To Chi Or Not To Chi??

[Shadow_self]

22 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Asking for proof is a little difficult unless we are talking about physical techniques right. Even then not 100% clear cut, especially demonstrated with opponent/willing opponent 

 

I am not talking about any kind of technique

 

I am talking about physical changes in the human body. They are a sign that change has/is occuring somewhere further back

 

The most famous one would be a physical, palpable lower dan tien, along with the usual ability to  issue qi.

 

Its nothing spectacular, just a byproduct of proper Yijinjing training

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Have you or your group considered that your approach is what stops you gaining access to legit teachers?

 

A teacher owes you nothing, you are a nobody to them. In these arts it is you who needs to gain the trust of a teacher, not the other way round. What do you have to offer them? Throwing money at them won’t magically open doors, and honestly it is quite insulting to them. Even if they do decide to teach you after you offer an “absurd amount of money” to them, you will be nothing more than a walking ATM in their eyes.

Have you tried just being human? Forget about all this western bullshit and take an Asian approach, especially if you are trying to learn an Asian art. If you want to learn from a teacher, or even just meet them then first find one of their students and befriend them. Show you can be trusted, help them out if they need and then if they like you enough they will introduce you. 

 

Throwing money at teachers and making demands that are all on your terms is just arrogant, and will get you nowhere. 

 

 

If the teacher claims to have a Siddhi, and can post a youtube video of it...  

 

It would seem reasonable to allow potential students to investigate under controlled conditions, especially if being offered a ton of cash to do it. 

 

From our perspective this indicates trickery is probably being used.

 

You are correct a teacher owes us nothing, but we aren't obligated to pursue scam practices either.

 

One of our members trained for 10 years with a very popular school recommended here, and has nothing to show for it. 

 

All the practices he learned were something right out of a mantak chia book.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

12 minutes ago, kakapo said:

It would seem reasonable to allow potential students to investigate under controlled conditions, especially if being offered a ton of cash to do it. 

 

From our perspective this indicates trickery is probably being used.

And yet you probably have missed out on a legit practice because of this.

 

The simplest way to find out of a teacher is legit is to check who their teacher is and what lineage they are from, and to see what their students have achieved. 
 

Or since you guys have so much money to burn, just send one person to learn first. Then if it’s good you all join after. 

Edited September 24 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

16 minutes ago, kakapo said:

One of our members trained for 10 years with a very popular school recommended here, and has nothing to show for it. 

Absolutely nothing at all? Then why did he carry on with it for a decade?

[kakapo]

8 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

And yet you probably have missed out on a legit practice because of this.

 

The simplest way to find out of a teacher is legit is to check who their teacher is and what lineage they are from, and to see what their students have achieved. 
 

Or since you guys have so much money to burn, just send one person to learn first. Then if it’s good you all join after. 

 

As I've stated repeatedly we've done that, and we've found nothing [Redacted]

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

As I've stated repeatedly we've done that, and we've found nothing [Redacted]

 

You’ve tested every teacher in the world? Clearly not. And just because a teacher refuses to be tested by you doesn’t mean that they aren’t legit.

 

You really are just limiting yourself with this mindset while others grow.

[kakapo]

1 minute ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Absolutely nothing at all? Then why did he carry on with it for a decade?

 

10 years ago it was in vogue here on thedaobums. 

 

It was all anyone could talk about. 

 

Also I suppose a bit of a sunk-cost fallacy, hoping maybe next year he could get the real teachings, and graduate from mantak chia nonsense.

[Thrice Daily]

17 minutes ago, kakapo said:

You are correct a teacher owes us nothing, but we aren't obligated to pursue scam practices either.

 

One of our members trained for 10 years with a very popular school recommended here, and has nothing to show for it. 

 

All the practices he learned were something right out of a mantak chia book.

Really don’t get this nothing to show for it business people talk about.

 

i’m struggling to understand how anyone can develop a daily practice and not find it valuable 

 

Perhaps the most value comes from not looking for value, 

 

Im struggling to understand your concept of obtaining something

 

For me it’s been more a process of stripping away layers of delusion to really more of what really is rather that what I think things are to be.

 

What starts as a big deal, generally tends to end up being no big deal

 

Bringing me to my next question, what is it exactly that students expect teachers to do? 
 

I understand being on correct course can be important, otherwise with one tiny deviation we could end up being 1000’s of miles away from where we are ‘supposed’ to be

 

But isn’t that exactly where we are ‘supposed to be’ isn’t that the point?

 

I don’t want to force the point, but still… 
 

To really learn to me, develop our song etc that’s it no? Relax, contract, repeat, release, let go…

 

i must have spent around a year doing absolutely nothing but earth. Literally a lot of time I was barefoot. And I tried to only give reverence to the earth I was standing on beneath my feet. That was it really , May be boring , but didn’t play with anything else.

 

Talking, I tried to talk only for the benefit of those around me and really moved out of my own way. 
 

Arguably this was more valuable than a teacher, and how things were back when ‘I’ was looking for something for ‘me’ 

 

I’m not sure what people expect from teachers? 
 

If they are real I’m surprised more of them don’t disappear and become the hidden masters 

 

they are probably far better off being. 
 

Just being, unless they are doing Neidan

[kakapo]

Just now, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

You’ve tested every teacher in the world? Clearly not. And just because a teacher refuses to be tested by you doesn’t mean that they aren’t legit.

 

You really are just limiting yourself with this mindset while others grow.

 

Obviously we've not tested every teacher.

 

You are correct that posting videos of you performing a Siddhi, and then turning down thousands of dollars to replicate it under controlled conditions doesn't necessarily prove fraud, but it is cause for concern.

 

As a potential student it would appear that the teacher was a fraud if they were not willing to do this.

 

While teachers owe us nothing, it doesn't make sense to invest years of our life and spend oodles of money if there is no good evidence the practice does anything at all.  

 

If you disagree, then we can agree to disagree.

[kakapo]

2 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Really don’t get this nothing to show for it business people talk about.

 

i’m struggling to understand how anyone can develop a daily practice and not find it valuable 

 

Perhaps the most value comes from not looking for value, 

 

Im struggling to understand your concept of obtaining something

 

For me it’s been more a process of stripping away layers of delusion to really more of what really is rather that what I think things are to be.

 

What starts as a big deal, generally tends to end up being no big deal

 

Bringing me to my next question, what is it exactly that students expect teachers to do? 
 

I understand being on correct course can be important, otherwise with one tiny deviation we could end up being 1000’s of miles away from where we are ‘supposed’ to be

 

But isn’t that exactly where we are ‘supposed to be’ isn’t that the point?

 

I don’t want to force the point, but still… 
 

To really learn to me, develop our song etc that’s it no? Relax, contract, repeat, release, let go…

 

i must have spent around a year doing absolutely nothing but earth. Literally a lot of time I was barefoot. And I tried to only give reverence to the earth I was standing on beneath my feet. That was it really , May be boring , but didn’t play with anything else.

 

Talking, I tried to talk only for the benefit of those around me and really moved out of my own way. 
 

Arguably this was more valuable than a teacher, and how things were back when ‘I’ was looking for something for ‘me’ 

 

I’m not sure what people expect from teachers? 
 

If they are real I’m surprised more of them don’t disappear and become the hidden masters 

 

they are probably far better off being. 
 

Just being, unless they are doing Neidan

 

Bringing me to my next question, what is it exactly that students expect teachers to do? 

 

I’m not sure what people expect from teachers? 

 

Siddhis

 

Edited September 24 by kakapo

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

7 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

Obviously we've not tested every teacher.

 

You are correct that posting videos of you performing a Siddhi, and then turning down thousands of dollars to replicate it under controlled conditions doesn't necessarily prove fraud, but it is cause for concern.

 

As a potential student it would appear that the teacher was a fraud if they were not willing to do this.

 

While teachers owe us nothing, it doesn't make sense to invest years of our life and spend oodles of money if there is no good evidence the practice does anything at all.  

 

If you disagree, then we can agree to disagree.

Well let’s up the stakes a bit. Who is this one single legit teacher in this entire world that you’ve discovered?

[Thrice Daily]

7 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

Bringing me to my next question, what is it exactly that students expect teachers to do? 

 

I’m not sure what people expect from teachers? 

 

Siddhis

 

I think you’d have to be in a pretty special place to find one of those

[Shadow_self]

48 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

If the teacher claims to have a Siddhi, and can post a youtube video of it...  

 

It would seem reasonable to allow potential students to investigate under controlled conditions, especially if being offered a ton of cash to do it. 

 

From our perspective this indicates trickery is probably being used.

 

You are correct a teacher owes us nothing, but we aren't obligated to pursue scam practices either.

 

One of our members trained for 10 years with a very popular school recommended here, and has nothing to show for it. 

 

All the practices he learned were something right out of a mantak chia book.

 

Id like to know how this occured

 

You'd need to provide a decent argument the issue was with the school and not the person to be honest

 

Ive met all manner of people, from those who have developed abilties, to those who have pursued dead ends, and to those who have found legitimate practices and not bothered to put in the hard work

 

Its rarely as cut and dry as people paint it

 

FYI, im not familiar with the school, I wasnt on TDB a decade ago, so ive no idea what you are talking about. Im more referring to a general observation

Edited September 24 by Shadow_self

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

24 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think you’d have to be in a pretty special place to find one of those

 

It’s easier than you think. Where are you based?

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

The most famous one would be a physical, palpable lower dan tien, along with the usual ability to  issue qi.

 

Its nothing spectacular, just a byproduct of proper Yijinjing training

Fair point. My teacher who taught Yijinjing had this, it was also like he was wearing a coat of heavy relaxed muscle all over his body. 
 

It must have taken him some time to develop. 
 

Do you find you found this development in your body?

 

I haven’t personally had long lasting results like this to be quite honest.

[Thrice Daily]

4 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

It’s easier than you think. Where are you based?

Eastern Poland around 40 minutes from Belarus

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Fair point. My teacher who taught Yijinjing had this, it was also like he was wearing a coat of heavy relaxed muscle all over his body. 
 

It must have taken him some time to develop. 
 

Do you find you found this development in your body?

 

I haven’t personally had long lasting results like this to be quite honest.

 

That quality mentioned above is whats known as "steel wrapped in cotton"

 

Its what you often see in the Shaolin Monks tbh. Its a byproduct of proper Yijinjing training, and a very good sign  

 

While i dont want to get too specfic, I have had developments and results that are in line with correct Yijinjing training  

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Eastern Poland around 40 minutes from Belarus

Ah I don’t know of anyone near you but maybe @Neirong can help in that general region.

 

If you want to feel what qi emission (faqi) from a high level master feels like, I recommend going to Singapore and pay a visit to Dr Ho. The consultation only costs $50 Singapore dollars and he will zap you with his qi to diagnose any conditions you may have. Feels like an electric shock.

 

There are many other masters throughout the world who can do this, and use qi emission (faqi) in different ways, but he is definitely the easiest and cheapest way to experience it. You just have to fly all the way to Singapore first. Some masters charge thousands of dollars, but to be fair they also provide a more in depth service than Dr Ho, and use qi to heal rather than just for diagnosis. 

 

But don’t bother trying to learn anything from him, he only teaches his family members. 

Here is his address:

 

 

FYI I also found a master in London (where I currently live) who can emit qi, but does it in a different way. Massages various parts of your body while zapping you with it. However he doesn’t want me to share his details, plus is very hard to get in contact with to arrange a visit. Took me months to see him once, which was a few years ago now, and haven’t seen him since. I still keep in touch every now and then. Only cost £50 too! 
 

So you never know who could be in your area. Just keep an open mind, plus open eyes and ears and you may find your way to someone interesting.

 

Heres a video of him zapping my wife with his qi:

 

 

Edited September 24 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[forestofclarity]

My advice would be to see how the teacher embodies awareness, kindness, compassion, joy for others and equanimity, and if the teaching tends to develop these qualities in my body-mind, even incrementally. If so, that is the right way to go. Trust the process, and let it unfold.

 

I've tended to let go of teachings when I've found that they foster greed, ignorance, or hatred. 

 

Are these things measurable? Actually, yes, and the evidence is sufficiently compelling that the people doing the measuring are showing up on more and more retreats.  

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

My advice would be to see how the teacher embodies awareness, kindness, compassion, joy for others and equanimity, and if the teaching tends to develop these qualities in my body-mind, even incrementally. If so, that is the right way to go. Trust the process, and let it unfold.

 

I've tended to let go of teachings when I've found that they foster greed, ignorance, or hatred. 

 

Are these things measurable? Actually, yes, and the evidence is sufficiently compelling that the people doing the measuring are showing up on more and more retreats.  

 

 

That’s good. It’s a shame about the power grabbers and money grabbers. 
 

Negative emotions are certainly not what you need being exuded from the teacher. 
 

One thing if I could travel back to the younger me. I’d tell myself to be less judgmental of teachers too.

 

Early on I had a tendency to go to a class then come home and read everything I could on the subject only to return to the class and really be looking to judge the teacher for being (my idea of) right or wrong. 
 

Sometimes in terms of safety it was good to be like that. Yoga teachers recklessly encouraging neck rolls , things like that.

 

That aside though it was extremely hampering. Judging teachers from the level I was at because I’d done a bit of reading was not cool.

 

I did similar for a little while with Mahayana Buddhism, thinking everyone was trapped in Samsara, was self cherishing and a virtually couldn’t see the truth of the teachings , for something like seeing them paying eachother compliments on material accessories they may have been wearing. 
 

I’ve found helping people snap out of their own suffering for even a moment is a valuable practice, ,  and really doesn’t leave me wanting anything. 
 

Having another look back at the past , gives me a chance to see past teachers as the flawed and incomplete people they are just trying to get through life like me. 
 

Feel blessed to have picked up anything from them really… 

 

I’ve learned loads over the years in the most unlikely of moments. Whether it’s brushing my teeth standing on one leg, or massaging my eye sockets whilst sitting on the toilet.

All valuable stuff… 

 

All this talk of Mantak Chia being crap, I’ve really got to wrap my head around it. I’ve not been on this forum for ten years but it seems people really don’t like him and think his books are rubbish. 
 

I'm still processing this to be honest. 
I’ve got a lot of practical gains from his material to say the least…

 

Edited September 24 by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, kakapo said:

Also I suppose a bit of a sunk-cost fallacy, hoping maybe next year he could get the real teachings, and graduate from mantak chia nonsense.

If I travelled back to the younger me before I started with Mantaks Iron Shirt, Inner Smile and 6 sounds I’m pretty sure I’d still tell myself to get stuck in.

 

I mean the postures in the books have got some serious age to them. Embracing the tree goes back to the Han Dynasty ,

 

the golden turtle and buffalo postures must go way back too, animal frolics or older?

 

Holding the golden urn, yin and Yang position is simply the body symmetrical arms twisted one way most and the other way most. 

Awesome shapes , especially if you do kungfu eg White Crane [again extremely old, maybe even the oldest of the popularised animal styles] , or WC

 

The usefulness of these postures in evident if anyone has been practicing diligently enough for a length of time (or just has been blessed with an intuitive body) 

 

Yeah I’m glad I know them and I’ll hasten to add. I bet they are as old as Qigong and Neidan itself…..

 

Personally speaking I feel similar about inner smile and 6 healing sounds . I can’t understand how and why someone would bash them. 
The six sounds is a strong and vigorous procedure that is deeply affecting the organs and emotional health of the practitioner . 
 

6 sounds earliest written complete records appeared around 500 CE 

(could even be earlier)

 

Should I not practice 6 sounds because Mantak taught them (and quite well to be honest) to us westerners… 

 

Should I not pay attention to my organs with gentle relaxed wi wei attention because Mantak Chia again taught it to us Westerners.

 

Of course not. 
 

I’ve just got a respect for him. I’ve heard the stories… about his master and where he got the teachings or didn’t. I take him at face value though and just respect him in terms of what I’ve learned 

 

about the connection I have with myself and the universe through his teachings. 
 

Nothing more to say really. I feel sad for people that hurt themselves with his stuff but feel even worse for people that don’t know any of his stuff (just universal Taoist common sense really) and bash it anyway.

 

Prove me wrong if you got a good argument against I’d love to read it…

 

Rant over. Yeah I’m still cool with my younger self following the Mantak books. I’d just say, ‘chill out a bit you don’t need to breathe so hard’ 😂  ‘70% everyday Is a way better way to go , I’ll totally agree with that ethos’

 

Edited September 24 by Thrice Daily

[kakapo]

13 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Well let’s up the stakes a bit. Who is this one single legit teacher in this entire world that you’ve discovered?

 

I would be happy to have that conversation with you, but it will have to happen outside of this forum.

 

https://old.reddit.com/user/I_Am_Kakapo/

[email protected]

You can send me an email, or message me on reddit if you prefer.

 

 

Edited September 25 by kakapo

[kakapo]

12 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Id like to know how this occured

 

You'd need to provide a decent argument the issue was with the school and not the person to be honest

 

Ive met all manner of people, from those who have developed abilties, to those who have pursued dead ends, and to those who have found legitimate practices and not bothered to put in the hard work

 

Its rarely as cut and dry as people paint it

 

FYI, im not familiar with the school, I wasnt on TDB a decade ago, so ive no idea what you are talking about. Im more referring to a general observation

 

 

The decent argument is that worldwide there are only a small handful of schools and teachers that do something more than placebo.

Edited September 25 by kakapo

[kakapo]

9 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

If I travelled back to the younger me before I started with Mantaks Iron Shirt, Inner Smile and 6 sounds I’m pretty sure I’d still tell myself to get stuck in.

 

I mean the postures in the books have got some serious age to them. Embracing the tree goes back to the Han Dynasty ,

 

the golden turtle and buffalo postures must go way back too, animal frolics or older?

 

Holding the golden urn, yin and Yang position is simply the body symmetrical arms twisted one way most and the other way most. 

Awesome shapes , especially if you do kungfu eg White Crane [again extremely old, maybe even the oldest of the popularised animal styles] , or WC

 

The usefulness of these postures in evident if anyone has been practicing diligently enough for a length of time (or just has been blessed with an intuitive body) 

 

Yeah I’m glad I know them and I’ll hasten to add. I bet they are as old as Qigong and Neidan itself…..

 

Personally speaking I feel similar about inner smile and 6 healing sounds . I can’t understand how and why someone would bash them. 
The six sounds is a strong and vigorous procedure that is deeply affecting the organs and emotional health of the practitioner . 
 

6 sounds earliest written complete records appeared around 500 CE 

(could even be earlier)

 

Should I not practice 6 sounds because Mantak taught them (and quite well to be honest) to us westerners… 

 

Should I not pay attention to my organs with gentle relaxed wi wei attention because Mantak Chia again taught it to us Westerners.

 

Of course not. 
 

I’ve just got a respect for him. I’ve heard the stories… about his master and where he got the teachings or didn’t. I take him at face value though and just respect him in terms of what I’ve learned 

 

about the connection I have with myself and the universe through his teachings. 
 

Nothing more to say really. I feel sad for people that hurt themselves with his stuff but feel even worse for people that don’t know any of his stuff (just universal Taoist common sense really) and bash it anyway.

 

Prove me wrong if you got a good argument against I’d love to read it…

 

Rant over. Yeah I’m still cool with my younger self following the Mantak books. I’d just say, ‘chill out a bit you don’t need to breathe so hard’ 😂  ‘70% everyday Is a way better way to go , I’ll totally agree with that ethos’

 

 

A teaching or lineage being old doesn't make it legit. 

 

There were plenty of delusional people back in ye olden times.

 

The advice I would give my younger self would be not to waste your time on a teacher or practice unless there is compelling evidence it does something,  personal testimony is not good enough.

 

Edited September 25 by kakapo

[Shadow_self]

36 minutes ago, kakapo said:

The decent argument is that worldwide there are only a small handful of schools and teachers that do something

 

Im not fully in agreement with that, but I understand thats been your experience

 

My experience is these things arent  as rare as you claim, however, getting access to them is very rare, and normally requires amongst other things

 

• A solid foundation  in internal work prior to even approaching a senior (not a teacher)
• The ability to pass several tests, some of which are internal, others of which are character
• The exchage of large sums of money initially (ive personally had figues in excess of 50k quoted to me)
• The will to waste a lot of time hitting dead ends

 

Should any of the above be missing from the equation, it wouldnt surprise me if you hit dead end after dead end