To Chi Or Not To Chi??

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

• A solid foundation  in internal work prior to even approaching a senior (not a teacher)
• The ability to pass several tests, some of which are internal, others of which are character
• The exchage of large sums of money initially (ive personally had figues in excess of 50k quoted to me)
• The will to waste a lot of time hitting dead ends

 

Should any of the above be missing from the equation, it wouldnt surprise me if you hit dead end after dead end

 

[Thrice Daily]

3 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

A teaching or lineage being old doesn't make it legit. 

 

There were plenty of delusional people back in ye olden times.

 

The advice I would give my younger self would be not to waste your time on a teacher or practice unless there is compelling evidence it does something,  personal testimony is not good enough.

 

I guess we are talking about something slightly different.

 

I think just about any practice done daily brings enormous benefits , health wellness etc 

It might not give supernatural abilities though. 
 

I don’t really seek such things these days, do you?

Genuine powers that are 100% outside of the realm of the imagination are beyond the scope of my understanding in Taoism proper to be honest.
 

I think it’s always worth leaving 1% for the possibility of it being self hallucinated unless something can absolutely be proven beyond belief to defy science and logic entirely, 

 

I’d love to hear what these legit teachers can do to warrant charging 50k plus genuinely.

 

have you got proven examples @Shadow_self that would be alright to talk about on here?

 

Edited September 25 by Thrice Daily

[kakapo]

3 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I guess we are talking about something slightly different.

 

I think just about any practice done daily brings enormous benefits , health wellness etc 

It might not give supernatural abilities though. 
 

I don’t really seek such things these days, do you?

Genuine powers that are 100% outside of the realm of the imagination are beyond the scope of my understanding in Taoism proper to be honest.
 

I think it’s always worth leaving 1% for the possibility of it being self hallucinated unless something can absolutely be proven beyond belief to defy science and logic entirely, 

 

I’d love to hear what these legit teachers can do to warrant charging 50k plus genuinely.

 

have you got prove examples @Shadow_self that isn’t would be sound to talk about on here?

 

When you become an adult you have abilities you did not have when you were a child.

 

Imagine when you grow up you can stay up as late as you want, and eat as much ice cream as you want.

While this is true, it is hardly the purpose of becoming an adult.

 

Training in an authentic and legitimate system, might lead to abilities but it isn't the point of the system.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I would be happy to have that conversation with you, but it will have to happen outside of this forum.

 

https://old.reddit.com/user/I_Am_Kakapo/

[email protected]

You can send me an email, or message me on reddit if you prefer.

 

 

Nice, sent you an email!

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

Training in an authentic and legitimate system, might lead to abilities but it isn't the point of the system.

Yes I agree with you 100%. Many people think that we like to chase abilities, but it’s more of the case that these abilities are just a sign that the system actually does something more than just light exercise. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

I’d love to hear what these legit teachers can do to warrant charging 50k plus genuinely.

 

have you got proven examples @Shadow_self that would be alright to talk about on here?

Here you go:

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

10 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Here you go:

 

 

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. 
 

If you could travel back in time would you like to learn to do that and become a working practitioner?

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

When you become an adult you have abilities you did not have when you were a child.

 

Imagine when you grow up you can stay up as late as you want, and eat as much ice cream as you want.

While this is true, it is hardly the purpose of becoming an adult.

 

Training in an authentic and legitimate system, might lead to abilities but it isn't the point of the system.

 

What is the point of the system? In your eyes?

 

I’d say Love and Grace but that might be unpopular here. 
 

It’s the same as we offer to our children through (love and Grace) and I’d argue it’s the point and directional flow of life itself, through us to our children and from what ever created us. (Might be an over simplification but I’m an optimist at heart)
 

The source of the Tao?
 

That’s one reason why I think Virtue is so important and is a natural Emanation of proper training, despite the teaching or system, but perhaps that is my natural inclination or acquisition over the years anyway.
 

It’s nice to be nice, I can’t abide the contrary, if genuinely mean spirited. 
 

But then again we could argue it’s all down to perspective 

 

One man’s food is another man’s poison. 
 

Is there something beyond the Tao or not beyond the Tao, that is the question. 
 

And one like a child to an adult, whose answer is dependant on faith alone …

Edited September 25 by Thrice Daily

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

25 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. 
 

If you could travel back in time would you like to learn to do that and become a working practitioner?

 

No, I’m currently learning now. A lot of this stuff only recently became accessible and affordable thanks to covid. Even if I wanted to learn back then I most likely wouldn’t have been able to anyway.

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I’d love to hear what these legit teachers can do to warrant charging 50k plus genuinely.

 

The money in that case was less a fee and more of a test of whether or not you were financially sound.

 

The ability to drop 50k on a whim would mean you'd be more than able to sustain yourself for long periods without work

 

Of course, that was only one of these things, there were others too.

 

You wouldnt just show up with a pile of money. In fact, you'd be lucky to get that far  

 

Quote

have you got proven examples @Shadow_self that would be alright to talk about on here?

 

 

Eh ive discussed some of these things before. Qi emission and things would be standard.

 

When you start to see people emitting light from their body it gets a bit weirder (this isnt the same person mentioned above, just an indication of some of the "weird")

 

When people start to move to being able to affect the level of shen and the causal body, you really do get into bizarre things  

 

In fact, just being in the presence of people like that would cause massive shifts in you.

 

Theres a few teachers who do something similar a step down at the Qi level (its a bit less dramatic)

 

They extend the Yin field outward to influence the students, set up a series of conditions in their own body, and then via the influence of the Yin field, they reorganize the internal workings of the students

 

6 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Yes I agree with you 100%. Many people think that we like to chase abilities, but it’s more of the case that these abilities are just a sign that the system actually does something more than just light exercise. 

 

There is no system of training that is authentic, in my opinion,  where some form of ability isnt developed, 

 

Moreover, it should be objectively verifiable

 

Obviously the easiest to inspect are things like Fajin, Fa Qi etc

 

Even the ones in buddhist systems. Ive heard people go on about gaining the Divine Eye etc.

 

If thats the case, one should have no problem seeing through a wall. This is actually a test used to check certain levels of vision being developed

 

Theres a similar one used to see if you are able to leave your body

 

Its all very scientific and objective to be totally honest.

Edited September 25 by Shadow_self

[kakapo]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

What is the point of the system? In your eyes?

 

I’d say Love and Grace but that might be unpopular here. 
 

It’s the same as we offer to our children through (love and Grace) and I’d argue it’s the point and directional flow of life itself, through us to our children and from what ever created us. (Might be an over simplification but I’m an optimist at heart)
 

The source of the Tao?
 

That’s one reason why I think Virtue is so important and is a natural Emanation of proper training, despite the teaching or system, but perhaps that is my natural inclination or acquisition over the years anyway.
 

It’s nice to be nice, I can’t abide the contrary, if genuinely mean spirited. 
 

But then again we could argue it’s all down to perspective 

 

One man’s food is another man’s poison. 
 

Is there something beyond the Tao or not beyond the Tao, that is the question. 
 

And one like a child to an adult, whose answer is dependant on faith alone …

 

The ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle spoke of the Telos, or ultimate purpose of something.

To Aristotle the Telos of an acorn was an oak tree.

Imagine the journey of an acorn, how profound and powerful it is.

An acorn falls to the earth, and embeds itself in the soil.

It pushes it's roots into the soil, and it's shoots into the sky.

It hungrily absorbs water, and minerals from the soil, and sunlight and air from the sky.

It is able to capture and direct the energy of the sunlight so that it does it's bidding.

What does it command this energy to do?

It commands it to grow.

It hungrily grows more roots, and more shoots, and more leaves, and a bigger trunk.

It drinks the sunlight, it drinks the air, it drinks the water, and consumes the minerals.

With exquisite precision and intelligence it directs the flows of energy, and grows, and grows and grows.

One day many years later it has become a mighty oak tree.

While some might read this and assume it is a metaphor for something, I mean it more in a literal sense.

The view is that humans are not born with an immortal soul, but rather an acorn.

For most humans their acorn never grows because it is never given sunlight, air, water, or soil.

The goal would be to grow your acorn into a mighty oak before your physical body dies.

That would be to fulfill your Telos, or ultimate purpose as a human being.

 

Edited September 25 by kakapo

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Even the ones in buddhist systems. Ive heard people go on about gaining the Divine Eye etc.

 

If thats the case, one should have no problem seeing through a wall. 

My teachers teacher claimed that one ( buddhist practice). Never met him though. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

My teachers teacher claimed that one ( buddhist practice). Never met him though. 

 

Pretty standard development  and an important skill in most schools to be honest.

 

There are levels to this kind of ability

 

Depending on how developed one is you would generally get things like the below (in no specific order)

 

 

• The ability to see into the internal space, and to view the channel system (of yourself and others)
• The ability to see through matter
• To be able to see into the other realms
• To be able to see ghosts etc, and  things like auras
• At very high levels, one could  start to see into the mental  realm and even further back, the causal.

 

The  very last one would be where someone could probably tell you when you are going to pass from this life just by having a good look at you. This is rarer than the rest though

 

Nonetheless, important to realise something.

 

As far as "insight" goes. If someone claiming such a thing dont have these developments, then they do not have as much "insight" as they might  like to think to be perfectly honest

[Forestgreen]

Seing through a wall (the skill claimed) would have been fun in high school, can't think of a use for it now really. 

[Shadow_self]

9 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Seing through a wall (the skill claimed) would have been fun in high school, can't think of a use for it now really. 

 

Thats just to see if the ability is developed to a certain extent really,

 

Seeing through matter would be more useful for other purposes. One would be healing and diagnostics.

 

The other  (more important and practice related) would be related to perception  of finer and finer layers of reality  

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The other  (more important and practice related) would be related to perception  of finer and finer layers of reality 

As far as I can tell, one can percieve the finer levels of reality without being able to see through a wall. 

[Shadow_self]

39 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

As far as I can tell, one can percieve the finer levels of reality without being able to see through a wall. 

 

Stable  visual perception of the immaterial without any  drastic change in  material vision?  It would be against how im taught

 

If it is stable transformation then my understanding is that the transformation will take place internally and externally

 

An experience of? Yes of course. That would be expected, and in many cases  it may be an experience that conciousness might begin to reorient itself based upon

 

One of the reasons for the objective testing (whatever the test is) is to prove this isnt something merely imagined. One can say they have developed the divine eye, but like I mentioned, if thats true, seeing through a wall would be a simple task

 

But peception isnt limited to the visual sense either as you know. So id clear up that I'm talking about the visual gate here

 

[Forestgreen]

7 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Stable  visual perception of the immaterial without any  drastic change in  material vision?  It would be against how im taught

 

Didn't say visual perception. 

My tradition specifically bypass the five senses to get to the immaterial, per instructions in the classics. 

 

 

[centertime]

On 2024. 09. 19. at 4:02 PM, Master Logray said:

 

 

Some of the things must start young.  There is a lot of differences if you start at 15 comparing with 35, or 55.  Those started mid-life can never attain a very good level.  I have seen Yoga, Taichi, other martial arts people have this problem.  Those late starter could have spent significant time, received good teachings and fully dedicated but just seem not there whatever.   

 

 

Not sure what is "very good level" for you (feel free to define it in detail) but I can say this... I suffered much less because of these practices and I started at late 40th. And when you suffer less, everybody can understand this how much it can mean. This is an important point.

Not talking about fancy paranormal abilities, exceptional physical strength, just less suffering, better days, just better experiences, higher quality life lasting for days. (depending on the frequency of practices). 
 

Edited September 26 by centertime

[centertime]

On 2024. 09. 19. at 9:19 AM, Thrice Daily said:

If you had a time machine and you could travel back to before you started Taoist practices.

 

And met face to face with your younger self…

 

What advice would you give the fledgling you?

 

What wisdom/insights would you share? If any.

Everybody knows something, nobody knows everything. Do not trust people blindly.. Try  to stay calm in face of adversity. try to keep together, stay strong, stay whole. 

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Didn't say visual perception. 

My tradition specifically bypass the five senses to get to the immaterial, per instructions in the classics. 

 

I dont think any tradtion bypasses the senses,  but they do reverse them

 

The manifestations a rent something thats aimed for, its just a sign that the practice is working as it should, thats all. (Im getting tired of repeating this)

 

In Daoism these things start happening around the stage of "entering the white room" where the spirits of the five senses reverse and reconverge as one

 

The point at which they do so is clearly marked on the Xiuzhen Tu

 

This is a sign you've touched upon the congenital

 

19 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

My teachers teacher claimed that one ( buddhist practice). Never met him though. 

 

Its unsurprising to me that what your teachers teacher claimed and what I am saying is a product of correct practice seem to line up

[centertime]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I dont think any tradtion bypasses the senses,  but they do reverse them

 

The manifestations a rent something thats aimed for, its just a sign that the practice is working as it should, thats all. (Im getting tired of repeating this)

 

In Daoism these things start happening around the stage of "entering the white room" where the spirits of the five senses reverse and reconverge as one

 

The point at which they do so is clearly marked on the Xiuzhen Tu

 

This is a sign you've touched upon the congenital

 

 

Its unsurprising to me that what your teachers teacher claimed and what I am saying is a product of correct practice seem to line up

of "entering the white room" ? can you tell me more about it?

[Shadow_self]

19 minutes ago, centertime said:

of "entering the white room" ? can you tell me more about it?

 

Id prefer not to get into it  in too much depth to be perfectly honest

 

Tell me what it is you'd like to know, ill let you know if its something I can discuss

[centertime]

51 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Id prefer not to get into it  in too much depth to be perfectly honest

 

Tell me what it is you'd like to know, ill let you know if its something I can discuss

do you have practical experience in the matter? what is the pragmatical significance of that?

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, centertime said:

 just less suffering, better days, just better experiences, higher quality life lasting for days. (depending on the frequency of practices). 
 

 

Those require agility, flexibility, better start young.  It means most martial arts internal or external, gymnastics, Yoga....    Mind training like meditation (e.g. less suffering), can be started any time, middle or even old age.   Philosophy/knowledge, age is not an issue.  Qigong, those popular ones are mostly not physically taxing.  But there are just too many types so it is hard to say.