What is the dan in neidan and dan tian? 丹

[Taoist Texts]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It was said that I  had gone but returned. It was said that I had lost it but regained it.

these two sentences have a completely identical grammar and subject matter (it=ND), yet you transl them differently. Cleary also messed them up but in a differently naive way: with same grammar but but he mistook the subject for self instead of ND.

 

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

ND

What is ND?

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

it gets beyond complicated

 

I would think it would get simpler as it gets more refined. Complexity seems to be plunging into the 10,000 things. 

[Taomeow]

15 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I would think it would get simpler as it gets more refined. Complexity seems to be plunging into the 10,000 things. 

 

It's sort of both.  First you learn how to unfold an acorn into an oak tree.  Then, how to fold an oak tree into an acorn.  

[Shadow_self]

28 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I would think it would get simpler as it gets more refined. Complexity seems to be plunging into the 10,000 things. 

 

Eh it varies

 

For example, when yout start asking questions like wheres the yellow court, and the answer comes back "it depends", and this tends to keep happening over and over  It just reminds you they really did know how to keep things secret

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

之说  之谓

之说=之谓=it says

Edited September 17 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

What is ND?

dan/neidan

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

之说=之谓=it says

that would be an english expression, not wenyan. here 之 refers to what was 'lost by me'

anyway

达者惟简惟易,迷者愈惑愈繁。

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

No, its definately not fictional, not at alll

 

Its  simply outside the realm of your experience , which is fine

I'm surprised to read that from ChiDragon. 

 

Are you allowing an element of doubt to remain to possibly account for the power of imagination in your practices?

[Thrice Daily]

Alchemy is not fictional, is it?

Following instructions of sorts without contention can be way hard. And harder still not to interupt when you witness qualities or processes of Dan tien in any given moment. 

 

You look with suprise, shock or awe and it's probably changed the sight of the Dan tien.. maybe the experience vanished in the next moment, maybe not.

 

But how hard is it to completely step out of the way of ego?, for any period of time. So hard not to grasp at experiences, and truly go with The flow (if that is even really happening?)

 

The Dan Tien to me is like powerful horses and carraige, with rider companions, bodyguards. And a whole collection of secret contents inside the carraige, like special guests I welcome them. The Dan Tiens are all these things and more. 

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm surprised to read that from ChiDragon. 

 

Im not. But he has no experience of neidan so thats ok

 

30 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Are you allowing an element of doubt to remain to possibly account for the power of imagination in your practices?

 

There is no imagination in my practice  My teachers would disown me should I ever engage in such things

[forestofclarity]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

But how hard is it to completely step out of the way of ego?, for any period of time. So hard not to grasp at experiences, and truly go with The flow (if that is even really happening?)

 

Harder than most of us realize, I would wager. Conditioning runs very deep, impacting how we see, feel, sense, think, etc. 

 

As far as imagination, I'm surprised at how things unfold for people across traditions, and in people who have no knowledge about subtle bodies, qi, kundalini, etc. It seems to me to follow a pattern. Which makes sense, because the mind is the mind and reality is reality. 

 

What I am suspicious of are reports that are not universal. The more specific something is, the more likely in my view that it is individual and not based on a universal process. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

What I am suspicious of are reports that are universal. The more specific something is, the more likely in my view that it is individual and not based on a universal process. 

Some things are just true, no matter what people personally believe. A lot of the physical side effects that happen with Daoist cultivation also happen in non Daoist traditions. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

There is no imagination in my practice  My teachers would disown me should I ever engage in such things

Mine too.

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

There is no imagination in my practice  My teachers would disown me should I ever engage in such things

Now I'm intrigued. Are you 100% certain imagination never gets involved. Sometimes the horse runs away with the cart no? 

 

I'm intrigued, i'd like to hear about your mental processes in practice with Dan Tien?

 

It would be interesting to read , perhaps too subjective to gather from, perhaps not though. Generally speaking there is always something to learn. 

 

Do you do much rooting grounding practices to keep yourself stable in these experiences?

 

I ask this as for me it's not always clear cut with sensation of energy inside the body. Quite often there is more to contend with. 

 

Teachers help to stabilise experiences for sure, it is not always clear cut though. I've been lucky to have been practicing a lot of daily qigong when I was in the presence of my martial arts teachers so was receptive. Their Chi was strong and I could feel a sense of the nature of it. I have had a great respect for my teachers in the past just as I have today. 

 

Do you have specific Neidan teacher? I do not.

 

It's on point your comment about teachers , that I should write about it today. Yesterday I had some experiences relating to lineage connections, the quality of which took me by suprise. 

 

There is much power in respect for your teacher. And standing up for them when the time is right.

Edited September 17 by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Harder than most of us realize, I would wager. Conditioning runs very deep, impacting how we see, feel, sense, think, etc. 

 

As far as imagination, I'm surprised at how things unfold for people across traditions, and in people who have no knowledge about subtle bodies, qi, kundalini, etc. It seems to me to follow a pattern. Which makes sense, because the mind is the mind and reality is reality. 

 

What I am suspicious of are reports that are universal. The more specific something is, the more likely in my view that it is individual and not based on a universal process. 

 

What would be an example of a specific process for you?

 

What would be an example of a universal process?

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Are you 100% certain imagination never gets involved.

 

Very sure.

 

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Sometimes the horse runs away with the cart no? 

 

Definately not
 

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm intrigued, i'd like to hear about your mental processes in practice with Dan Tien?  It would be interesting to read , perhaps too subjective to gather from, perhaps not though. Generally speaking there is always something to learn.  Do you do much rooting grounding practices to keep yourself stable in these experiences?

 

Mental processes? Be more specific as to what you are asking please

 

What are you seeking here, instruction?

 

Calm abilding and Non governance are  some key qualties here if thats what you are asking

 

The mind is pulled into the LDT via the strength of the field itself. Theres no real mental "doing" involved  for me really

 

Its where my focal point of awareness just goes

 

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I ask this as for me it's not always clear cut with sensation of energy inside the body. Quite often there is more to contend with. 

 

Energetic sensations are troublesome. By the time you touch the non physical aspects of qi, the sensation would be confusing  

 

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you have specific Neidan teacher? I do not.

 

I have learned neigong/neidan from two, and another less public buddhist practice from another

 

Sorry but your style of posting is a little confusing for me. Could you perhaps just elaborate on what you want to discuss and I can try to focus on that

[forestofclarity]

23 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

What would be an example of a specific process for you?

 

A flaming swastika rotating counterclockwise in your abdomen. 

 

These are usually produced by a series of intentional techniques and/or visualizations, for example. 

 

23 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

What would be an example of a universal process?

 

An intense blast of energy spontaneously rising up your spine and shooting out of the top of your head followed by a non-dual experience. 

 

[Thrice Daily]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Mental processes? Be more specific as to what you are asking please

 

What would be typical mental processes occuring, would you experience colors, sounds, people, places, would your practice involve guidance, visions, etc. I'm interested?

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

What are you seeking here, instruction?

 

I'm interested to know others experiences really. I'm finding it helpful to see others writings as sometimes they include checklists that I'm familiar with, eg, a golden sphere in lower Dan tien. 

 

Calm abilding and Non governance are  some key qualties here if thats what you are asking

That makes sense, naturalness and none action. Perhaps also virtue too, does that help you in practice?

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The mind is pulled into the LDT via the strength of the field itself. Theres no real mental "doing" involved  for me really

That I relate to.

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Its where my focal point of awareness just goes

And this, do you feel like your attention has portions of its awareness in other spaces too?

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Energetic sensations are troublesome. By the time you touch the non physical aspects of qi, the sensation would be confusing  

None physical aspects of chi, how are they experienced, outside of time and space? Can you describe?

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I have learned neigong/neidan from two, and another less public buddhist practice from another.

Is there a quote from them that they wouldn't mind you sharing?

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Sorry but your style of posting is a little confusing for me. Could you perhaps just elaborate on what you want to discuss and I can try to focus on that

No problem, I am just tiptoeing in And do not really want to share too much or ask too much. Still though I'm very interested in others experiences and generally seek to learn more to develop my perspective more than my practice, although for me the two go hand in hand..

[Thrice Daily]

55 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

A flaming swastika rotating counterclockwise in your abdomen. 

 

These are usually produced by a series of intentional techniques and/or visualizations, for example. 

 

 

An intense blast of energy spontaneously rising up your spine and shooting out of the top of your head followed by a non-dual experience. 

 

Great, that makes sense thankyou. I started with Hatha yoga by Sivananda before finding Taoism. The energy would shoot up and our the head as you say. 

 

I didn't know what to do with it and had no idea of conception channel to bring it down... 

 

The Dan tiens are still a mystery to me although I have experiences. It's incredible to me how consciousness operates... 

 

What are your experiences with middle Dan tien and upper Dan tien. 

 

Do you have any insights that you would share?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

What are your experiences with middle Dan tien and upper Dan tien. 

FYI

By definition: the upper dantian is the head and middle dantian is the chest. There is not much one can do with martial arts. However, lower dantian are most adaptable for martial applications. All material arts practitioners perform reverse abdominal breathing. That is what they meant by "sink chi into the LDT."

Abdominal breathing is most vulnerable in martial arts. It is because if the LDT was opened to the opponent，one strike to the LDT will release all the chi. Thus that would make one most vulnerable to be the weakest at that point in time.

Edited September 17 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

16 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI

By definition: the upper dantian is the head and middle dantian is the chest. There is not much one can do with martial arts. However, lower dantian are most adaptable for martial applications. All material arts practitioners perform reverse abdominal breathing. That is what they meant by "sink chi into the LDT."

Thankyou, but for me martial arts start with intent, and much of that is cultivated with the heart. Can you dig it?

 

physically speaking though I totally get what you're saying and appreciate the comment. I should keep the reverse breathing in mind more than I currently do. 

 

ChiDragon do you focus at all on middle and upper, What do they mean to you? If anything? in

 

I'm still feeling out how the three treasures articulate in the centres. and day to day sensation is so different, it's hard to pin point what's happening... More intensity and strength is my best measure stick to good progress really.

 

what do you consider progress? 

[ChiDragon]

@Thrice Daily

I will respond to you soon. I am in my Taiji class for the next two hours.

Edited September 17 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

What would be typical mental processes occuring, would you experience colors, sounds,

 

Nimitta will arise, depending on the practice.

 

The always come about of their own volition. You are never told what they are, as thay would prime you

 

The more esoteric practices  involve the manipulation of certain nimitta.

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

people

 

Depends.

 

Marial arts involve people for example. This would need to be more specific im afraid

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

, places,

 

Yes, there are specific places one can practice to amplify the effects, for example, in a graveyard, forests, near water, on certain areas where there are dragon lines

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

would your practice involve  guidance, visions, etc. I'm interested?

 

Ive tapped precognition quite a few times, and seen/spoken/communicated with the deceased yes

 

But I dont take guidance from anybody other than my teachers though.

 

Rule #1 is never trust spirits. Its a long discussion as to why  

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

That makes sense, naturalness and none action. Perhaps also virtue too, does that help you in practice?

 

Virtue is supposed to arise as a result of practice. I tend to have had this experience yes  

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

And this, do you feel like your attention has portions of its awareness in other spaces too?

None physical aspects of chi, how are they experienced, outside of time and space? Can you describe?

 

Would rather not say too much about these two im afraid

 

 I try to be as open as I can, but i dont think it will benefit you (see below)

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Is there a quote from them that they wouldn't mind you sharing?

 

Sure no problem

 

Quote

Use Attention, not Intention

 

There you are  

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

No problem, I am just tiptoeing in And do not really want to share too much or ask too much. Still though I'm very interested in others experiences and generally seek to learn more to develop my perspective more than my practice, although for me the two go hand in hand..

Ive tried my best to answer. I think if I answer those last two I may prime you in a way that might cause you to use your own imagination however, so thats why i tend to not say much.

 

It would be best if you experienced those for yourself when the time arises  

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I didn't know what to do with it

 

I don't think you have to do anything with it. Intentionally trying to guide or direct the energy is generally conducted by the ego-habits or acquired mind and will probably just distort it or give false ideas about what should happen in my opinion. Others may disagree. There is a time for effort, and a time for effortlessness. 

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you have any insights that you would share?

 

I share when I think it is appropriate. Most of my practice is Buddhist based. 

 

[ChiDragon]

13 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm surprised to read that from ChiDragon. 

 

Are you allowing an element of doubt to remain to possibly account for the power of imagination in your practices?

Not at all in my imagination. It is only the traditional explanation is fictional to me. However, I consulted with a more reliable source such as modern science to satisfy my thoughts.

 

The master said that chi is flowing in the body. My understanding that is to replace chi with oxygen. It is because oxygen was carried by the red blood cells and delivering to all the cells throughout the body.

Edited September 18 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Not at all in my imagination. It is only the traditional explanation is fictional to me. However, I consulted with a more reliable source such as modern science to satisfy my thoughts.

 

The master said that chi is flowing in the body. My understanding that is to replace chi with oxygen. It is because oxygen was carried by the red blood cells and delivering to all the cells throughout the body.

 

Whatcha gonna do about the qi of inanimate objects such as the mountains, rivers, computers, or money?  The sun and the moon and Jupiter?