To Chi Or Not To Chi??

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Its unsurprising to me that what your teachers teacher claimed and what I am saying is a product of correct practice seem to line up

My teachers teacher, and my teacher, had/has as a main goal to become efficient external qi healers. Different goal than mine, slightly different tweak in the practice. 

[forestofclarity]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:00 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

• A solid foundation  in internal work prior to even approaching a senior (not a teacher)
• The ability to pass several tests, some of which are internal, others of which are character
• The exchage of large sums of money initially (ive personally had figues in excess of 50k quoted to me)
• The will to waste a lot of time hitting dead ends

 

There is a pattern on this forum where some one says they've discovered the true path, most or all other paths are bunk. It often requires an initial investment, it is only open the select few, and promises to unlock various spiritual powers. There is typically some secret or series of secrets that this person or organization possesses that has been lost to the public. Some have gone further, claiming that all this would be proven in the upcoming years scientifically. 

 

An interesting point of comparison: if you replace internal work with financial knowledge, and superpower or mundane siddhi with wealth, it is almost exactly the same formula as American financial scams. It has also been adopted to spiritual schemes--- there was one well-known scam online following this almost exactly from a person pretending to be "the real" Jed McKenna. 

 

I would also point out that some one sitting on $50,000 is either an investment expert like Warren Buffet, extremely wealthy, and/or hasn't realized the value of proper investment, IMO. A lot of people who have paid these do not strike me as financially savvy individuals. 

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I dont think any tradtion bypasses the senses,  but they do reverse them

Quite a few traditions interpret reversal of the senses as an inward focus, with the senses. 

In Beth' s tradition, she talks about experience the taste of the body. 

 

This can be bypassed,  but I'm certain that method is not the most common.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

42 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

There is a pattern on this forum where some one says they've discovered the true path, most or all other paths are bunk. It often requires an initial investment, it is only open the select few, and promises to unlock various spiritual powers. There is typically some secret or series of secrets that this person or organization possesses that has been lost to the public. Some have gone further, claiming that all this would be proven in the upcoming years scientifically. 

 

An interesting point of comparison: if you replace internal work with financial knowledge, and superpower or mundane siddhi with wealth, it is almost exactly the same formula as American financial scams. It has also been adopted to spiritual schemes--- there was one well-known scam online following this almost exactly from a person pretending to be "the real" Jed McKenna. 

 

I would also point out that some one sitting on $50,000 is either an investment expert like Warren Buffet, extremely wealthy, and/or hasn't realized the value of proper investment, IMO. A lot of people who have paid these do not strike me as financially savvy individuals. 

I don’t think anyone here is claiming their path or teacher is the only real one

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

My teachers teacher, and my teacher, had/has as a main goal to become efficient external qi healers. Different goal than mine, slightly different tweak in the practice. 

 

I dont think what I am talking about has anything to do with healing  specifically. Its just useful for it

 

Its related to contacting Congenital Shen.

 

The reunification of the fragmented spirits begins to alter the sense faculties bidirectionally

 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Quite a few traditions interpret reversal of the senses as an inward focus, with the senses. 

In Beth' s tradition, she talks about experience the taste of the body. 

 

This can be bypassed,  but I'm certain that method is not the most common.

 

Inward focus with the senses is not what I was talking about specifically. I was talking about energetic reversal, of which inward focus is simply a pre-requisite 

 

Regards Jhannic traditions (As per Beth), the best explanation ive seen of it is here

 

 

 

As mentioned above, you generally work where your conciousness resides.

 

This, in our current time is more true than ever, given the macrocosmic forces acting upon the distance between form and formlessness

 

I would not be easily convinced that there is a method to bypass withdrawl and reversal of the senses (be it perceptual as you mentioned about Beth, or energetically as I was discussing)

 

As far as I know, this is a non negotiable in terms of contacting congenital spirit, and opening the mysterious pass (which is one of the reason siddhi begin to arise)

 

Id be open to hearing what you have to say about how one could go about that, if you'd care to get into it

 

But every tradition I know of requires withdrawl  and what freeform mentioned was practically verbatim how its been explained to me by three different teachers

[Thrice Daily]

Agreed, better starting young for the vigorous practices.

 

I’m 42 now and would like to have trained harder when younger but I at least did a bit.

 

Getting a nice strong base in Karate younger I think would have been a nice move.

 

Yeah good advice I think to younger self, concentrate more on the physical while you are young, and leave the cerebral stuff for later in life.

 

Make yourself strong first and go on the adventure of life, no need to sit in your cave just yet. Not for too long anyway. 
 

Training in China also would have been the way to go for me. I booked into a kungfu school in Wudang for three years. And literally the money I had ready for it fell through. I was 27 yr old at the time with a few years experience in qigong so it would have been good.

 

For traditional kungfu training though 27 yr old was literally the oldest they would take students.

 

Yeah if I could go back I reckon I’d have told myself to just get a one way ticket to Wudang and see what happens. Life’s too short not to take chances. 
 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

There is a pattern on this forum where some one says they've discovered the true path, most or all other paths are bunk. It often requires an initial investment, it is only open the select few, and promises to unlock various spiritual powers. There is typically some secret or series of secrets that this person or organization possesses that has been lost to the public. Some have gone further, claiming that all this would be proven in the upcoming years scientifically. 

 

An interesting point of comparison: if you replace internal work with financial knowledge, and superpower or mundane siddhi with wealth, it is almost exactly the same formula as American financial scams. It has also been adopted to spiritual schemes--- there was one well-known scam online following this almost exactly from a person pretending to be "the real" Jed McKenna. 

 

I would also point out that some one sitting on $50,000 is either an investment expert like Warren Buffet, extremely wealthy, and/or hasn't realized the value of proper investment, IMO. A lot of people who have paid these do not strike me as financially savvy individuals. 

 

Theres plenty of scams, sure. You could say I was lucky, I had advice from people who'd already been down the road of dead ends

 

However, my main teacher teaches me for free. I choose to give whatever I can, whenever.

 

Since I left my career, not 1 penny has left my pocket, and nothing has changed

 

The other two , charges me about the cost of a  decent resturant meal for 1 per month (each)

 

There are plenty of secrets, still, though none of them cost me any great degree of money to learn.

 

They did however, take a lot of effort to come to an experiential understanding of them, and to be able to verifiy their accuracy in a controlled, objective manner to myself (and  a few select others) 

 

That being said - Id gladly have parted with 50k to have learned some of the things ive learned over the years (though I didnt have to).

 

That list was a quick guide of specific things that keep coming up over and over again in my own experience

 

And If im really being honest

 

Quote

• The ability to pass several tests, some of which are internal, others of which are character

 

 

This is where the vast majority are culled, because not every teacher wants money, but almost every teacher ive come across expects this

[Thrice Daily]

18 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I dont think what I am talking about has anything to do with healing  specifically. Its just useful for it

 

Its related to contacting Congenital Shen.

 

The reunification of the fragmented spirits begins to alter the sense faculties bidirectionally

 

 

Inward focus with the senses is not what I was talking about specifically. I was talking about energetic reversal, of which inward focus is simply a pre-requisite 

 

Regards Jhannic traditions (As per Beth), the best explanation ive seen of it is here

 

 

 

As mentioned above, you generally work where your conciousness resides.

 

This, in our current time is more true than ever, given the macrocosmic forces acting upon the distance between form and formlessness

 

I would not be easily convinced that there is a method to bypass withdrawl and reversal of the senses (be it perceptual as you mentioned about Beth, or energetically as I was discussing)

 

As far as I know, this is a non negotiable in terms of contacting congenital spirit, and opening the mysterious pass (which is one of the reason siddhi begin to arise)

 

Id be open to hearing what you have to say about how one could go about that, if you'd care to get into it

 

But every tradition I know of requires withdrawl  and what freeform mentioned was practically verbatim how its been explained to me by three different teachers

Nice 👍 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

I don’t think anyone here is claiming their path or teacher is the only real one

 

Some one once posted here that they went to China and asked a master for a high level practice. The person was given the Amitabha mantra and told to repeat it. The poster, IIRC, was very excited about the practice. Then some one stepped in and "kindly" informed the poster that they were given a non-practice because they weren't good enough or special enough to warrant an high level practice. This is what I would call a small minded or Hinayana view. 

 

Compare to say, Master Xu Yun, who would give the Pureland practice out to many. When John Blofeld questioned him as to why he would give such an "inferior" practice as opposed to Zen, he says:

 

Quote

“But when Farmer Wang comes to me for teaching, am I to speak to him of his Original Self or of Reality and so on? What do such terms mean to him? Morning and evening, he repeats the sacred name, concentrating on it until he grows oblivious of all else. In time, after a month, a year, a decade, a lifetime or several lifetimes, he achieves such a state of perfect concentration that duality is transcended and he, too, comes face to face with Reality. He calls the power by which he hopes to achieve this Amida; you call it Zen; I may call it Original Mind. What is the difference? The power he thought was outside himself was inside all the time.”

 

Deeply struck by this argument and anxious, perhaps, to display my acquaintance with the Zen way of putting things, I exclaimed:

 

“I see, I see. Bodhidharma entered the shrine-room from the sitting-room. Farmer Wang entered it through the kitchen, but they both arrived at the same place. I see.”

 

“No,” answered the Zen Master, “you do not see. They didn’t arrive at any place. They just discovered that there is no place for them to reach.”

 

This is a Mahayana view in my mind. Open to all people in all moments. 

 

Full story here: https://thebamboosea.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/a-conversation-with-hsu-yun-john-blofeld/

 

38 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

This is where the vast majority are culled, because not every teacher wants money, but almost every teacher ive come across expects this

 

Not to say this isn't your experience, or that your experience isn't valid, but what is objective? Some people report that they've seen Zen Master Rama, aka Frederick Lenz, emit light and fly through the air. And most "tests" don't usually involve a skilled illusionist (see below). 

 

But the larger issue is this: given that the path you're talking about is only open to the "gifted few," how does this discussion help the vast majority of people that do not fit that definition? 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

I’d argue it helps people get closer to the deeper levels of the practice , eventually.

 

The collective consciousness I believe has tipping points , as well as individuals minds.

 

Revealing deeper levels of truth about existence, creates a long term benefit for humanity. 

That’s what I believe anyway, the complex and the simple, both ends of the spectrum are beneficial to share about.

[Shadow_self]

37 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Not to say this isn't your experience, or that your experience isn't valid, but what is objective?

 

If you referring to how I objectively verified my practice?  Lets take Qi building.

 

I had some developments that I wanted to see if they were imaginary or not. My teachers were away

 

So I took a few people, blinded them, made sure they didnt speak to each other and then attempted some stuff in a controlled setting.

 

I even counterbalanced it to improve the validity.  Results shocked me just as much as them. 

 

Hopefully that answer your question, because thats all im willing to detail of the matter

 

Quote

Some people report that they've seen Zen Master Rama, aka Frederick Lenz, emit light and fly through the air. And most "tests" don't usually involve a skilled illusionist (see below). 

 

I  would never have to take my teachers words for it

 

I was able to replicate certain phenomena myself, without their presence

 

Quote

But the larger issue is this: given that the path you're talking about is only open to the "gifted few," how does this discussion help the vast majority of people that do not fit that definition? 

 

Where did I mention the word gifted?

[forestofclarity]

 

14 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

If you referring to how I objectively verified my practice? 

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound objective at all. Your test is based on subjective feelings of your subjects. There are plenty of questions about how the test was conducted, whether the subjects were primed or led to a certain conclusion, the impact of other factors such as body heat, sound, etc. Again, I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm just saying this is not the type of "objective" evidence that is often demanded. It may be very convincing for you, but is unlikely to persuade others (unless they know and trust you). 

 

A more objective demonstration might be: some one with a tumor goes to a healer. Healer performs healing. The tumor vanishes. Western doctors are shocked. Not conclusive, but not relying on subjective perceptions either. The tumor is there or it isn't. 

 

Personally, I'm glad that people are seeing results on their spiritual path and this seems to be the case here. But if the implication is that if some one is decreasing their suffering and increasing their compassion but can't emit qi electric out of their fingers is somehow deficient seems a bit Hinayana to me. Similarly, if some one can emit qi out of their fingers, but doesn't exhibit the higher virtues of benevolence, etc. I don't know what qi emission proves. 

 

But that's just my opinion. 

 

20 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Where did I mention the word gifted?

 

In your pasted quote, it states:

 

Quote

 

The more Ming-dominant lines are very dangerous, and only available to the gifted few - and only when given the very secretive methods and overseen by a gifted teacher...

 

Similarly the Jhannic Xing-dominant traditions are open to the very gifted who have both strong Qi and natural capability of deep absorption - and they also require complete isolation and full-time retreat (effectively for life). The ones who do well are generally already 'stream enterers' from past lives.

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

There is a lot of talk about 'steam entering in books written by Vippasana monks. I remember reading while working at the centre in England.

 

They have a very interesting library of books with monks own accounts. Very gifted and in terms of their circumstances, also blessed with lives that made things easy for them to be full time in  meditation. 

 

@Shadow_self have you read any books from these monks accounts from the Burmese tradition ?

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound objective at all. Your test is based on subjective feelings of your subjects. There are plenty of questions about how the test was conducted, whether the subjects were primed or led to a certain conclusion, the impact of other factors such as body heat, sound, etc. Again, I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm just saying this is not the type of "objective" evidence that is often demanded. It may be very convincing for you, but is unlikely to persuade others (unless they know and trust you). 

 

A more objective demonstration might be: some one with a tumor goes to a healer. Healer performs healing. The tumor vanishes. Western doctors are shocked. Not conclusive, but not relying on subjective perceptions either. The tumor is there or it isn't. 

 

There was nothing subjective about it. The most pronounced thing I did was about as subjective as a punch in the back of the head

 

Its a well known skill in neigong schools. At least one other person I know on this board has a different lineage, a buddhist one that also develops this

 

You may wish to believe otherwise, and thats fine. I really dont mind

 

Quote

Personally, I'm glad that people are seeing results on their spiritual path and this seems to be the case here. But if the implication is that if some one is decreasing their suffering and increasing their compassion but can't emit qi electric out of their fingers is somehow deficient seems a bit Hinayana to me. Similarly, if some one can emit qi out of their fingers, but doesn't exhibit the higher virtues of benevolence, etc. I don't know what qi emission proves. 

 

Electric Qi is not the point at all. A deplorable human can do that

 

You're missing the point here

 

Quote

In your pasted quote, it states:

 

Those were @freeform words, and I concur

 

Success in the Ming and Xing dominant lines are outside the reach of all but the gifted

 

The Ming dominant lines are too dangerous.  A mistake could kill you at the worst. It could also corrupt your nature beyond belief. Ive seen this happen personally and know one now deceased teacher who fell victim to it. 

 

The Xing dominant lines are more complex. The reason has to do with the epoch of time, and the size of the chasm between form and formless. Basically its beyond the reach of all but the karmically inclined.  The same reason that all but a few are olympic level athletes

 

Curiously, you'll notice no such comment was made about the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming together

 

You know, the one freeform kept recommending, The one I too keep recommending

 

This is what closes the width of the chasm, and builds the bridge between form and formless at the same time, making it the best chance anyone has at real success

[Thrice Daily]

@Shadow_self … What is the most basic Ming - Xing practice you would introduce to your younger self if you could travel back to meet with him…

 

as a safe introduction to the art of cultivation.

 

What would you say if you could be his only teacher?

 

for an introductory daily practice, that would be safe and productive 

 

and even though basic and foundational, it would be a sound practice for life to cultivate his Ming and Xing   

Edited September 26 by Thrice Daily

[Lukks]

the name of this thread is wrong, so much valuable information here I tought people were still talking about the time travel thing, glad I came to take a look again

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

@Shadow_self … What is the most basic Ming - Xing practice you would introduce to your younger self if you could travel back to meet with him…

 

as a safe introduction to the art of cultivation.

 

What would you say if you could be his only teacher?

 

for an introductory daily practice, that would be safe and productive 

 

and even though basic and foundational, it would be a sound practice for life to cultivate his Ming and Xing   

 

My younger self wouldnt be interested in all this to be perfectly honest. Xing and Ming and Niegong. Hardly

 

Id have tried to convince myself to take up Bagua, as it has martial application, but there is also a Neigong and energetic component, and it can take one well into the Yijinjing process with the right extra ingredients

[Lukks]

On 25/09/2024 at 2:59 PM, Shadow_self said:

• The ability to see into the internal space, and to view the channel system (of yourself and others)
• The ability to see through matter
• To be able to see into the other realms
• To be able to see ghosts etc, and  things like auras
• At very high levels, one could  start to see into the mental  realm and even further back, the causal.

 

On 25/09/2024 at 5:22 PM, Shadow_self said:

One of the reasons for the objective testing (whatever the test is) is to prove this isnt something merely imagined. One can say they have developed the divine eye, but like I mentioned, if thats true, seeing through a wall would be a simple task

 

So in other words this level of development is the same as high level cairvoyance or am I mixing things?

 

I know a clairvoyant guy who can do distant healing, no, it's not Chunyi Lin and it's from vajrayana buddhism but both seem to agree in the clairvoyance thing, it's also said that when you develop your clairvoyance you can do distant healing. I also read about this in a book  so the informations match

 

I'll try to find more info on xing and ming cultivation I think there's a thread about it somewhere haha

 

thanks for the knowledge

[Thrice Daily]

20 hours ago, Lukks said:

the name of this thread is wrong, so much valuable information here I tought people were still talking about the time travel thing, glad I came to take a look again

To Chi or not to Chi that is the question?? 
 

Sometimes you go on holiday but you get something deeper than a suntan…

[Mark Foote]

On 9/25/2024 at 8:26 AM, Forestgreen said:

On 9/25/2024 at 4:55 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

Even the ones in buddhist systems. I've heard people go on about gaining the Divine Eye etc.

 

If that's the case, one should have no problem seeing through a wall. 
 

 

 

A different skill involving the wall:
 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. …When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don’t take the sitting posture!

 

(“Aspects of Sitting Meditation”, “Shikantaza”; Kobun Chino Otogawa;
http://www.jikoji.org/intro-aspects/)
 

My explanation:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses. 
 

 

"People who are moving around outside", on the other side of the wall, can affect the placement of awareness in the body, even if their presence doesn't register in the senses directly.  The location of awareness can become the sole source of the activity of the body--habit and volition in inhalation and exhalation can cease, yet the people moving around outside are a part of the activity of the body.

 

 

 

Edited September 27 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 9/25/2024 at 8:40 PM, Forestgreen said:

Didn't say visual perception. 

My tradition specifically bypass the five senses to get to the immaterial, per instructions in the classics. 

 

Vipassana?

 

[Lukks]

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

To Chi or not to Chi that is the question?? 
 

Sometimes you go on holiday but you get something deeper than a suntan…

 

yep that's what I meant, most of the threads here have good knowledge inside them but if you look only at the title it won't catch your attention

 

BUT I wasn't criticizing the title of your post lol, I just want to make this clear

 

In example, these last few days I was rereading a post I made about Zhan Zhuang, if you look at my title you would think that it was only about Zhan Zhuang, but if you look inside you would know that it was more than that, actually that post is iconic because we had:

Talks about grounding, yin chi and yang chi, then I probably had a chi deviation and asked for help, and while I was thinking I was gonna die some dudes turned that post into a mopai discussion, then when it come back to the topic I was feeling better but then we had another discussion about spontaneous movements and chinese without translation hahahah good old times(2 years ago) 

[Thrice Daily]

Nice, it’s good to have you on the thread. I’ll check yours out when I get a minute.

 

Yeah I know what your saying about the variety within threads. And this one. 
 

The question is more of a pattern interior really to see what people might “really” think about the key importance of their practices. I wanted to see if I could get a shortcut to the real kernels. 
 

There are some great posts on here. Really fantastic. I’ve been having a click around and some of the advice is stunningly helpful. 
 

Hopefully more people jump on this thread and kick start it back up for more conversation. I’d love to see some of the old boys like @joeblast and @SonOfTheGods jump on and say hello 👋 

Edited September 27 by Thrice Daily

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

@SonOfTheGods 

Oh no no no, I don’t think you do

[Nungali]

I thought he  ..... went to  'the great forum in the sky' ..... the ' Happy (student ) Hunting Ground ' .