What is the dan in neidan and dan tian? 丹

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Whatcha gonna do about the qi of inanimate objects such as the mountains, rivers, computers, or money?  The sun and the moon and Jupiter?   

Not to mention external qi emission

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Thrice Daily said:

Thankyou, but for me martial arts start with intent, and much of that is cultivated with the heart. Can you dig it?

physically speaking though I totally get what you're saying and appreciate the comment. I should keep the reverse breathing in mind more than I currently do. 

You welcome and thank you! I am not sure what it means by intent and cultivated with the heart. Perhaps, I need to have more clarification from you in to near future.

I am glad that you have considered to pay more attention to the significance of reverse breathing.
 

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

ChiDragon do you focus at all on middle and upper, What do they mean to you? If anything? in

Yes, both mean a lot to me.

First of all let's relate the TCM terminology with the physiological terms.
The upper dantian(UDT) is the mind that control all the body activities. The middle dantian(MDT) is the chest where the lung is located. The lower datian(LDT) is the abdomen. The MDT is where it begins to sustain life. It provides oxygen or chi as fuel to generate energy to keep the body function. As we breathe oxygen(chi) into the lung, the lung is the first organ that uses oxygen to produce the ATP energy to carry out its function. Then, the blood brings in oxygen into the heart from the lung. The cells in the heart will use oxygen to produce the energy for contraction. The contraction of the heart will squeeze the oxygenated blood out to arteries throughout the body. The rest of the body cells will fight for the oxygen.

The cells of the heart and brain do not reproduce if they die. Hence, the constant supply of oxygen is required for these two organs in order to keep their cells alive. 

Under the condition of "sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" is very important to a martial artist and a Taoist.  To a martial artist, 氣沉丹田,  is at the condition which the body can generate the maximum internal power. To a Taoist, it is the ultimate alchemy condition for Neidan.

However, the ancient people did not understand the physiologically functions of the body. So, they assumed that at "sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" is the ultimate condition to accomplish the goal of whatever the practice was. Therefore, they only focus on the LDT rather than the other two.

 

10 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

..... More intensity and strength is my best measure stick to good progress really.

 

what do you consider progress? 

Progress to me is same as what you have stated. I want keep my ability to breathe deep to sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" at will and to increase my internal strength by increasing the mitochondria density in my body. As I understand, it could be done by slow body movements and slow deep breathing. I believe that I have accomplished by the diligent practice of Taiji.

Thank you very much for your response and interested in the thread!

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Whatcha gonna do about the qi of inanimate objects such as the mountains, rivers, computers, or money?  The sun and the moon and Jupiter?   

Sorry, Taomeow. I don't really know what are you asking.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Sorry, Taomeow. I don't really know what are you asking.

She means there is qi in things that don’t breathe, so how can it just be oxygen?

[Thrice Daily]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

You welcome and thank you! I am not sure what it means by intent and cultivated with the heart. Perhaps, I need to have more clarification from you in to near future.

 

I've got a funny take on martial arts. For me it's more about how we operate in the empty space around people than in actual contact. This for me is genuine martialart. If I fight I already failed and betrayed my intention not to fight. Luckily I learned some wing chun first so it fits well with this ethic, I don't like to fight, sure my body can make some shapes and I can knock sticks away but I would rather tickle my opponent.

I am glad that you have considered to pay more attention to the significance of reverse breathing.

 

Thanks, it's something I approach with caution, I naturally don't have the best none structure, had car accidents in my teens, which damaged a foot and opposite knee so I grew up with not much space between the joints and lots of pain. Reverse breathing is helping though and as I go deeper into the guts it is helping me open the hips scrum and lower back, a little is better than nothing for me and I'm very grateful of any progress 
 

Yes, both mean a lot to me.

First of all let's relate the TCM terminology with the physiological terms.
The upper dantian(UDT) is the mind that control all the body activities.

Do you ever use this for visualization / working with universal energies?

 

The middle dantian(MDT) is the chest where the lung is located. The lower datian(LDT) is the abdomen. The MDT is where it begins to sustain life. It provides oxygen or chi as fuel to generate energy to keep the body function. As we breathe oxygen(chi) into the lung, the lung is the first organ that uses oxygen to produce the ATP energy to carry out its function. Then, the blood brings in oxygen into the heart from the lung. The cells in the heart will use oxygen to produce the energy for contraction. The contraction of the heart will squeeze the oxygenated blood out to arteries throughout the body. The rest of the body cells will fight for the oxygen.

 

Very nice to focus on the physical, can't go wrong with a And p, Do you do any meditation for generating living kindness / metta?

Also do you eat much seafood, shellfish is apparently especially

It good for mitochondrial health. If you got a good supply of oysters nearby I highly reccomend..

The cells of the heart and brain do not reproduce if they die. Hence, the constant supply of oxygen is required for these two organs in order to keep their cells alive. 

You sound laser focused do you have any tips on staying mindful about breathing throughout the day while not doing formal training?

Under the condition of "sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" is very important to a martial artist and a Taoist.  To a martial artist, 氣沉丹田,  is at the condition which the body can generate the maximum internal power. To a Taoist, it is the ultimate alchemy condition for Neidan.

 

Nicely put thanks.

However, the ancient people did not understand the physiologically functions of the body. So, they assumed that at "sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" is the ultimate condition to accomplish the goal of whatever the practice was. Therefore, they only focus on the LDT rather than the other two.

👍

Progress to me is same as what you have stated. I want keep my ability to breathe deep to sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田)" at will and to increase my internal strength by increasing the mitochondria density in my body. As I understand, it could be done by slow body movements and slow deep breathing. I believe that I have accomplished by the diligent practice of Taiji.

 

Nice thanks for the reminder, anyone reading this should gain benefits for practice of they focus on it. More blessings to you.

Thank you very much for your response and interested in the thread!

Likewise it's a pleasure reading your responses, can I ask about your taiji, What are you working on at the moment?

[Neirong]

30 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

She means there is qi in things that don’t breathe, so how can it just be oxygen?

 

5 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Whatcha gonna do about the qi of inanimate objects such as the mountains, rivers, computers, or money?  The sun and the moon and Jupiter?   

 

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Sorry, Taomeow. I don't really know what are you asking.

As someone who can see Qi physically, I can confirm that it is not just "living" objects that have Qi. Inanimate objects, such as metal, stone, and wood, glow as well. There is a potentiated energy in about every object you can find; the structure of that energy/information can vary.

 

You could argue that the quality of the Qi is different, and it would not be wrong; living objects "Qi" would be more dynamic, and inanimate are often more stable. But saying that Qi is just lifeforce and living things is a naive view. On the other side of Life Qi, Death Qi also exists. However, what is more interesting is that inanimate objects also have memories and record events happening around them.

 

The real reason for this is the nature of consciousness; as you develop, it becomes evident that consciousness is a mental field that has qualities of omnipresence and pervading through everything. In the beginning, your consciousness is located inside your body, and you have barely any awareness outside. But as it grows. The consciousness of a highly developed creature would envelop a city, a country, or even a whole planet, permeating through every object on it.

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The upper dantian(UDT) is the mind that control all the body activities.

 

No, your mind is located elswhere

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The middle dantian(MDT) is the chest where the lung is located.

 

No the middle dan tien is located with the heart. This is actually where the mind is

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

However, the ancient people did not understand the physiologically functions of the body. 

 

I think you'll find they understood perfectly well

 

Its my opinion  (and several others on this board seem to share this view) that you seem to be the one struggling with all of this

[Thrice Daily]

It’s hard to specialise though Shadow_Self when you’re a Jack of all trades.

 

(I enjoy reading your comments by the way, Thankyou for sharing for us all)

 

I get where ChiDragon is coming from though, a bit at least.

 

Personally I prefer to be an all rounder . I don’t get too deep in any area and maybe not that proficient either,

but prefer the balance.

 

Health/Structural, Martial, Sexual, Religeous, 

 

Maybe ChiDragon just wants Martial. 
 

For me you can listen with mind to Head, Heart or Gut.

 

In my experience, in the real world, gut is always better. 
 

Heart and Head causes more trouble. 
 

ChiDragon, what’s your take on the three treasures? in this case I mean

 

chi jing and shen

 

 

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

If I fight I already failed and betrayed my intention not to fight. Luckily I learned some wing chun first so it fits well with this ethic, I don't like to fight

If fighting was the first thing comes to the mind is to learn martial arts, then, it was the wrong step to begin with. An intent to learn the art is for health and good character other than fighting. It was considered to be the virtue of martial arts(武德).  However, whether you like it or not, the fighting skill comes with the package. You have the virtue of martial arts, my friend.
 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you ever use this for visualization / working with universal energies?

I believe visualization is a western idea which I am not familiar with. I don't know what is the true meaning of universal energies or how to work with it.
 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Do you do any meditation for generating living kindness / metta?

I do meditation in a zazen manner by sitting in my garden with the ultimate breathing method(UBM).

 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

You sound laser focused do you have any tips on staying mindful about breathing throughout the day while not doing formal training?

Ever since I have accomplished the ability to sink chi to my dantian, it had become my normal daily breathing habit with no hesitation. My tip is not to kick the breathing habit. The ample of oxygen supply, the universal source of energy, with keep me alert and focus at all times.

Edited September 18 by ChiDragon

[Nintendao]

As has already been stated in this thread, different practices have evolved to use the same words for different things, as well there are different levels of perspective. Here is yet another one. 

 

Lower dantien encompasses the entire physical body. Dan refined here involve enhanced flow of metabolites and hormones, to tissues who have increased efficiency and durability. Anything that can be objectively measured, even electricity.

 

Middle field is what's usually referred to as the aura. Technology has just scratched the surface of mapping a toroidal vortex via superconducting quantum interference detection, but lacks the resolution to sense intricacies of multiphasic encoding wherein our thoughts and feelings resonate. Medicine of this cauldron "removes dust from the mirror of the heart," smoothing out the little packets of turbulence propagating throughout the external orbit.

 

Upper stage, you'll have to ask a celestial about that.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Health/Structural, Martial, Sexual, Religeous, 

 

Maybe ChiDragon just wants Martial. 

With the practice of any kind, all the of above come with the package.
I am not just want all martial. I am in the 性命雙修, dual cultivation of mind and body.
 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

ChiDragon, what’s your take on the three treasures? in this case I mean

 

chi jing and shen

精氣神( chi jing and shen) are the esoteric terms used by the ancient Chinese Taoists specialized in alchemy. If people talking about neidan(內丹) without mentioning these three terms, then, they knew nothing about neidan.

These three treasures are the major ingredients are used in the alchemy. The final product become a neidan.

I had posted the explanation of the three treasures. I need to look for it again. I wish Cobie is here to help me. She is good at that.
 

Edited September 18 by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

As has already been stated in this thread, different practices have evolved to use the same words for different things, as well there are different levels of perspective. Here is yet another one. 

 

Lower dantien encompasses the entire physical body. Dan refined here involve enhanced flow of metabolites and hormones, to tissues who have increased efficiency and durability. Anything that can be objectively measured, even electricity.

 

Middle field is what's usually referred to as the aura. Technology has just scratched the surface of mapping a toroidal vortex via superconducting quantum interference detection, but lacks the resolution to sense intricacies of multiphasic encoding wherein our thoughts and feelings resonate. Medicine of this cauldron "removes dust from the mirror of the heart," smoothing out the little packets of turbulence propagating throughout the external orbit.

 

Upper stage, you'll have to ask a celestial about that.

“Upper stage, you'll have to ask a celestial about that.”

 

I love it, I’m glad I’m not the only one that exercises caution around this point.

 

It’s very interesting what you are saying about the tech. Amazing to think we may decode it in this way. 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

精氣神( chi jing and shen) are the esoteric terms used by the ancient Chinese Taoists specialized in alchemy. If people talking about neidan(內丹) without mentioning these three terms, then, they knew nothing about neidan.

@Thrice Daily
These three treasures are the major ingredients are used in internal alchemy. The final product become a neidan.
The ancient Chinese Taoist alchemy, originally, started externally by baking the elements in a cauldron. However, it was done ridiculously included some poisonous ingredients such as mercury and lead. Thus the elixir instead of prolong life but shorten life. Therefore, the Taoist came up with another idea with the thought of internal alchemy. They had thought of using three intangible ingredients inside the body. They are 精氣神( chi jing and shen).

In internal alchemy, it was assumed that the body is the caldron as in external alchemy. The three major ingredients inside the body are as follows:
精(Jing) is a unit substance that makes up the structure of the human body.
氣(chi) is the vital life source that keep the human body alive
神(shen) is the soul of the body like the vital sign of the body.

The external uses fire to bake the ingredients in a caldron. In internal alchemy, Taoist perform meditation by breathing the chi(oxygen) into the dantian to bake the three major ingredients. The idea was to have 練精化氣,

Here is the Taoist terminology for 練精化氣, refine jing to chi:
炼精化气，道教术语。其为内丹术筑基气功的第一阶段，即炼精化气、炼气化神，炼神还虚，炼虚合道。内丹术以精、气、神为基础，
元精须与元气合炼，化为轻清无质的精炁相合之物，始能随河车运转，炼成丹胎 
English translation:
Refining the jing to transform in to chi, is the Taoist terminology. It is first stage of qigong in the fundamental internal alchemy process. Then, the whole process is refining the jing to transform in to chi, refining the chi to transform in to shen, refining shen in to the void. Refine the void integrated with Tao. In internal alchemy, using jing, chi, shen as the basic fundamental, the prenatal jing and the prenatal chi should be refined together, transform them to a light and pure no-form compound substance. Refine it to a "dan body" which means after  the body was returned back to the prenatal form.

BTW Qigong means the practice of breathing here. Void is return back to the innocent stage of oneself.

The esoteric explanation was hard to interpret and comprehend. That's why I say it sounds fictional to me.

Edited September 18 by ChiDragon

[Sahaja]

Probably the term qi is one of those terms that should remain untranslated, as its basis unique to its cultural source. The early Chinese philosophers viewed qi as the fundamental force/building block of the universe that from a cosmological perspective preceding the division into  yin and Yang, heaven/earth/humans and the 10000 things. It was viewed as being every where and in all things in some way. So it shouldn’t be surprising at all the designations for qi reflecting its different attributes and all the confusion that can be created because of this. Adding to this confusion are differences in language and world view based on time and place.

 

In my understanding, from a self cultivation perspective it will manifest differently depending what layer you are working at. What manifests at the physical layer is different than at the energetic layer which in turn is different than the deeper layers (mental, causal, etc.) this in turn affects our experience of it. At the level of the physical we might experience it as movement of the breath while at the energetic (e.g. qi gong or internal martial arts) we might experience it as electrical or magnetic or pneumatic pressure deep inside and so on with each layer being experienced in its in its own way.  In fact the progression through these layers back to the source in self cultivation is predicated on moving away from both  the experience and definition of it at the preceding level, though the manifestation at the preceding level can be used as a tool to bridge to the next layer. 
 

since science generally operates at the physical layer it’s difficult to rely on them for a definitive view of qi as it transcends the physical.  However, for those uncomfortable not having a scientific basis for their views there is the concept and term dark energy. It is accepted by science as the force driving the expansion of the universe at a rate faster than is expected based on known measurable factors and is calculated to make up 68% of the universe’s total mass. Though scientists accept its existence they have been  unable to measure it or even directly observe it and haven’t been able to define  what it actually is. At best they say it seems like a kind of pressure without a known source. Sounds a like qi to me. 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

23 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Since science generally operates at the physical layer it’s difficult to rely on them for a definitive view of qi as it transcends the physical. 

 

I think you can replace difficult with impossible to be honest

[Antares]

[Thrice Daily]

6 minutes ago, Antares said:

Looks interesting care to divulge more or are you gonna keep it cryptic for us uni lingual lot

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Looks interesting care to divulge more or are you gonna keep it cryptic for us uni lingual lot

 

If you have a teacher he should explain to you the meaning of this text. If you have no teacher and method it won't help you at all.

 

[Nintendao]

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Looks interesting care to divulge more or are you gonna keep it cryptic for us uni lingual lot

 

It's a lovely rendition of Dragons Gate style alchemy. You know, disappearing into the mysterious passage to combine lead and mercury into elixirs, conceive a golden fetus, and ascend to heaven. From 性命要旨 Xìng Mìng Yào Zhǐ by 汪东亭 Wāng Dōngtíng.

[Thrice Daily]

27 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

It's a lovely rendition of Dragons Gate style alchemy. You know, disappearing into the mysterious passage to combine lead and mercury into elixirs, conceive a golden fetus, and ascend to heaven. From 性命要旨 Xìng Mìng Yào Zhǐ by 汪东亭 Wāng Dōngtíng.

I'm quite new to Neidan in the textual sense, seem to have a fairly good grounding to look at it though. There is a lot of sense in it thus far. 

 

I would stand and give reverence in many small shrines in Taiwan. One of the greatest sights there featured 2 stone dragons meeting in the middle with a golden ball. 

 

What does combining lead and mercury mean? Treat me like I just heard of Taoism and just stepped in...

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

 

If you have a teacher he should explain to you the meaning of this text. If you have no teacher and method it won't help you at all.

 

So far from what I've read the method is self becoming if you are ready for it. 

Not to interrupt the process, only watch, does this ring true?

 

And concentrating on Dantien is enough alone. If the next step is supposed to be revealed it will be and up we go, the next stage will flower.

Does that sound befitting?

 

With teachers do you think it's important for them to be close by?

As long as you are connected they will be unconsciously acting by proxy no?

 

[Antares]

55 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

And concentrating on Dantien is enough alone. If the next step is supposed to be revealed it will be and up we go, the next stage will flower.

Does that sound befitting?

 

I hope you dont you Mantac Chia stuff. Concentration on ldt... it depends what u mean by that. Slight attention may be true but combining with other methods. Detalis matter. I only can add you cant get it from the books. But there might be some book on northern style neidan where they use seated meditations. Some of them may give you some result but in general I cant recommend it. 

This would be to YIN approach

 

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

It's a lovely rendition of Dragons Gate style alchemy.

 

Not only DG.

[Thrice Daily]

12 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

I hope you dont you Mantac Chia stuff. Concentration on ldt... it depends what u mean by that. Slight attention may be true but combining with other methods. Detalis matter. I only can add you cant get it from the books. But there might be some book on northern style neidan where they use seated meditations. Some of them may give you some result but in general I cant recommend it. 

This would be to YIN approach

 

 

Not only DG.

I'm not sure why Mantak Chia practices get such a bad wrap. That said though I only stick with very basic stuff. 

 

Inner Smile - very safe simple and wouldn't understand how Mantak could somehow hold monopoly on it. 

 

6 healing sounds - Again I learned through Mantak but really the sounds form largely on their own , it was a guide to learn, again a process surely you can't say don't use due to Mantak detailing it. 

 

MCO - same as above really 

 

Iron Shirt - I can see how people could run into problems here by skipping steps and ignoring warnings. I can see some material has been offered to help students mitigate potential problems. 

Again the 4 main postures can we really say it's Mantak? 

 

I haven't really gone past these basics in his literature tbh so if your talking about fusion of 5 elements and kan li etc I didn't go there fully, just had a look and all seemed pretty common sensical. From what is learned from personal introspection in the six sounds (reading basic tcm and contemplating it in regards to organs and cycles) it was just more info in that direction. Maybe I'm coming from too basic a point of view in this regard.

 

So yeah, if you don't mind can you elaborate on Mantak Chia being crappy? I'm not offended I'm just interested. 

 

I understand the problem with beginners doing too much too fast.

I don't think his Universal Tao approach to workshops etc is the best in that regard either. 

 

Re super basic practices as I listed above I can't see a problem. Unless I create it by not following wu wei

 

Please colour my understanding more if you can,  would you be kind enough to share the time to do so?. Thankyou.

 

[Antares]

27 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm not sure why Mantak Chia practices get such a bad wrap. That said though I only stick with very basic stuff. 

 

Inner Smile - very safe simple and wouldn't understand how Mantak could somehow hold monopoly on it. 

 

6 healing sounds - Again I learned through Mantak but really the sounds form largely on their own , it was a guide to learn, again a process surely you can't say don't use due to Mantak detailing it. 

 

MCO - same as above really 

This is qigong and not of a high quality. It has nothing to do with texts. Nearly garbage

It is not recommended to work on MCO using ur attention on it. You will disperse ur energy

Also you won't find such practices described in taoist texts

Ask Taoist Text if you dont trust me

He is the guru of TT

Edited September 20 by Antares

[Thrice Daily]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

This is qigong and not of a high quality. It has nothing to do with texts. Nearly garbage

I'm not sure I follow you, it really depends on the developing loving kindness at mdt is garbage?

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

It is not recommended to work on MCO using ur attention on it. You will disperse ur energy

How to work on it without attention? We notice it right, sensations at different points?

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

Also you won't find such practices described in taoist texts

6 sounds has cropped up in a few texts no? The sounds kind of make themselves, did you ever try?

 

It's just stretching the muscle tendons really that feed into each organ and mostly terminate at fingers and toes. 

 

I can't see any other way to really do this. I mean there is tendon changing practice too. Again I don't understand how this can be perceived as garbage. The body stretches really well in these positions and that is just one component of 6 sounds. You also have some pretty sound nlp in there, if you want to call it something and kind of prove its worth in a modern way...

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

Ask Taoist Text if you dont trust me

He is the guru of TT

Thank you maybe one day we get the time to talk. He seems like a formidable character on here from what I gather. Humbly lucky to have him posting by the looks of it.

 

I don't know Antares I think it's like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

A bit like saying I won't do child pose arms out stretched because the Muslims do it in prayer. Seems a bit paranoid to be honest. 

 

The practices themselves are neutral and sound from what I can see. Just breath and shapes.

 

The rest is up to you to put in...