The four kinds of Chi to be cultivated in Qigong

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

11 minutes ago, moment said:

Please stop cherry-picking.  Quote entire comment so that context is shown. I think you may be trying to soften things and of course Master Logray is right above you, but, always quote with full context, anyway---it is important.  I thank you now and in advance.

Is a joke 

[moment]

3 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Is a joke 

I thought likely and thank you for the good quote!

Edited October 24 by moment

[Cobie]

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

... Persian is the language of poetry, ... German  ... engineering        and Dutch  ......   ?

 

Cobie  ?  

 

 Yes, it's all about me. 

 

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

I did with a source, but the point was ignored or not realised 

I meant to start a new thread where you can share your thoughts on the subject if you feel strongly about the topic.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I meant to start a new thread where you can share your thoughts on the subject if you feel strongly about the topic.

 

Ah, na too much work. I will just go with the downvote option in the future! Save us all the trouble 

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

So what kinds of chi is cultivated in neidan?

If one follows an unique definition of Chi in each field for consistency, then, there is no need to ask the same question again and again.
 

13 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I think this situation comes from CD's intention to teach/preach, seeing the very persistent postings about a single and subsequently related topics.    Normally if we post very innovative opinion, like I suddenly occur that Chi comes from the breath of the 4 turtles supporting this earth.  At most I would receive cute comments from Nungali.  Then it ends.

 

While a very persistent poster would carry on no matter what.   It could force other members to continually rebuke or down vote everyday every post.  This creates disharmony.   

 

Is my observation correct?  CD

The same question was kept asking. The same answer will come up again and again.

Edited October 24 by ChiDragon

[silent thunder]

17 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The same question was kept asking. The same answer will come up again and again.

Then perhaps the mind answering is caught in a rigid pattern... and only perceives one pattern that it assumes is the answer...

 

This one has always preferred unanswerable questions, to unquestionable answers.

flowing presence as water in life

Spoiler

Rigidity is the way of death. ~Tao Te Jing

 

[Thrice Daily]

On 23/10/2024 at 10:57 PM, ChiDragon said:

炁 is a matter that was never touched by fire. It is the primordial matter or the basic unit that makes up all the things in the universe. Then the character 气 comes into the picture as air that we breathe. The major source of food is rice(米) for the Chinese to give them energy. The Taoist realized that from eating and breathing are the source of vitality. So the character for the vital energy is 氣. 

氣 is the combination of 气 and 米
What a coincidence ATP energy is oxygen and glucose!
 

The translation about the compound character 先天.  It was translated as pre-heaven and poorly translated to begin with. The correct translation is prenatal or before birth. The logic of pre-heaven or post-heaven doesn't flow. It is because heaven is heaven. The is no heaven before or after our times. Besides, 天  means sky not heaven(天堂). Chinese thought and treated the sky as their god is because the sky is high above. Thus the Chinese, initially, thought that everything was originated for the sky. In the same token, 後天 is postnatal or after birth rather than post-heaven.
 

Excellent, really enjoyed reading that, thankyou. I like how this post has evolved to include opinions, I'd like to share mine on the four kinds and hopefully ChiDragon can give a Chinese interpretation of it with some traditional Chinese if he has time and patience for it...

 

The four main ways I tend to approach the concept of Chi during moving practices are. 

1/. Earth Energy, focusing on an upward , efferent flow

2/. Earth Energy, focusing on a downward grounding flow

3/. Heaven Energy, Focusing on bringing down from the sky, cosmos, galaxies, stars.. Maybe "Universal Force" is better wording

4/. Post Natal Energy, this is where I am learning as there is so much variation that may occur,

 

I will feel different sensations in different parts of my body, Chi, Jing, Shen, mixtures. Sometimes more Yin and sometimes more Yang. I'm really still learning to classify these different forms of sensation that arise.

For now I just tend to bask in whatever arises, generally is is warm and expanding around the middle Dan Tien but it varies. 

 

My Current theory is that None Contention, Naturalness and Virtue  arise from a healthy and relaxed body, environment and lifestyle. and vice versa.(< for me this is absolute basis for good practice to develop or the senses will be leading and the mind to agitated and restless to settle in practice). The more of these Big Three are cultivated with good diet, lifestyle and wellness routine the more the Shen Develops and the stronger the Chi, also the more Jing preserved perhaps. It seems the body has to trust me that I will take care of it (and not put it to excesses), to open up to more powerful realities of Chi. That has just been my experience so far. There are more qualities of Chi but perhaps hard to put to words, so I share the four above, as being most practical and useful for my current attention... Any thoughts or advice from elders on the path or those with varied insights would be gratefully received. Blessings

[Thrice Daily]

On 23/10/2024 at 10:57 PM, ChiDragon said:

氣 is the combination of 气 and 米
What a coincidence ATP energy is oxygen and glucose!

Also I remember pondering this, I think I  must have read about it a while back, but let me just share the understanding I currently have. All in my opinion ChiDragon, but if you have more to add to this (and anyone reading that has pondered this) it would be cool to read it. 

Cooking Rice perfectly is very important no? For this to happen you need right amount of rice and right amount of water, also right intensity of fire and correct duration of cooking in the right pot, to make the rice just perfect. So there are these variables  

 

For me these variables also exist in Chi Cultivation in a similar fashion;

 

• it's no good having too heavy a Qigong practice for current ability (too much rice)
• its no good having too much emotion in practice time (too much water)
• its no good having too much intensity for the current time (too much fire)
• its no good expecting too much from the practice (too big a pot)
• and its no good practicing for too long for current capacity (too much time cooking)

 

Alternatively,

 

• its no good having practice that is too short and scarce (too little rice)
• it's no good being apathetic or too tired in practice (too little water)
• it's no good having poor focus / concentration and nonchalant attitude (too little fire) 
• it's no good being unprepared for effects of the practice in the rest of your regular life (too small a pot)
• and it's no good rushing and doing practice quickly and in little time (too little time cooking) 

 

In both these instances you will have a very bad experience with the RICE and same with QIGONG practices.

 

But get just enough, not too much, not too little and you will get perfect rice / qigong... You can also increase all the variables little by little and still cook perfect rice / qigong, just more of it... etc etc,,,

 

Cooking Rice for me is a very good Analogy when thinking about QIGONG, and energy cultivation in these internal and external arts. 

Edited October 29 by Thrice Daily

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

4/. Post Natal Energy, this is where I am learning as there is so much variation that may occur,

後天之氣 (Post Natal Chi) 
By the TCM definition. Post Natal Chi is the matter that sustain the prenatal matters(氣) in the body.. 

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

後天之氣 (Post Natal Chi) 
By the TCM definition. Post Natal Chi is the matter that sustain the prenatal matters(氣) in the body.. 

Interesting, by quick Google translate 

 

後天之 = The Day After Tomorrow 

天之 = Heaven 

後之 = Later 

天 = Sky

後 = Back

 

氣 = Rather Worryingly translates as ‘GAS’ !!! 
 

How does the rest of it line up for you, does it look correct?

 

This is quite a nice little article for English speakers who want to read a little about post natal chi;

 

https://www.acenterfornaturalhealing.com/livingafulfilledlifeblog/tag/postnatal+Qi

Edited October 30 by Thrice Daily

[Cobie]

deleted, as off topic.

Edited October 30 by Cobie

[Thrice Daily]

And different times energy in organs waxes and wanes making it better times to practice certain things or worse times correct?

 

Mental concentration work blocks are great to organise with the organ clock. 

 

i’ll try to have a nap around 11:30-12:30 as example.

 

Early morning abdominal massage and lemon water is great. 
 

Walk and socialize etc around 4pm

 

Do you have ways that you use the waxing and waning of different energies throughout the day that make sense with your habits and routines also?

[Thrice Daily]

@ChiDragon hey can I ask you, what does this say and mean? Thanks Dude 🙏 

[ChiDragon]

35 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

@ChiDragon hey can I ask you, what does this say and mean? Thanks Dude 🙏 

木劍：wooden sword.

Edited October 30 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Thrice Daily said:

後天之 = The Day After Tomorrow 

天之 = Heaven 

後之 = Later 

天 = Sky

後 = Back

Sometimes, google translates things are out of context. What you have here must be interface with human to have a good translation.

 

It seems like that google only translated the first or two characters and ignored the second or third one. Thus it threw the translation completely off.

Edited October 30 by ChiDragon

[Master Logray]

19 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Also I remember pondering this, I think I  must have read about it a while back, but let me just share the understanding I currently have. All in my opinion ChiDragon, but if you have more to add to this (and anyone reading that has pondered this) it would be cool to read it. 

Cooking Rice perfectly is very important no? For this to happen you need right amount of rice and right amount of water, also right intensity of fire and correct duration of cooking in the right pot, to make the rice just perfect. So there are these variables  

 

For me these variables also exist in Chi Cultivation in a similar fashion;

 

• it's no good having too heavy a Qigong practice for current ability (too much rice)
• its no good having too much emotion in practice time (too much water)
• its no good having too much intensity for the current time (too much fire)
• its no good expecting too much from the practice (too big a pot)
• and its no good practicing for too long for current capacity (too much time cooking)

 

Alternatively,

 

• its no good having practice that is too short and scarce (too little rice)
• it's no good being apathetic or too tired in practice (too little water)
• it's no good having poor focus / concentration and nonchalant attitude (too little fire) 
• it's no good being unprepared for effects of the practice in the rest of your regular life (too small a pot)
• and it's no good rushing and doing practice quickly and in little time (too little time cooking) 

 

In both these instances you will have a very bad experience with the RICE and same with QIGONG practices.

 

But get just enough, not too much, not too little and you will get perfect rice / qigong... You can also increase all the variables little by little and still cook perfect rice / qigong, just more of it... etc etc,,,

 

Cooking Rice for me is a very good Analogy when thinking about QIGONG, and energy cultivation in these internal and external arts. 

 

 

What you wrote doesn't really concern Qigong, which is most primary.   Effort on Qigong is quite limited by your own body endurance.  But the writing more relate to the important concept of "Level of Fire",  which is the most closely guarded knowledge of mid to high level cultivation, concerning the practical control of various elements' intensity in the process. 

 

its no good expecting too much from the practice (too big a pot)  -  this one is excellent advice.   Expectation of result, especially in a time related manner, would hamper the effort.

 

BTW engraving the word "Wooden Sword" on a wooden sword is like putting up a sign "Refrigerator" on a refrigerator.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

What you wrote doesn't really concern Qigong, which is most primary.  

Interesting, primary, What is the usage of the word here if I can inquire?

Quote

Effort on Qigong is quite limited by your own body endurance. 
 

Totally agreed, how do you approach these ebbs in your practices, do you have any rules you follow so good endurance is not displaced etc?

Quote

But the writing more relate to the important concept of "Level of Fire",  which is the most closely guarded knowledge of mid to high level cultivation, concerning the practical control of various elements' intensity in the process. 
 

The first time I did Wing Chun with a friend I’d been looking at Wu Xing quite deeply for some months and doing six healing sounds daily, the martial art seemed best filtered through the understandings there to a degree. [element to element] The mechanical learning soon took over though and the earlier sessions were largely lost. I’d like to look at martial partner training again like this at some point. 

Quote

 

 

its no good expecting too much from the practice (too big a pot)  -  this one is excellent advice.   Expectation of result, especially in a time related manner, would hamper the effort.

 

Thankyou, Wu Wei, Ziran, De lead hopefully moment to moment. Always checking, expecting less than relaxing, very quietly.

Quote

BTW engraving the word "Wooden Sword" on a wooden sword is like putting up a sign "Refrigerator" on a refrigerator.

cool 😎 

Edited October 30 by Thrice Daily

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

From Chinese Qigong Therapy - Zhang Mingwu

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Thrice Daily said:

This is quite a nice little article for English speakers who want to read a little about post natal chi;

 

https://www.acenterfornaturalhealing.com/livingafulfilledlifeblog/tag/postnatal+Qi

What the link say about Qi is the exact translation from the book of Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion. This book was used to teach acupuncture. I have both versions of the book in Chinese and English. However, one must read it with a literal filter. The traditional way of explanation of the organs contradicts the western modern science. It is because that I believe western science is more precise, in the explanation,  about the functions of the human organs. Anyway, the information about the four chi of the OP was extracted from the book mentioned above. Also, the information are posted all over the internet.

I have a self advice to myself. I always told myself do not believe everything that I've read. I must compare data with other sources with a more scientific approach with a literal filter. This will help me to isolate the fallacies and myths to have a clear mind at all times. If I am in love with everything on first sight, then, I must be blinded and living like a zombie.

[Thrice Daily]

This is brilliant advice @ChiDragon if only I had the time I would literally read all day… 

 

But then they also say an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory, so go figure.

 

I agree with you processes are well worth learning from western understanding of A&P too. When I trained to be a therapist we had very deep anatomy and physiology course. 
 

IMHO though Wu Xing far surpasses this  western approach for self diagnosis and self treatment (especially acting on emotional body) [then physical catches up etc]. I’ve not treated others with TCM , myself though for 20 years had great results. Really. 6 Healing Sounds ❤️ 

 

Including five animals too…  Tiger , Turtle , Dragon, Phoenix and Tortoise …

  

[ChiDragon]

17 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

後天之 = The Day After Tomorrow 

天之 = Heaven 

後之 = Later 

天 = Sky

後 = Back

I would make to the follow corrections to make it valid for a Native speaker:

後天 = The Day After Tomorrow; postnatal 

天 堂= Heaven 

後來 = Later 

天 = Sky

後 = Back; rear

The character "之" used as "of", a possessive participle, for example,  後天之氣, the chi "of" postnatal or postnatal chi.
Another more precise example: 
人之常情: a normal situation of humanity. 

Edited October 30 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

IMHO though Wu Xing far surpasses this  western approach for self diagnosis and self treatment (especially acting on emotional body) [then physical catches up etc]. I’ve not treated others with TCM , myself though for 20 years had great results. Really. 6 Healing Sounds ❤️ 

I had study the Yijing for years, the Wu Xing was the most common elements found on earth. Taoist used that to practice TCM by using their specific characteristic attributions and assigned them to specific organs. TCM based on their specific characteristic attributions assuming that was the interaction between the organs. I had found that was not very practical. 

When you mention the six sounds, it is inevitable not to mention the hidden secrete of breathing. The sound has to be produced by the moving air in the lung. Actually, it was the breathing air in the body system that make the healing process works. However, most people only pay attention to the material in the front and ignored the background effect. Since you are a therapist, I would strongly recommend you to look into the cellular respiration. It will solve a lot is mysterious issues in this confusing world. I am no chemist but scientific oriented. To be exact, I am a retired electrical/electronic engineer. It took me quite sometime to understand the cellular respiration theory. Right now, there is no doubt in my mind what Qigong is all about. Indeed, I am delighted with the enlightenment. 

[Thrice Daily]

Totally agree with you on the breathing side….. 

 

However,,, the real “bang for its Buck” in the six healing sounds is the Intention work involved in transforming “reframing unhelpful emotion responses” 

 

It works very much in the same way as NLP , it is like a self hypnosis , a psychotherapy session and nlp session all rolled into one, and with stretches and breathing too. 
 

there is a shamanic aspect to this practice and connecting with the animals also seems to help strengthen certain emotional states. 
 

The systematic approach is beyond breathing @ChiDragon you must try it to receive its fruits though… It was very detoxifying for me and extremely powerful at first, now it is much easier to ride the storms that can come from this deep practice. 
 

best thing is it’s a beginner practice, intermediate practice and advanced practice all rolled into one…

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Totally agree with you on the breathing side…..

I am total happy that we are in agreement. Just don't leave home without it.

My other side of the story is that when I design to practiced Taiji. The purpose is to bring my health back to normal and beyond normalcy. However, I practice for years and still  get a terrible cold on three winters in the roll during Thanksgiving. I had to stay home and missed my mother's Thanksgiving dinners. Then, I went online to find out why am I not getting the full effect from practicing Taijj. Fortunately, I had found the true definition of Qigong on a native site.

I think everyone knows what I am going to say now. That is Qigong is about breathing. However, Taiji was considered as a form of Qigong. Since then, I had found another native article about Taiji says: 
Practice Taiji should have the movements coordinate with breathing and the breathing coordinate with the movements.

 had followed that advice and practiced for years, I have accomplished that my health went beyond normalcy. My internal energy(neigong) is incredibly strong. Sorry to say, my libido went up sky high. I have to take up weapon practice to release my energy. Anyway, this is only something passive!

Edited October 30 by ChiDragon