What is the dan in neidan and dan tian? 丹

[forestofclarity]

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

 

So what do you all mean? It seems that definitions vary widely and that people sort of talk past each other on this issue. It seems fairly important. 

 

A few sample definitions are provided at Golden Elixir: 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/jindan.html

 

Note: I didn't ask "which one path is right, and how is every other path wrong" nor "who is right and who is an ignoramus in these arts." I'm curious as to what the different paths say. 

[Ascetic]

I like the term aperture a lot. I know I'm not a Daoist, but somehow I became very attached to any open space being inside my mind and not having any other openings in places. Some place in the stomach seems a bit abominable, though personal taste. Maybe I'm missing some spiritual connection, chakras and so on.

Aperture... might be the exact English translation of Dan Tien, maybe not. I always felt more comfortable using the word Aperture for that space, but then again I'm used to the wide usability. I think Dan Tien might be something very specific with Daoism.

I'm not helping by asking more questions: 

Does Dan Tien have to be lower body? I get the picture of being referred to like a casket at the base of the stomach.
 

Edited September 16 by Emaciated Ascetic

[Shadow_self]

54 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

 

So what do you all mean? It seems that definitions vary widely and that people sort of talk past each other on this issue. It seems fairly important. 

 

A few sample definitions are provided at Golden Elixir: 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/jindan.html

 

Note: I didn't ask "which one path is right, and how is every other path wrong" nor "who is right and who is an ignoramus in these arts." I'm curious as to what the different paths say. 

 

A good question, but a complicated one...

 

An Example of the Longmen Pai tradition

 

 

 

In one of the traditions I practice, it goes by this name

 

 Chunyang 純陽 (Pure Yang) : Spoken about below in Awakening to Reality

 

 

 

Edited September 16 by Shadow_self

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Emaciated Ascetic said:

Does Dan Tien have to be lower body?

When Dantian was not spicified, it was assumed that was referred to the lower dantian.

 

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

Well actually ppl do not talk about it at all for a good reason, they dont have it: in western neidan dan is replaced by 'opening the mco'. Yet Dan is a new energy in the body something never experienced before. The practicers who never obtained the dan think that it is the usual mind-induced qi with its feelings of energetic movement, expansion, vibration, heat, etc, i.e the usual qigong qi,  - but is not. And those who have obtained it will not describe it publicly, one reason why not because per se it is a useless piece of info, like explaining what does the torque feels on a ferrari to a man without one.

Thats why the misconceptions abound. For example the screen shot above claims ZBD says 'the dan elixir is like the moon' 1. He does not. 2 per se the elixir is nothing like the moon;) , instead ZBD's moon  refers to the state of mind produced by the dan. 月者喻元性

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Well actually ppl do not talk about it at all for a good reason,

 

They do speak about it

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

in western neidan dan is replaced by 'opening the mco'.

 

I have never heard anyone describe it as this

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thats why the misconceptions abound. For example the screen shot above claims ZBD says 'the dan elixir is like the moon' 1. He does not. 2 per se the elixir is nothing like the moon;) , instead ZBD's moon  refers to the state of mind produced by the dan. 月者喻元性

 

Actually you misunderstood. Allow me to correct you

 

1. What he is saying is the elixir is the  in the body (Yin), and that this body is fully exposed to the rays of the sun (Yang), which is what burns away the impurities of the conditioned state (because the elixir is Pure Yang)

 

2 The state of mind where the "moon" is seen is not produced by the dan. This state is the one your have to reach and absorb in order to gather one of the ingredients for the dan. (Original Silver)

 

You have the series of events mixed up

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yet Dan is a new energy in the body 

 

In the body. Well look at that . Looks like we finally agree on something

 

Kind of makes ZBDs point

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

They do speak about it

 

 

I have never heard anyone describe it as this

 

 

Actually you misunderstood. Allow me to correct you

 

1. What he is saying is the elixir is the  in the body (Yin), and that this body is fully exposed to the rays of the sun (Yang), which is what burns away the impurities of the conditioned state (because the elixir is Pure Yang)

 

2 The state of mind where the "moon" is seen is not produced by the dan. This state is the one your have to reach and absorb in order to gather one of the ingredients for the dan. (Original Silver)

 

You have the series of events mixed up

 

 

In the body. Well look at that . Looks like we finally agree on something

 

Kind of makes ZBDs point

 

My friend, we have a brand new toy to save us time in this situation 

[silent thunder]

Depends on context, but i often find the word field to be a good approximation in english for dan.

As in field of influence; a field of effect/affect. 

 

[MIchael80]

12 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

 

So what do you all mean? It seems that definitions vary widely and that people sort of talk past each other on this issue. It seems fairly important. 

 

A few sample definitions are provided at Golden Elixir: 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/jindan.html

 

Note: I didn't ask "which one path is right, and how is every other path wrong" nor "who is right and who is an ignoramus in these arts." I'm curious as to what the different paths say. 

Hi! 

Shadow selfs different dans is a good list  as far as i am aware. Though most are minor dans or stages of variations of an unfolding process.

 

But different traditions have different definitions. 

 

Usually the highest is the golden elixir...this comes from merging of xing and ming...wich means merging of yuanshen with yuanqi.(but even that can vary).

 

In the traditions i know yuanshen is soul. So the soul merges with ming (=yuanqi =life battery). 

Soul/yuanshen is preheaven yin.

Ming/yuanqi is preheaven yang. 

Once they merge it becomes pure yang. 

 

This golden elixir matures into the yangshen and brings changes in awareness.  (But as i said,  different traditions follow different processes).

[forestofclarity]

It is interesting that the character dan also refers to the color red, which in Western alchemy is the earthward manifesting (i.e. rubedo) of pure heavenly energies. Purity is generally represented by gold. 

 

I wonder if there is a different meaning depending on whether one is cultivating health, longevity, spiritual power, or realization.  

[MIchael80]

30 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

It is interesting that the character dan also refers to the color red, which in Western alchemy is the earthward manifesting (i.e. rubedo) of pure heavenly energies. Purity is generally represented by gold. 

 

I wonder if there is a different meaning depending on whether one is cultivating health, longevity, spiritual power, or realization.  

Interesting! 

Didnt know that it could mean red.

 

In external alchemy the highest form of the external elixir is red.

The external elixir is more commonly know as philosophers stone.  And the highest form is the red stone.

[ChiDragon]

15 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

內丹：Neidan is a Taoist method practiced by meditation for good health to prolong life.

丹田: dantian is a location for the abdomen.

丹: dan is red color; a powder substance as in medicine.

丹的本义指朱砂，古时常用朱砂作绘画颜料，也可入药。

The original meaning of Dan is Cinnabon. In the ancient, people used it for painting. It was also used for medical purposes.

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

49 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

It is interesting that the character dan also refers to the color red, which in Western alchemy is the earthward manifesting (i.e. rubedo) of pure heavenly energies. Purity is generally represented by gold. 

 

I wonder if there is a different meaning depending on whether one is cultivating health, longevity, spiritual power, or realization.  

 

17 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Interesting! 

Didnt know that it could mean red.

 

In external alchemy the highest form of the external elixir is red.

The external elixir is more commonly know as philosophers stone.  And the highest form is the red stone.

 

The reason that it is referred to as red, is because it is percieved as red when it is formed in the body. 

 

In other words, you will see it .

 

This is where you get this idea of cinnabar from

 

So Mercury is derived from Cinnabar, and one part of the alchemical process is basically returning mercury  to cinnabar, where true mercury = true yin

 

Thats why its referred to as the cinnabar field where cinnabar = Dan/Chunyang

 

Technically speaking before the elixir is formed, one has a xiatian, not a dantian

 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

51 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

The external elixir is more commonly know as philosophers stone.

 

Same in Western alchemy, except in the West, external alchemy was focused on transform base metals into gold rather than immortality. The process was to revert matter into its primordial form, or hyle, and then form this in the philosophers stone. In internal alchemy, the primordial form is the union of male/female, or the hermaphrodite in some traditions. Of course, the West tends to be more externally focused, so this would make sense. IMO, these are not two different things from an inner point of view. IIRC, gold was considered to be an eternal metal, and the metal closest to God/heaven (it's been a while since I studied Western alchemy). So transmuting oneself from a base being to a divine one is essentially turning lead into gold. 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

From Liu Yiming's Commentary on Wang Mu's Awakening to Reality:

 

trans Pregadio:

Quote

 

Golden Elixir is another name for one's inchoate fundamental nature (xing). There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. Every human beings has this Golden Elixir complete in oneself: it is entirely achieved in everyone. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.

 

However, when it is not refined by fire, Yang culminates and necessarily becomes Yin, completion culminates and necessarily becomes lacking. One falls into the postcelestial state... Therefore the sages of antiquity established the Way of the Return [to the original state] through the Golden Elixir, so that everyone could go back to one's home and recognize one's ancestor, and revert to what one fundamentally and originally has in oneself.

 

 

trans Cleary:

Quote

 

Gold elixir is another name for the unfragmented original essence; there is no gold elixir besides the original essence. This elixir is inherent in everyone, not more in sages or less in ordinary people. It is the seed of immortals and enlightened ones, the root of saints and sages. It is only that as long as it has not been put through fire and refined, when the positive culminates it must turn to negative, when waxing culminates it must wane, and it falls into the temporal: intellectual knowledge develops and private desires get mixed in; temperament emerges and the natural good dims, innate knowledge and innate capacity both lose their innocence, and there is no more body of pristine purity. 

 

Therefore ancient sages set up the method of reversion and restoration of gold elixir, just to have people return home and recognize their ancestor, to revert to what is fundamentally inherent. Why is it called reversion and restoration? Reversion means the self comes back after it has gone; restoration means the self is regained after it has been lost. 

 

 

This should sound familiar to Zen/Chan students. 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

14 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

From Liu Yiming's Commentary on Wang Mu's Awakening to Reality:

This is where everybody is getting the information from? From one's opinion and one book. Even though, the original alchemy method works. However, the concept of alchemy is still fictional. It was just a way for the Taoists to convince themselves by showing how the method works. We had discussed some place along the line here in TDB, but the subject just keep coming back with a new comer.

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

However, the concept of alchemy is still fictional. 

 

No, its definately not fictional, not at alll

 

Its  simply outside the realm of your experience , which is fine

[forestofclarity]

53 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

From one's opinion and one book.

 

The Book of Balance and Harmony, trans Cleary:

 

Quote

 

The absolute is movement and stillness without beginning, yin and yang without beginning.

 

Buddhists call this complete awareness, Taoists call it the gold pill, Confucians call it the absolute. What is called the infinite absolute means the limit of the unlimited. 

 

 

See also the Taiyi Jinhua Zongzhi, aka in English, the Secret of the Golden Flower which is full of such references. 

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

Taiyi Jinhua Zongzhi,

《太乙金華宗旨》
《太乙金華宗旨》的主旨是煉精化氣，書中沿襲道教固有的「閉精」說，又加以發揮，主張「精」或「血」得先變為「氣」，循環體內，以製成肉體不死之丹。書名中的「太乙」，是指宇宙原初的清新完美狀態。

"The Goal of Taiyi Jinhua" The main thrust of "The Goal of Taiyi Jinhua" is to refine qi. The book follows the inherent Taoism of "closing the essence" and uses it to advocate that "essence" or "blood" must first become "qi" and circulate in the body to make the immortal pill of the flesh.The "Taiyi" in the title of the book refers to the original fresh and perfect state of the universe.

英文翻譯

[编辑]

英文版现有两个版本： 一个是早期由卡利·贝恩斯依据卫礼贤的德文版翻译的，另一个是1991年由托馬斯·克利里(Thomas Cleary)翻译出版。 这两个版本之间存在很大的差异。卫礼贤依据的是他中国老师劳乃宣 （Lau Nai Suan）所教授的内容，而湯姆斯·克里爾立是作为一个成就卓著的学者依据他自己的理解翻译的。
English translation
There are two versions of the English version: one was translated by Cali Bains in the early days based on Wei Lixian's German version, and the other was translated and published by Thomas Cleary in 1991. There are big differences between the two versions.Wei Lixian is based on the content taught by his Chinese teacher Lau Nai Suan, and Thomas Creel translated it as an accomplished scholar based on his own understanding.
 

〈光明初聚〉-- 第1階段的冥想圖示

卫礼贤的翻译来自于他在中国老师劳乃宣 （Lau Nai Suan）的传授，在那里学到了经典的中国哲学。基于他从他的老师那里学到的东西，卫礼贤更注重描述《金花的秘密》中的阴性思想。而克里爾立的翻译更注重学院派的阳性思想。荣格为卫礼贤的两本主要中国哲学书籍《金花的秘密》和《易经》作的序中都提到了中国哲学的这种性质。但是克里爾立几次批评卫礼贤的翻译版本的真实性。
Wei Lixian's translation came from the teaching of his Chinese teacher Lau Nai Suan, where he learned classic Chinese philosophy. Based on what he learned from his teacher, Wei Lixian paid more attention to describing the negative thoughts in "The Secret of the Golden Flower".Creel's translation pays more attention to the positive ideas of the academic school.Jung mentioned this nature of Chinese philosophy in the preface to Wei Lixian's two major Chinese philosophy books, "The Secret of the Golden Flower" and "The Book of Changes".However, Creel criticized the authenticity of Wei Lixian's translated version several times.

 

Edited September 16 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Well actually ppl do not talk about it at all for a good reason, they dont have it: in western neidan dan is replaced by 'opening the mco'. Yet Dan is a new energy in the body something never experienced before. The practicers who never obtained the dan think that it is the usual mind-induced qi with its feelings of energetic movement, expansion, vibration, heat, etc, i.e the usual qigong qi,  - but is not. And those who have obtained it will not describe it publicly, one reason why not because per se it is a useless piece of info, like explaining what does the torque feels on a ferrari to a man without one.

Thats why the misconceptions abound. For example the screen shot above claims ZBD says 'the dan elixir is like the moon' 1. He does not. 2 per se the elixir is nothing like the moon;) , instead ZBD's moon  refers to the state of mind produced by the dan. 月者喻元性

 

"State of mind like the moon" is actually derived from the idea that cinnabar -- the first meaning of "dan" -- produces mercury, which has an alchemical association with the moon.  Cinnabar is alchemically associated with the sun.  By the same token, the moon is associated with yin and the sun, with yang.  So indeed a neidan practitioner has yang in the lower abdomen and yin in the head (relatively to each other of course), which is a reversal of the state of affairs of a regular non-practitioner.  

 

Obviously these are metaphors, like all other verbal renditions of things neidan (and some, though not all, things waidan).  But it may be useful to grasp the general idea that the relative "field of action" in neidan, neigong, etc., is in the lower abdomen, and the relative "field of inaction," in the head.  For a practitioner, this metaphor can get more complicated, since the states of the body and the mind experienced are multifaceted, not yielding to descriptions easily and not yielding to definitions at all.  

[Nintendao]

To further confuse the issue, here's a few etymological notes i'd taken at zhongwen.com

 

 

Dan is also signified by new or rejuvenated growth.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Obviously these are metaphors, like all other verbal renditions of things neidan (and some, though not all, things waidan).  But it may be useful to grasp the general idea that the relative "field of action" in neidan, neigong, etc., is in the lower abdomen, and the relative "field of inaction," in the head.  For a practitioner, this metaphor can get more complicated, since the states of the body and the mind experienced are multifaceted, not yielding to descriptions easily and not yielding to definitions at all.  

 

I think you already know this {(though it may be lost on others not familiar with this) but in the Longmen Pai, and specifically the Three Immortals practice (Sanxian gong) , or the private oral transmission of Lu Dongbins Lingbao bafa practice/teaching,  the terms change meaning according to the level of practice.

 

When this kind of thing starts, it gets beyond complicated imo

Edited September 17 by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Why is it called reversion and restoration? Reversion means the self comes back after it has gone; restoration means the self is regained after it has been lost. 

Cleary got this line wrong while Pregadio omits the line altogether. Should be:

如何谓之返还？返者，我已去而复来之说，还者，我已失而又得之谓。

Reversion means I let go of something and now I bring it back; restoration means I lost something  and now I get it again. 

(a big diff in meaning obviously? may be not   )

[ChiDragon]

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

如何谓之返还？返者，我已去而复来之说，还者，我已失而又得之谓。

What does it mean by return and regain?

It was said that I  had gone but returned. It was said that I had lost it but regained it.

[Taomeow]

28 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think you already know this {(though it may be lost on others not familiar with this) but in the Longmen Pai, and specifically the Three Immortals practice (Sanxian gong) , or the private oral transmission of Lu Dongbins Lingbao bafa practice/teaching,  the terms change meaning according to the level of practice.

 

When this kind of thing starts, it gets beyond complicated imo

 

All I know is, some terms are avoided altogether by my Lingbao Bifa teacher when instructing beginners.  It's more like, "do this and this" -- in great detail -- "and after a while you may see something wonderful."  Once you see it, he may name it.  Lots of things are named, of course -- in a way similar to how things are named on a map, with an implied understanding that the map is not the territory.  Whatever says "Paris" on the map can't possibly accommodate the Eiffel Tower -- even on a very large scale map where they might even draw a picture of it.  Whatever says "Rome," the Colosseum won't fit in, and unless you visit it personally, you may never find out that cats now live in the cages where they once kept lions and tigers.  Not that cats are mandatory to see, but a teacher who saw them too will know you're getting somewhere you're supposed to if you mention them.   

 

And, yes, it's complicated...