id have loved to train with him when he was even younger though. My kungfu brother knew him 10 - 15 years before me. And got to spend a lot more time with him.

 

I found the system a bit too mechanical and ridged then if I’m honest, but you plant the seeds and they grow if you water them, Sifu energy was very interesting. It was a privilege and honour to train with him back then. 

22 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

 

If you do find it, please share! This sounds very interesting, so I'd love to give it a try! 

Cool 😎 

 

Yeah, these are requirements for Level 7. As far as I was taught, they're methods to develop sensitivity, contact reflexes, and structure; basically, it's just conditioning, nothing magical. If anything, I have to wonder why people make such a big deal over them. 

I think it’s the fun element you know , for me I never used wooden dummy though (yet) not for any period of time. I think this is beautiful , with the wood being such a good conductor for Chi, better than stone and metal right?
 

I think a relationship would develop and great respect and power along with it over the years. I miss my Chi Sau buddies. Right now not playing with anybody. Just shadow boxing and stick flows.

 

I 

22 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

 

 

[Paradoxal]

8 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Ip Man, via Sifu Kwok, I was lucky to spend time with him before he was more famous back in 2000’s when I did a lot more Qigong, I lived quite close by.

 

His quality lesson to lesson changed a lot, I think because of his travelling and continuous training, it was very vibrant and terrific then. 

Oh, I've seen some of what he does, at least in recent times! How would you say that differs compared to his older lessons? 

 

10 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I found the system a bit too mechanical and ridged then if I’m honest

I've noticed this myself, but then I realized that it wasn't the system that was rigid, but me. We're always told to become like water, to flow, to loosen up, but it's not something we're supposed to do in class. Rather, we're supposed to spend time at home working on these things, since class time would be wasted if we just stretched! Since then, I feel I've become much, much more loose.  

 

12 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think it’s the fun element you know , for me I never used wooden dummy though (yet) not for any period of time. I think this is beautiful , with the wood being such a good conductor for Chi, better than stone and metal right?

Ah, I see! Honestly, I've never really found WC to be very much "fun" compared to other martial arts; it is, however, extremely efficient and effective! Perhaps what I'm missing is more chi sao, then! 

 

As for the wooden dummy, it does conduct chi fairly well from my experiences, but I was taught that its primary function is learning to flow. Of course, it *is* fun to send a 100-lb dummy jumping when ya hit it hard, but I find that to be more play than training lol. If ya get a good one, it's also really good for conditioning the arms/legs, as the wood should be quite solid (with some wiggle at the joints). 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

Oh, I've seen some of what he does, at least in recent times! How would you say that differs compared to his older lessons?

 

Very different, but every lesson was very different too. Many times he would be watching only something is pure about his kungfu. He had praying mantis history also. I liked to link arms with him, we are very similar height, so it’s more vibrant somehow. 
I think what was special in his teachings was so much was picked up close to the source in Hong Kong and back when Ip Chun and Ip Ching were very active. I imagine the conversation was very concentrated in terms of coming from the source. Sifu would pass on different tips to students. Even more so in the times of my Kung Fu brother. He had more stories from earlier times, tips and trainings. He used to play around with the long pole, I never seen this in class. 
 

Watch this video very closely, you might see some things hidden in there, maybe maybe not. Try see what happens, have open heart ♥️ 

I would never teach or disclose secrets. I’m not qualified nor do I have permission. You should send him a message though if you feel inclined, he is a nice guy generally speaking 

 

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

 

I've noticed this myself, but then I realized that it wasn't the system that was rigid, but me. We're always told to become like water, to flow, to loosen up, but it's not something we're supposed to do in class. Rather, we're supposed to spend time at home working on these things, since class time would be wasted if we just stretched! Since then, I feel I've become much, much more loose.  
 

Yes of course, I understand. It’s best to treat classes seriously. That is how I always felt.

 

Ah, I see! Honestly, I've never really found WC to be very much "fun" compared to other martial arts; it is, however, extremely efficient and effective! Perhaps what I'm missing is more chi sao, then!

 

There is far more energetic exchange going on that’s for sure. If you look after your energy it is good for everyone. 

 

As for the wooden dummy, it does conduct chi fairly well from my experiences, but I was taught that its primary function is learning to flow. Of course, it *is* fun to send a 100-lb dummy jumping when ya hit it hard, but I find that to be more play than training lol. If ya get a good one, it's also really good for conditioning the arms/legs, as the wood should be quite solid (with some wiggle at the joints). 

Yeah I’d love one, one day maybe. A nice hardwood maybe oak. That would be fab.

 

Have you trained any other martial arts?

 

What kind of supplementary practices do you use, if any, qigong sets etc?

[Paradoxal]

5 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Have you trained any other martial arts?

 

What kind of supplementary practices do you use, if any, qigong sets etc?

This is somewhat of a loaded question, but I'll try to answer it as best as possible. WC is my foundation, my primary art, but Sifu has told me to learn about other arts as much as possible. While studying WC, we often got visits from the grandmaster of Tao Chuan Po, so I have picked up a little from it. However, what I have picked up is applications rather than forms.

 

While I was in Okinawa, I studied Gojo Ryu karate and later got to attend a seminar with Hokama Tetsuhiro-sensei, the current grand master of it. However, more time has been spent learning Motobu Udundi than Goju Ryu. I've learned four forms from Udundi, and each of them has energetics, but I have not been told the intentions behind said energetics. 

 

I don't think it counts as studying, but I have also taken seminars from several grandmaster and master level folks as well, including a grandmaster from a different lineage of WC, a master in ninjutsu, someone from hopkido, and a number of jujutsu and krav maga folks.

 

It's getting late though, so I am heading to bed. I'll give a response to everything else tomorrow.

[Thrice Daily]

55 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

This is somewhat of a loaded question, but I'll try to answer it as best as possible. WC is my foundation, my primary art, but Sifu has told me to learn about other arts as much as possible. While studying WC, we often got visits from the grandmaster of Tao Chuan Po, so I have picked up a little from it. However, what I have picked up is applications rather than forms.

 

While I was in Okinawa, I studied Gojo Ryu karate and later got to attend a seminar with Hokama Tetsuhiro-sensei, the current grand master of it. However, more time has been spent learning Motobu Udundi than Goju Ryu. I've learned four forms from Udundi, and each of them has energetics, but I have not been told the intentions behind said energetics. 

 

I don't think it counts as studying, but I have also taken seminars from several grandmaster and master level folks as well, including a grandmaster from a different lineage of WC, a master in ninjutsu, someone from hopkido, and a number of jujutsu and krav maga folks.

 

It's getting late though, so I am heading to bed. I'll give a response to everything else tomorrow.

Nice , sounds as though you are an invested martial artist. 
 

I’ll have a look out for that little idea document 📃 if it turns up I’ll send it over 👍 

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

As far as I'm concerned, cell mitochondria and simple muscular force do not give that level of precision, force, and control. They can let you hit something really hard and break it (ala karate), but they do not count for Fajin. Fajin *must* have an energetic component to it to be classified as such. In fact, each time I've been hit with it or have seen it used, the air itself took on a different quality (it was like the air around us was suddenly electrified, or in rare occasions, deafeningly silent), something I've only seen happening when dealing with strong energetics. Likewise, just before the blow hits, you can feel the energy coming, though it's very hard to describe this feeling. When I've been hit by karate strikes, on the other hand, I have never felt that energy nor that change in the air.  

Thank you for your valuable comments.
Anyway, the objective of the OP is not how one was trained. It is not how one takes the impact from Fajin. The question was: did the practitioner acquire Jin from the training? Whatever the training was, all practitioner use the same muscles, breathe the same way, use the hips the same way. The main question Is did the practitioner able to Fajin effectively like everyone else. However, everybody do make mistakes in the training, but I wouldn't discredit the ability of the practitioner in Fajin because a mistake was made during training.

In Taiji, the movements are most difficult to follow. However, regardless of the mistakes, the exercise still exercise the body joints and muscles. As I think of it, based on my experience, Taiji is not really a dependent on the precision of the movements. Rather, did the muscle exercised daily. Regardless of precision, the body will have the same  effect by going though the movements even with mistakes. Mistakes may be corrected some place along the line. Before the correction of the mistakes was make, no health benefit was lost.

 

Edited September 18 by ChiDragon

[Elysium]

On 16.09.2024 at 11:27 PM, ChiDragon said:

Then, where is Chi coming from? Of course, it is from the universe

Isn't that post-heaven qi only?

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Elysium said:

Isn't that post-heaven qi only?

The prenatal chi came from your parents. The postnatal chi is from the universe.

[Sahaja]

Here is an example of how internal skill (nei gong) is applied in Baguazhang (one of the 3 main internal martial arts) to develop the body through moving the qi using the eight directions.  The qi is not just a concept or a metaphor for physical activity like breathing… it’s an actual internal pressure that can be quite strongly felt that fills the  area of the body  in the direction it is being sent. Filling and emptying have a literal meaning that can be distinctly felt.  In order to do this basic body method one needs to have done a lot of pre-work (opening laogong, building qi, absorbing the awareness into the body, etc.) using qi gong or a neigong process. Once one learns to apply this internal skill in each palm posture then one learns to apply it in the form sets and applications. 

 

 

[doc benway]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:19 AM, Paradoxal said:

his name is Sifu Gamel Spencer (https://www.spencerwingchun.com/). 

 

It's a small world. 

Gamel and I trained together in Shorinjiryu karate under Kaicho Watanabe Shunji in the 1990's.

This was before he discovered Wing Chun and after I'd left Wing Chun so we never crossed paths in the Wing Chun kwoon. He was a state trooper at the time and a powerful dude and knocked me on my ass and halfway across the dojo on more than one occasion!

His timing was impeccable and he had a long range. I was only able to score on him by getting in close but it was hazardous! 

 

On 9/18/2024 at 11:19 AM, Paradoxal said:

I'm from the William Cheung lineage, how about you? 

 

I'm also from Grandmaster Cheung's lineage. My teacher was John Clayton.

When I was in his school I was one of very few people who had a car, so I was recruited to pick up Grandmaster Cheung from the train station or airport when he'd visit for seminars.

I had the good fortune to get to know him a bit and train with him - what a powerful martial artist he was!

He loved ribs and greens and sweet potato pie and we'd have to take him to one particular barbecue joint in North Ave in Baltimore. 

It was one of the few times I felt safe hanging out on North Ave - it was a rough area in those days.

Doing chi sao with GM Cheung was a revelation and listening to his stories about training with Yip Man and Bruce Lee was really inspiring, I was totally star struck. I still have the mook jong I bought from him in the 1980's though I don't train with it lately. 

...

Now I'm feeling inspired to set it up again!

This post is bringing back some wonderful memories, thank you!

 

On 9/18/2024 at 8:11 AM, Thrice Daily said:

(Can I ask if any of you have some short Buddhist literature on first form I’d love to see it again, I had it and lost it. It was apparently written by a monk, and starts with the visualisation of a ball of blue light forming and growing at the elbow, that’s before the three prayers to Buddha section …, the instructions were interesting)
 

 

I'd be interested too if anyone comes across these. 

I have GM Cheung's book and my notes from training with Master Clayton but never heard of this teaching. 

I haven't trained with my teacher for over 30 years but I still practice Sil Lim Tao regularly

 

[ChiDragon]

33 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Here is an example of how internal skill (nei gong) is applied in Baguazhang

People seems to be by using the misconception of Neigong to explain everything. FYI Neigong is some internal power that has to be developed by a practice for a long period of time. Then, it may be applied. In other words, Baguazhang develops Neigong, not the other way around.

PS
Qigong is a practice rather than something that was developed.

Edited September 21 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

People seems to be by using the misconception of Neigong to explain everything. FYI Neigong is some internal power that has to be developed by a practice for a long period of time. Then, it may be applied. In other words, Baguazhang develops Neigong, not the other way around.

PS
Qigong is a practice rather than something that was developed.

ChiDragon, What is Neigong? 🐢

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

ChiDragon, What is Neigong? 🐢

It is like what the OP says, Neigong is internal power within the human body. It was acquired by any practice method, diligently, for a long period of time. The internal power are exerted by the muscles. Especially, the Taiji practitioner described as Jin(勁). The execution of Jin(勁) is known as Fajin(發勁) .
 

I am going to explain Jin(勁) in the Personal Practice Section.

[Paradoxal]

10 hours ago, doc benway said:

It's a small world. 

Gamel and I trained together in Shorinjiryu karate under Kaicho Watanabe Shunji in the 1990's.

This was before he discovered Wing Chun and after I'd left Wing Chun so we never crossed paths in the Wing Chun kwoon. He was a state trooper at the time and a powerful dude and knocked me on my ass and halfway across the dojo on more than one occasion!

What a small world indeed! I've heard many stories from him about his time in Shorinjiryu! 

 

10 hours ago, doc benway said:

His timing was impeccable and he had a long range. I was only able to score on him by getting in close but it was hazardous! 

 

He always invites people to try whatever they want during classes, and I've literally never seen anyone score anything on him (I've only seen someone manage to block a punch that they knew was coming from him *once*!) Very admirable, in my opinion. 

 

11 hours ago, doc benway said:

I'm also from Grandmaster Cheung's lineage. My teacher was John Clayton.

When I was in his school I was one of very few people who had a car, so I was recruited to pick up Grandmaster Cheung from the train station or airport when he'd visit for seminars.

I had the good fortune to get to know him a bit and train with him - what a powerful martial artist he was!

He loved ribs and greens and sweet potato pie and we'd have to take him to one particular barbecue joint in North Ave in Baltimore. 

It was one of the few times I felt safe hanging out on North Ave - it was a rough area in those days.

Doing chi sao with GM Cheung was a revelation and listening to his stories about training with Yip Man and Bruce Lee was really inspiring, I was totally star struck. I still have the mook jong I bought from him in the 1980's though I don't train with it lately. 

...

Now I'm feeling inspired to set it up again!

This post is bringing back some wonderful memories, thank you!

I've heard stories of Sifu Clayton, but never met him myself. I do envy you for being able to train with Sigung though, as I've not gotten the chance yet! Always hearing about him makes me really want to be able to train with him, but I've heard he's very sick right now, so it doesn't look like it'll ever happen.

 

I'm also glad that it brought back some great memories for you! I was happy to hear some more stories and perspectives about the lineage I'm from too! 

[Sahaja]

17 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

People seems to be by using the misconception of Neigong to explain everything. FYI Neigong is some internal power that has to be developed by a practice for a long period of time. Then, it may be applied. In other words, Baguazhang develops Neigong, not the other way around.

PS
Qigong is a practice rather than something that was developed.

Pursuing internal skill only through practice of the external, physical form can indeed take a very long time - if at all. That’s why many martial arts systems have their own unique process of neigong to supplement their forms that is in addition to and separate from the form. They may not even use that term but that’s what these supplemental practices are for.  These practices build the capability and the external forms are used to mobilize and express the energy. Unfortunately some people don’t know this and just practice the external physical movement forms thinking that something more will arise. In my opinion this is the real misconception. 

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

That’s why many martial arts systems have their own unique process of neigong to supplement their forms that is in addition to and separate from the form

This seems a little vague. I agree that all was said. IMHO Neigong should be resulted from the practice of all the original systems.

I am not aware that there is a supplement of neigong practice for each system. If there is a supplement for Neigong, one can just practice the supplement and why bother with the original form?

 

PS

There may be different levels in each system to enhance the original form. Perhaps each level may be classified as a supplement.

Edited September 22 by ChiDragon

[Sahaja]

On 9/22/2024 at 10:25 AM, ChiDragon said:

This seems a little vague. I agree that all was said. IMHO Neigong should be resulted from the practice of all the original systems.

I am not aware that there is a supplement of neigong practice for each system. If there is a supplement for Neigong, one can just practice the supplement and why bother with the original form?

 

PS

There may be different levels in each system to enhance the original form. Perhaps each level may be classified as a supplement.

From a internal martial arts perspective I am talking primarily about static stance work - wuji, Taiyi, Zhang Zhuang ,Santishi , daishi , other static positions some with various hand mudras or body shapes, etc. this work is static on the outside but on the inside there is movement and changes in physical and energetic structure take place that support internal skill development and build capacity/build qi. There can also be other work as well like seated work or breath work or moving qi gong  or work on opening certain body areas  but the static stance work is the most common. Each style or lineage have developed or adopted those supplemental  practices they feel are most important for their specific art or their specific approach to their specific art. 
 

there is also the neigong process that is not specifically attached to any particular  internal martial arts style  that prepares one for spiritual work/nei Dan/meditative work or medical work but also can provide a foundation for internal martial arts.  it is more in depth, more comprehensive because it focuses only on  internal development rather than having as it’s focus the teaching of a martial art form and applications as well.  

 

Unfortunately I am probably making this sound more organized and standardized than it is in real life but hopefully have made it a little clearer. 

[Vajra Fist]

I recently restarted shotokan, which is probably the dumbest, most external karate style. But it's something I'm most familiar with from my youth.

 

Unlike Okinawan styles, sanchin - which is normally fonsidered the internal engine of karate - isn't taught until much later. 

 

Once I get time though, I'm keen to learn it. I'd be interested if any other bums had experience with it and could speak to its non-martial benefits, if applicable.

 

I know that Kyokushin folks also cross train sometimes in taikiken, which is the Japanese equivalent to yi quan. All very fascinating!

[Thrice Daily]

On 16/09/2024 at 10:27 PM, ChiDragon said:

Well, generating and transmitting energy is not from learning. When the body moves require muscle strength to support the movements, where do you think your energy is coming from. I know most people will say from Chi. Then, where is Chi coming from? Of course, it is from the universe. By waving the hands and chi will be absorbed into the body. Then chi will surface on the skins to exert as external energy. Is that what you want me to believe? That's great as long it works for you. Believe it anyway you like! I only go with modern science. Peace!

I'll give you an example of internal power that is very simple to comprehend. 

 

There is a component of the will, the mind, the intention . 

 

Of course there are muscles, joints, sequential firing, vectors of power and combined forces.

 

But also there is the will for this. The antecedent, mostly it's largely unconcious, but sometimes very conscious. The mind directs its will to the body. 

 

these impulses are deeply internal. Sure it is by way of nervous system firing up. But how fine tuned and improved it becomes with Qigong training. 

 

energy work with the body and breath, it's simple, always it's body and breath. But what precedes movement? 

 

Stillness...

 

and what emerges in this stillness . Your intention of course, this is manifest and makes manifest your movement. 

 

this is internal, this is your qi at work. 

 

you are not seeing the wood for the trees. If you see the body as the body and the movement only as muscles you miss the answer to the puzzle. 

 

that answer is in the stillness and your right science is king, even with this. 

 

Physics. Look how still we can appear when we are in bed sleeping, but we are shooting through the universe at 3000 miles an hour, at least !!! 

 

Look at the wheel on the moving car, it moves so fast...

 

yet what is happening at the centre, from where All movement is issued. 

 

STILLNESS.

 

So both right both wrong at the same time. That's ok that is life. You are right...

 

but so are others, @Taoist Texts @Sahaja say internal power is a thing. Of course it still works through the body. You are right and will always be right.

 

but it's only part of the story @ChiDragon you can't have one without the other, you are forgetting antecedents, every consequence has one, every body has energy that precedes it (predates it even)

 

Just like every movement... It's preceded by stillness, there is a great power there...

 

just like every portion of the universe, including me and you, have movement and stillness...

 

And stars are born and have this incredible power emerging somehow from the centre, We are like that too, and conscious 

 

Savvy?

Edited September 26 by Thrice Daily

[Sahaja]

Its my understanding that it’s yi shi (awareness) rather than yi (intention) that is the key to the neigong process. Intention is more yang and carries a form of mental tension (goals, desires etc) that limits the circulation/expansion of the qi.  Awareness is more passive/receptive (yin) and when fully absorbed inside the body it receives and mixes with the qi deep inside.  When this mixing happens combined with release of residual tension,  the awareness catalyzes the qi and creates movement/expansion of tissue opening your body up from the inside out with physical pressure. Can be quite intense. 

 

The Neigong process is intended to change your body at the physical and the energetic levels and it’s many hours of hard challenging work.  Stillness undoubtedly builds qi inside but you still need to do the work to physically change the interstitial tissues, tendons, nerves, and open the channels  (e.g. through the static work  hanging the flesh off the bones while releasing tension with  receptive awareness catalyzing the qi, etc)  to be able to gather,  mobilize,  distribute and use it. 
 

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, Sahaja said:

yi shi (awareness) rather than yi (intention)

 

Do you mean 識 for shi or some other character? 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Its my understanding that it’s yi shi (awareness) rather than yi (intention) that is the key to the neigong process. Intention is more yang and carries a form of mental tension (goals, desires etc) that limits the circulation/expansion of the qi.  Awareness is more passive/receptive (yin) and when fully absorbed inside the body it receives and mixes with the qi deep inside.  When this mixing happens combined with release of residual tension,  the awareness catalyzes the qi and creates movement/expansion of tissue opening your body up from the inside out with physical pressure. Can be quite intense. 

my teacher characterizes this difference  as “monkey mind” and “spiritual mind”. For something like Taijiquan, we need to “hold” both. The monkey mind in the opposite direction (actively) of the power. The awareness in the direction of power. If we’re moving the power forward, the mind goes in the opposite direction along the ground. The awareness holds the space into which the power flows. 

9 hours ago, Sahaja said:

 

The Neigong process is intended to change your body at the physical and the energetic levels and its many hours of hard challenging work.  Stillness undoubtedly builds qi inside but you still need to do the work to physically change the interstitial tissues, tendons, nerves, and open the channels  (e.g. through the static work  hanging the flesh off the bones while releasing tension with  receptive awareness catalyzing the qi, etc)  to be able to gather,  mobilize,  distribute and use it. 
 

People think standing is easy - anyone who’s practiced standing in posture for extended periods of time can attest to the sheer agony of it (until one learns to release). 

[Sahaja]

37 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Do you mean 識 for shi or some other character? 

Actually I was doing google translate to see if yi could be used for  both intention and awareness to see if I could use the phrase yi leads the qi which is quite well known without the word intention. It came back with yi shi for awareness and yi for intention (so my plan was thwarted).  My understanding is that the yang version of intention (with the acquired mind/your ego/personality tagging along for the ride)  is not what you want leading the qi.   The yin version of relaxed awareness or bare attention soaked into the tissues intermingling and reacting with the qi is what I was trying to describe. Dwai’s description is also good, awareness holding the space. The qi then moves on its own  into the space (with added force  if you also release tension in the space - it can literally knock you off balance)
Haven’t tried sending the monkey mind (yi) in the opposite direction, but it sounds intriguing though it may be beyond my meager abilities  to do both at once. 
 

 

[forestofclarity]

36 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

It came back with yi shi for awareness and yi for intention (so my plan was thwarted)

 

Interesting point I've found: in some of the dharmic traditions, there is a distinction generally drawn between consciousness that is distorted by conditioning (vijnana) and that which is not (jnana or prajna-- jna is also related to the Latin gno- as in gnosis). So even if there isn't an express intention at the surface level, there is underlying conditioning that still has an impact on how the perceptual world is generated and perceived. Vijnana in classical Chinese is typically 識, which is the same part of shi shen or 識神, i.e. the acquired mind. Of course, Daoism makes a distinction between 識神 (shi shen) and 元神 (yuan shen).