To Chi Or Not To Chi??

[Thrice Daily]

If you had a time machine and you could travel back to before you started Taoist practices.

 

And met face to face with your younger self…

 

What advice would you give the fledgling you?

 

What wisdom/insights would you share? If any.

Edited September 19 by Thrice Daily
Spelling.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

I wouldn’t change anything really. Was nice to not be disciplined and just have fun when I was younger, and my experiences make me appreciate my practice and keeping healthy a lot more now. I have the rest of my life to practice, but at least I also didn’t miss out on anything and got to do what I wanted too. 

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

If you had a time machine and you could travel back to before you started Taoist practices.

 

And met face to face with your younger self…

 

What advice would you give the fledgling you?

 

What wisdom/insights would you share? If any.

 

 

Some of the things must start young.  There is a lot of differences if you start at 15 comparing with 35, or 55.  Those started mid-life can never attain a very good level.  I have seen Yoga, Taichi, other martial arts people have this problem.  Those late starter could have spent significant time, received good teachings and fully dedicated but just seem not there whatever.   

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

I started doing I-ching for friends when I was about 13 with a book from the library, that was probably my earliest exposure to Taoism. I

 

Don't use the I-ching so much now , do have a great book though and sometimes might throw the coins. 

 

If I could go back to the 13 year old me I think I would have insisted on hard physical training. The harder the better, even western boxing as that was most available in my area.

 

I went to one kungfu class when I was 8 or 9. The second lesson though the teacher hit me with a stick like kosh, it put me off. I'd go back to him as well and tell him to not be a chicken and go back the next week. 

 

True though in reality I wouldn't change anything due to being cool with acceptance. 

 

 

[kakapo]

[MOD NOTE: Mopai Quote edited out]

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:19 AM, Thrice Daily said:

If you had a time machine and you could travel back to before you started Taoist practices.

 

And met face to face with your younger self…

 

What advice would you give the fledgling you?

 

What wisdom/insights would you share? If any.
 

 

 

This, 'cause attending the free location of consciousness makes me happy--from my own site:

 

 

On a forum site I frequent (Dao Bums, in fact!), someone wrote:

 

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

 

 

I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself. (1)

 

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. (2)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (3)

 

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. (4)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… (4)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

 

 

1 Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833
2 “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176; © 1988 The Regents of the University of California
3) see “Appendix–A Way of Living”
4) “Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi, from “Moon in a Dewdrop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen”, p 69, © San Francisco Zen Center

 

("Take the Backward Step")

 

 

What's missing for a lot of people, and for me when I started out, is the experience of the relationship between the free location of consciousness and the cessation of habit/volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation.  I think it helps, to know what I'm looking for when I sit down (or stand up and dance!).

 

 

Edited September 22 by Mark Foote

[kakapo]

On 9/19/2024 at 3:19 AM, Thrice Daily said:

If you had a time machine and you could travel back to before you started Taoist practices.

 

And met face to face with your younger self…

 

What advice would you give the fledgling you?

 

What wisdom/insights would you share? If any.

 

 

When I first started I was very very naive. 

 

I assumed that if a person wrote a book about qigong, then that must mean the contents were true and accurate.

 

I assumed that if a person sold DVDs or videos, and taught classes this meant they were offering a system which did something more than placebo. 

 

As I have gotten older I have learned that almost 100 percent of all, books, videos, teachers, and systems do not actually do anything at all. 

 

I would teach my younger self of the value of seeing evidence that is provided with scientists and medical doctors present so they can do their best to rule out fraud occurring.

[forestofclarity]

MOD NOTE: @Lukks, FYSA, Mopai discussion is banned on this site. Thanks for understanding. 

 

 

[Gerard]

10 hours ago, kakapo said:

As I have gotten older I have learned that almost 100 percent of all, books, videos, teachers, and systems do not actually do anything at all. 

You either:

 

1. Aren't ready

2. Haven't met a real life teacher (a must when one first starts walking this path). 
 

Proven systems by many practitioners:

 

1. Vipassana

 

2. Chinese Internal Martial Arts, namely Baguazhang & Xingyiquan

 

The Internet is not and will never be a qualified teacher that delivers results. It only serves its purpose of being a medium of information. Same applies to books and audiovisual material. 

[kakapo]

17 hours ago, Gerard said:

You either:

 

1. Aren't ready

2. Haven't met a real life teacher (a must when one first starts walking this path). 
 

Proven systems by many practitioners:

 

1. Vipassana

 

2. Chinese Internal Martial Arts, namely Baguazhang & Xingyiquan

 

The Internet is not and will never be a qualified teacher that delivers results. It only serves its purpose of being a medium of information. Same applies to books and audiovisual material. 

 

I personally have spent tens of thousands of dollars with various teachers for in person instruction over the years, [Redacted]

 

[Redacted]

 

I am a part of a larger group and we've collectively spent several hundred thousand traveling to find teachers.

 

Nothing legit has turned up in our searches, [Redacted] 

 

There may be teachers and individuals who have attainments via the practices you mention but I am not aware of them. 
 

Most practices do not actually do anything except make your wallet lighter.

 

Real teachings, and real teachers are exceedingly rare.

Edited September 24 by kakapo

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I personally have spent tens of thousands of dollars with various teachers for in person instruction over the years, and I've only ever found one teacher that offered something real. 

 

Ironically the one teacher that offered something real, never charged me anything.

 

I am a part of a larger group and we've collectively spent several hundred thousand traveling to find teachers.

 

Nothing legit has turned up in our searches, except for one.  

 

There may be teachers and individuals who have attainments via the practices you mention but I am not aware of them. 
 

Most practices do not actually do anything except make your wallet lighter.

 

Real teachings, and real teachers are exceedingly rare.

Funny, I have the opposite problem. Found many legit teachers, but not enough time to learn from all of them. 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Funny, I have the opposite problem. Found many legit teachers, but not enough time to learn from all of them. 

 

[Thrice Daily]

To trust or not to trust..

 

That is the question. I’m sandwiched between both answers. A teacher can teach in a moment, or years…

 

A student can be ready at one time for one teacher, and another time for another teacher. 
 

Sometimes we meet in harmonious place, sometimes we clash. Who knows who and when?

 

And sometimes the best teachings are simple demonstrations…

 

Or maybe even the best teachings are found in stillness, in quiet in a temple or shrine in front of statue or statuette .

 

Or simply out in nature with earth trees and skies.

 

Guess we’re all different, like that, in a way at least. 

Edited September 23 by Thrice Daily

[Neirong]

4 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Funny, I have the opposite problem. Found many legit teachers, but not enough time to learn from all of them. 

 

Imagine being unable to rely on your discernment, experience, and senses and decide based on "XYZ told me "this is legit" because of "video recording made for entertainment industry half a decade ago."
 

6 hours ago, kakapo said:

Real teachings, and real teachers are exceedingly rare.

In reality, that is not the case. People come into schools and meet teachers they "resonate" with. It is common to join something you like and agree with. So, if you end up getting scammed endlessly, the problem is within you or other members of your group who have similar experiences.

There are plenty of working practices/teachers/methods out there that could be used for the start and change someones life dramatically.

 

On the other hand, people drop and avoid training they do "not like" or cannot stomach.

I have seen many such cases when people driven by their Ego and internal flaws jump into a questionable practice/cult and driven by the same Ego and internal flaws; they avoid any real teaching/working method as if dodging a nightmare, a nightmare that can strip their worldviews and destroy their Ego.

These people don't look for a real change, they only look for something that would suit their Self/Ego, like a social club or a clothing set.

 

We do not have to go far with this example. I have personally banned you and some other people from various groups who behaved similarly on our training Discord.

Beyond just being disrespectful and lacking basic manners.

I think you said something among the lines, what if you had the most talented, most hardworking student, that is exceptional on all fronts (talking about yourself), and he dedicated a 20 years to your practices daily, what would he achieve?

You did not even read/comprehend that the foundation training program is 4 years long.

Living inside your own small world.

[Thrice Daily]

Not to mention hierarchy internal politics, power grabbers, money grabbers, and worse still the pathological types that tend to gravitate to decent groups, particularly group leaders. 
 

in a word Ego/False Ego

 

So sad isn’t it. Jealousy Envy - Shame Guilt can poison otherwise great groups with just one or two insidious characters in the mix… 

 

I spent some time living in intentional communities / eco tourism camps. 
All the rage, unfortunately.

 

Disparaging as it is though, Even the darkest of places and times deserve a candlelight to steer people through. 
 

I think it’s one of the most enduring characteristics of traditions like Taoism and Buddhism, even in the darkest times and places, the practices found their way through, being preserved and passed on by the faithful. 
 

Why Ride The Horse , when you can levitate above it… indeed indeed…

 

 

[Gerard]

9 hours ago, kakapo said:

I am a part of a larger group and we've collectively spent several hundred thousand traveling to find teachers.

 

Nothing legit has turned up in our searches, except for one.  

 

There may be teachers and individuals who have attainments via the practices you mention but I am not aware of them. 

 

 

1. Where did you guys traveled to?

 

He Jinghan in Taipei Taiwan is legit but expect BRUTAL work under his guidance. Not for weak, lazy or casual practitioners

 

2. My teacher is legit too. Geoff Sweeting (Brisbane, Australia). His Xingyi teacher and uncle (Roy Jensen) is legit too. Based in Margaret River, WA Australia. 
His Baguazhang teacher, Wang Tong, based in Beijing is also legit. 
 

3. I'm legit too if I decide to teach

 

4. The Vipassana centre (like many in Thailand and Burma) I went to in Chom Tong near Chiang Mai, Thailand, is legit too. You'll be meditating 3-4 weeks non-stop. Feel free to even meditate longer than that in those monasteries. The sky is the limit.

 

Ultimately is you that needs to accept CHANGE and COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION OF YOURSELF. 
 

You'll end up waking alone once you need to let go of your teacher in the end.

......................

 

Why aren't you learning from that one you found legit in your searches? 

[Shadow_self]

9 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

1. Where did you guys traveled to?

 

He Jinghan in Taipei Taiwan is legit but expect BRUTAL work under his guidance. Not for weak, lazy or casual practitioners

 

2. My teacher is legit too. Geoff Sweeting (Brisbane, Australia). His Xingyi teacher and uncle (Roy Jensen) is legit too. Based in Margaret River, WA Australia. 
His Baguazhang teacher, Wang Tong, based in Beijing is also legit. 
 

3. I'm legit too if I decide to teach

 

4. The Vipassana centre (like many in Thailand and Burma) I went to in Chom Tong near Chiang Mai, Thailand, is legit too. You'll be meditating 3-4 weeks non-stop. Feel free to even meditate longer than that in those monasteries. The sky is the limit.

 

Ultimately is you that needs to accept CHANGE and COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION OF YOURSELF. 
 

You'll end up waking alone once you need to let go of your teacher in the end.

......................

 

Why aren't you learning from that one you found legit in your searches? 

 

 

Edited September 23 by Shadow_self

[forestofclarity]

MOD NOTE: Let's not discuss Mopai, directly or indirectly. There have been indirect allusions in this thread. Let's just drop it and move on without forcing the mods to hide, edit posts, or lock the thread. Thank you. 

[kakapo]

4 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Imagine being unable to rely on your discernment, experience, and senses and decide based on "XYZ told me "this is legit" because of "video recording made for entertainment industry half a decade ago."
 

In reality, that is not the case. People come into schools and meet teachers they "resonate" with. It is common to join something you like and agree with. So, if you end up getting scammed endlessly, the problem is within you or other members of your group who have similar experiences.

There are plenty of working practices/teachers/methods out there that could be used for the start and change someones life dramatically.

 

On the other hand, people drop and avoid training they do "not like" or cannot stomach.

I have seen many such cases when people driven by their Ego and internal flaws jump into a questionable practice/cult and driven by the same Ego and internal flaws; they avoid any real teaching/working method as if dodging a nightmare, a nightmare that can strip their worldviews and destroy their Ego.

These people don't look for a real change, they only look for something that would suit their Self/Ego, like a social club or a clothing set.

 

We do not have to go far with this example. I have personally banned you and some other people from various groups who behaved similarly on our training Discord.

Beyond just being disrespectful and lacking basic manners.

I think you said something among the lines, what if you had the most talented, most hardworking student, that is exceptional on all fronts (talking about yourself), and he dedicated a 20 years to your practices daily, what would he achieve?

You did not even read/comprehend that the foundation training program is 4 years long.

Living inside your own small world.

 

 

I am certain that plenty of people find practices they resonate with. 

 

That however doesn't mean the practice leads anywhere.

 

Also asking what end results could be expected seems like a reasonable question to ask does it not?

 

Some people claim to have eye lasers, run faster than light, fight ancient inter-dimensional naga demons, create brain power injections, and lower dan tien chargers, and inter dimensional portal openers, and all sorts of things. 

 

Are we to assume these claims are true without evidence?

 

Asking what results can be expected, and what evidence is available to substantiate those claims isn't being disrespectful at all in my opinion.

 

Edited September 23 by kakapo

[kakapo]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

 

Shadow_self,

 

I would like to tell you about a specific example. 

 

We offered to travel to meet a teacher who is promoted here on thedaobums.

 

He has posted videos of himself displaying a Siddhi.

 

We offered several thousand US dollars to control the conditions under which he displayed the Siddhi.

 

We would choose the location, use a metal detector, etc.

 

We were told no.

 

To us it seems suspect to have no problem posting youtube videos, but refusing to demonstrate in private under controlled conditions when being paid an absurd amount of money.

 

Our conclusion based on this behavior was that the person was not legit. 

 

I am not going to drop names because I am sure it would upset some people here, and that isn't my intention.

 

To us it seems reasonable to ask for evidence.

Edited September 23 by kakapo

[Lukks]

On 22/09/2024 at 8:23 PM, forestofclarity said:

MOD NOTE: @Lukks, FYSA, Mopai discussion is banned on this site. Thanks for understanding. 

 

 

Oh sure, I wasn't actually promoting the practice of it I actually warned against it, but now I get it, no talk about mopai at all haha, thanks for the warning😁

[Shadow_self]

57 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

 

Shadow_self,

 

I would like to tell you about a specific example. 

 

We offered to travel to meet a teacher who is promoted here on thedaobums.

 

He has posted videos of himself displaying a Siddhi.

 

We offered several thousand US dollars to control the conditions under which he displayed the Siddhi.

 

We would choose the location, use a metal detector, etc.

 

We were told no.

 

To us it seems suspect to have no problem posting youtube videos, but refusing to demonstrate in private under controlled conditions when being paid an absurd amount of money.

 

Our conclusion based on this behavior was that the person was not legit. 

 

I am not going to drop names because I am sure it upset some people here, and that isn't my intention.

 

To us it seems reasonable to ask for evidence.

 

I was just joking   I share the belief that evidence is useful

 

From what ive enocuntered, anyone with abilties, tends to be hush about them. Its usually behind closed doors only. There are exceptions to that rule. But historically, its never ended well for them

 

Ive spoken about this ad nauseum lately, but if a practice is truly working to transform ones nature, it should anchor into the physical body. If it doesnt, then its not legitimate in my opinion

 

At the very least, a teacher should be able to demonstrate some of these signs. Though some of the stuff ive come across is far weirder. Id stick with the physical and tangible

 

Id be adamant that the best practices are the ones which prove themselves. In fact, id go as far as to argue thats the only absolute proof you'll get

 

Seeing someone demonstrate something even under the most rigorous of conditions still does not guarantee that the things they are claiming developed these things is what they will share, or that theres not some other variable thats been concealed

 

At some point, one has to take a gamble. It might pay off, then again you could be left empty handed  

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

 

Shadow_self,

 

I would like to tell you about a specific example. 

 

We offered to travel to meet a teacher who is promoted here on thedaobums.

 

He has posted videos of himself displaying a Siddhi.

 

We offered several thousand US dollars to control the conditions under which he displayed the Siddhi.

 

We would choose the location, use a metal detector, etc.

 

We were told no.

 

To us it seems suspect to have no problem posting youtube videos, but refusing to demonstrate in private under controlled conditions when being paid an absurd amount of money.

 

Our conclusion based on this behavior was that the person was not legit. 

 

I am not going to drop names because I am sure it would upset some people here, and that isn't my intention.

 

To us it seems reasonable to ask for evidence.

Have you or your group considered that your approach is what stops you gaining access to legit teachers?

 

A teacher owes you nothing, you are a nobody to them. In these arts it is you who needs to gain the trust of a teacher, not the other way round. What do you have to offer them? Throwing money at them won’t magically open doors, and honestly it is quite insulting to them. Even if they do decide to teach you after you offer an “absurd amount of money” to them, you will be nothing more than a walking ATM in their eyes.

Have you tried just being human? Forget about all this western bullshit and take an Asian approach, especially if you are trying to learn an Asian art. If you want to learn from a teacher, or even just meet them then first find one of their students and befriend them. Show you can be trusted, help them out if they need and then if they like you enough they will introduce you. 

 

Throwing money at teachers and making demands that are all on your terms is just arrogant, and will get you nowhere. 

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Have you or your group considered that your approach is what stops you gaining access to legit teachers?

 

A teacher owes you nothing, you are a nobody to them. In these arts it is you who needs to gain the trust of a teacher, not the other way round. What do you have to offer them? Throwing money at them won’t magically open doors, and honestly it is quite insulting to them. Even if they do decide to teach you after you offer an “absurd amount of money” to them, you will be nothing more than a walking ATM in their eyes.

Have you tried just being human? Forget about all this western bullshit and take an Asian approach, especially if you are trying to learn an Asian art. If you want to learn from a teacher, or even just meet them then first find one of their students and befriend them. Show you can be trusted, help them out if they need and then if they like you enough they will introduce you. 

 

Throwing money at teachers and making demands that are all on your terms is just arrogant, and will get you nowhere. 

 

As much as I agree with that I was told in Taiwan it was custom to bring your would be teacher a gift. 
 

I felt a little weird doing it to be honest as it was not genuinely self motivated, felt a bit forced , never the less I did. 
 

Much better being genuine. It’s a heart led connection I think that is important and a mutual understanding. Like process of life, trust and respect developing naturally at its own pace. 
 

Asking for proof is a little difficult unless we are talking about physical techniques right. Even then not 100% clear cut, especially demonstrated with opponent/willing opponent 

 

Also I think there is an element of needing the teaching and the teacher, that makes it most likely and beneficial.

 

There is a ‘meant to be’ moment of sincerity that is often lost throwing money around.

 

I found this similar working as massage therapist. The people with the money that wanted the treatments didn’t so much need them, they were generally healthy and well kept. Just sightseeing and kinda bored.

 

not really searching for health intervention or healing at any deeper level. 

They would probably not get a very deep treatment either when they paid for it and got it.

 

They came for a different reason. 
 

Nice lunch and a bit of cake is not the same as fasting.
 

Seek and ye shall find. 
 

Seek bullsh*t and you will probably find it…

[Thrice Daily]

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

At the very least, a teacher should be able to demonstrate some of these signs. Though some of the stuff ive come across is far weirder. Id stick with the physical and tangible

10 hours ago, kakapo said:

12 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Ultimately is you that needs to accept CHANGE and COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION OF YOURSELF. 

 

 

As much as I agree with that I was told in Taiwan it was custom to bring your would be teacher a gift. 
 

I felt a little weird doing it to be honest as it was not genuinely self motivated, felt a bit forced , never the less I did. 
 

Much better being genuine. It’s a heart led connection I think that is important and a mutual understanding. Like process of life, trust and respect developing naturally at its own pace. 
 

Asking for proof is a little difficult unless we are talking about physical techniques right. Even then not 100% clear cut, especially demonstrated with opponent/willing opponent 

 

Also I think there is an element of needing the teaching and the teacher, that makes it most likely and beneficial.

 

There is a ‘meant to be’ moment of sincerity that is often lost throwing money around.

 

I found this similar working as massage therapist. The people with the money that wanted the treatments didn’t so much need them, they were generally healthy and well kept. Just sightseeing and kinda bored.

 

not really searching for health intervention or healing at any deeper level. 

They would probably not get a very deep treatment either when they paid for it and got it.

 

They came for a different reason. 
 

Nice lunch and a bit of cake is not the same as fasting.
 

Seek and ye shall find. 
 

Seek bullsh*t and you will probably find it…