Where are the High Level Martial Artists/Fighters at?

[Paradoxal]

18 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 

If there were truly a "most effective martial art", it would most certainly not be boxing.

 

Boxing is a sport, not a martial art!

 

Even if we were to consider it a martial art, the use of gloves in practice makes it ineffective in actual combat because it lacks the conditioning required for bareknuckle use. Its footwork is specialized under the assumption of no kicks and no grappling, and is thus very ungrounded. Likewise, it not only lacks kicks and grappling, which are essential parts of any fighting system, it also lacks trained defenses against them, and against weapons. 

 

It can be useful as a training tool for understanding close range fighting, and it can be very fun, but it is not self-defense oriented on its own.

 

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space.

I dunno what you've been taught, but the WC I've learned includes kicks, grappling, and groundwork. It is certainly not just defensive or stationary, and includes everything Chen style taiji has.

 

Historically, WC was made for the express purpose of raising soldiers with the same skills as Chen style in 1/3 the time, for the goal of killing Chen style practitioners on the battlefield. 

 

Yes, there are dumbasses claiming to be "masters" while never pressure testing themselves or doing basic conditioning, but they are simply delusional at best and scam artists at worst, and certainly do not have even a rudimentary understanding of martial arts. 

[Thrice Daily]

12 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't see how that could work. They are totally different in practice. Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space. Taiji is moving around.

It’s because you haven’t trained it in I think. It’s very evident I think. 
 

Wing Chun is also moving around. The bending of the knees in is a characteristic that you could pay attention to. Especially as you like physics , demonstrated in your posts. 
 

the triangle V like stance. Allows connection to the earth that is superior to any other stance in terms of absorbing force through joints and into the ground, also bringing it back up , quickest and most accurately (efficient) I could be wrong but I think this is scientifically correct. So In that regard we could say it is stationary, (as a moment is more like a photograph and not a video i) think this is how your mind is working it as your body has no experience of it ,,, yet…

 

no there is lots of moving legs in Wing Chun

 

So the movement you practice in Taiji, if you were able to switch mid practice to wing Chun principles , the limbs would retract and bend more.

 

your form would have a smaller frame and contract (possibly a move or two would not translate) but I bet you most would… if it truly pertains to usefulness as a martial art and not only health practices 

Edited November 17 by Thrice Daily

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Historically, WC was made for the express purpose of raising soldiers with the same skills as Chen style in 1/3 the time, for the goal of killing Chen style practitioners on the battlefield. 

 

Yes, there are dumbasses claiming to be "masters" while never pressure testing themselves or doing basic conditioning, but they are simply delusional at best and scam artists at worst, and certainly do not have even a rudimentary understanding of martial arts. 

 

I don't believe that.  Both Chen Style and WC (esp WC) are not battlefield combat skills, but personal protection skills.   Those northern martial arts are.  But the 1/3 training speed is true.   The major weakness of Taichi is the much longer training time.   Although it is considered the most sophisticated martial arts, but it takes ages to train and be proficient.   WC could be quite useful after 6 months.  Taichi needs few years.   While WC can be trained solo for most of the time, Taichi needs quite a few comparable opponents in simple skill like push hand, not to mention more realistic training.    Taichi is very inefficient in learning. 

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think technically wing chunners could learn a lot from Taiji players. 

And Taiji players could learn a lot about efficiency from a more compact point of view. 

 

Against mma though, like in the video, if the mma opponent is bigger , heavier and stronger with better cardio, he doesnt need much skill to beat anyone much smaller than him whatever the supposed level is... The trad martial artist should probably just crush his foot with a good stamp. As eye gauging, throat and soft parts are off limits I guess the foot would be the next logocal port of attack.

 

The amount of times   ( in karate  practice ) I have simply  stepped forward , onto the others foot , and caused . well, chaos .

 

This is due to the weird way modern karate works , one steps forward to attack, the other steps back and blocks , if you step on their lead foot ( well, not all of them but a lot of them )   and they cant step back, it seems to disrupt their technique and 'skill'  ...  now you are 'in their face ' and a lot of them are not used to that .

 

regarding the 'foot stomp ', I saw a very slight Vietnamese  guy  down a huge abusing racist bully with that .   Big drunk guy grabbed him, started yelling racist abuse , the  Viet guy ( seemed to, from what I could see )  put the  front corner of his shoe heel into the guys shin, ran it down the inside to the top of his foot and gave it a little twist . Bully went down instantly in a heap , Viet guy stepped over him and kept walking away .  ... wow !

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't see how that could work. They are totally different in practice. Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space. Taiji is moving around.

 

The wing chung practitioner I had a go with moved around pretty good !  She slugged me one on the point of the chin as well ! 

[Paradoxal]

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Both Chen Style and WC (esp WC) are not battlefield combat skills, but personal protection skills.

Again, I cannot speak for all WC lineages, but the stuff I've been shown adapts to armored melee use quite well; I've actually had the pleasure to fight in full lamellar armor before, as well as in melee-scale mock battles. The WC stuff worked wonders there, and if you examine things from a strategic perspective, even the strategy used at individual levels scales to large army levels quite seamlessly. 

Plus, at the advanced level, WC actually has an entire arsenal of stuff dedicated to killing opponents, though this is rightly not shown publicly very often. If we're talking about it being just "personal defense," this would certainly not be the case.

 

That said, I can certainly see how it could be taught wrong and thus be lacking such uses; if the athletic conditioning or the martial (as in, for your bones, for your tendons, etc.) conditioning were left out, then it would not only be useless on the battlefield but also for self defense. I have seen it taught without this stuff and frankly, I find such teaching to be very malicious. 

 

Another possible way it could be lacking is if you are not taught the actual strategic side of things, and instead take a very materialistic look at the art. What is shown as a "pak sao" should be thought of as a concept, but many people mistake it to be a very specific movement. Such people begin to teach, and thus entire lineages lose out on a large part WC.

 

A similar thing has happened for modern karate, where many people learn stuff like "upper block" or "lower block" and are led to miss out on the fact that literally none of the movements in karate are just for "blocking." It's a shame, but on the bright side, there are still instructors in both WC and karate out there that actually know and teach the deeper parts of the arts.

Edited November 18 by Paradoxal

[Gerard]

For fighting, I'd personally choose Muay Thai over anything else.
 

1. Very effective

2. No frills

3. It's the foundation of MMA

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Again, I cannot speak for all WC lineages, but the stuff I've been shown adapts to armored melee use quite well; I've actually had the pleasure to fight in full lamellar armor before, as well as in melee-scale mock battles.

That must have been awesome!

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

The WC stuff worked wonders there, and if you examine things from a strategic perspective, even the strategy used at individual levels scales to large army levels quite seamlessly. 

Would would have been some of your main take-aways from this experience, anything unexpected?

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Plus, at the advanced level, WC actually has an entire arsenal of stuff dedicated to killing opponents, though this is rightly not shown publicly very often. If we're talking about it being just "personal defense," this would certainly not be the case.

From what I understand the same is true with Chen Style, some brutal and quite unbelievable potentialities.

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

That said, I can certainly see how it could be taught wrong and thus be lacking such uses; if the athletic conditioning or the martial (as in, for your bones, for your tendons, etc.) conditioning were left out, then it would not only be useless on the battlefield but also for self defense. I have seen it taught without this stuff and frankly, I find such teaching to be very malicious. 

Totally agree with you there. Pak Sau though I think, great duty should be taught when teaching it properly and demonstrating it on a student.....

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Another possible way it could be lacking is if you are not taught the actual strategic side of things, and instead take a very materialistic look at the art. What is shown as a "pak sao" should be thought of as a concept, but many people mistake it to be a very specific movement. Such people begin to teach, and thus entire lineages lose out on a large part WC.

Fantastic, you sound like an interesting character, I'd love to read your notes if you make any, sounds like you have some real introspection

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

A similar thing has happened for modern karate, where many people learn stuff like "upper block" or "lower block" and are led to miss out on the fact that literally none of the movements in karate are just for "blocking." It's a shame, but on the bright side, there are still instructors in both WC and karate out there that actually know and teach the deeper parts of the arts.

hmmm.

[Thrice Daily]

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

The amount of times   ( in karate  practice ) I have simply  stepped forward , onto the others foot , and caused . well, chaos .

It's effective isn't it  

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

This is due to the weird way modern karate works , one steps forward to attack, the other steps back and blocks , if you step on their lead foot ( well, not all of them but a lot of them )   and they cant step back, it seems to disrupt their technique and 'skill'  ...  now you are 'in their face ' and a lot of them are not used to that .

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

regarding the 'foot stomp ', I saw a very slight Vietnamese  guy  down a huge abusing racist bully with that .   Big drunk guy grabbed him, started yelling racist abuse , the  Viet guy ( seemed to, from what I could see )  put the  front corner of his shoe heel into the guys shin, ran it down the inside to the top of his foot and gave it a little twist . Bully went down instantly in a heap , Viet guy stepped over him and kept walking away .  ... wow !

 

[Paradoxal]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Would would have been some of your main take-aways from this experience, anything unexpected?

Quote

First, on an individual scale, mental flexibility is needed. You need to be willing to run and fight on a melee battlefield, which would be unthinkable if you were stuck in the 1v1 dojo mindset. You also need to have the ability to kill (or in my case, "kill") an armored opponent in less than 2 seconds without yourself going to ground, as you probably won't have more than that before the lines push you out of position. This means adapting the blocks, strikes, and grapples to be used while moving, instead of slowly and strategically (but you still want to apply strategy!).

 

You need to understand, not memorize the concepts; if you simply memorize WC's concepts, using them at scale would be very difficult, if not impossible. For instance, taking the opponent's balance: in small scale combat, this seems obvious, but how would you apply it to large scale combat? Certainly not by yanking their arm to throw their balance off! This can instead be done through positioning of your troops in key places that cut the enemy's troops maneuverability, as an example. Funnily enough, though, you can also "yank" the enemy troops to throw them off balance through baiting them into weak positions. Both of these cases can apply to single combat through your own positioning and through physically yanking (and psychologically baiting) the opponent, but when understood properly, the concepts themselves can be applied everywhere in life.

 

Think of it like how Sun Tzu's Art of War is currently used in the business world. 

 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

From what I understand the same is true with Chen Style, some brutal and quite unbelievable potentialities.

Quote

Again, I was taught that WC was specifically made to include *EVERYTHING* Chen style has, including the energetic and lethal stuff. It was pieced together from every system in the Shaolin temple at the time, using only the most efficient methods from each one, but that doesn't mean it didn't manage to achieve completion of all of them. 

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'd love to read your notes if you make any

Unfortunately, I can't make those public as I don't have permission from my teachers, and those contain some stuff that shouldn't be released publicly. 

 

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

Quote

This isn't a legend, but actual truth. Karate traces much of its origins to Southern Shaolin, most specifically the systems of White Crane and "Monk Boxing", though some Tiger and Mantis can be seen in particular styles of karate as well. 

 

If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out Jesse Enkamp's videos on the stuff. He does his research very thoroughly and gives sources for much of his findings.

 

I'll link some good ones below:

 

(I got the chance to train in this dojo with Hokama sensei myself, and can confirm that he is insanely knowledgeable about the history of martial arts! If you ever have the chance, please do check out his museum!)

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:12 AM, Thrice Daily said:

It's effective isn't it  

Did you ever hear about the legend that Karate was developed from Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, I've heard the stepping in forms are almost identical.

 

 

?   Not only have I heard about it  , I believe I have discussed it , here on DBs , with you .

 

Now, is my 70 yo memory imagining things .... or is the 'young fellah' loosing the plot ?

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2024 at 9:17 AM, Paradoxal said:

First, on an individual scale, mental flexibility is needed. You need to be willing to run and fight on a melee battlefield, which would be unthinkable if you were stuck in the 1v1 dojo mindset. You also need to have the ability to kill (or in my case, "kill") an armored opponent in less than 2 seconds without yourself going to ground, as you probably won't have more than that before the lines push you out of position. This means adapting the blocks, strikes, and grapples to be used while moving, instead of slowly and strategically (but you still want to apply strategy!).

 

You need to understand, not memorize the concepts; if you simply memorize WC's concepts, using them at scale would be very difficult, if not impossible. For instance, taking the opponent's balance: in small scale combat, this seems obvious, but how would you apply it to large scale combat? Certainly not by yanking their arm to throw their balance off! This can instead be done through positioning of your troops in key places that cut the enemy's troops maneuverability, as an example. Funnily enough, though, you can also "yank" the enemy troops to throw them off balance through baiting them into weak positions. Both of these cases can apply to single combat through your own positioning and through physically yanking (and psychologically baiting) the opponent, but when understood properly, the concepts themselves can be applied everywhere in life.

 

Think of it like how Sun Tzu's Art of War is currently used in the business world. 

 

Again, I was taught that WC was specifically made to include *EVERYTHING* Chen style has, including the energetic and lethal stuff. It was pieced together from every system in the Shaolin temple at the time, using only the most efficient methods from each one, but that doesn't mean it didn't manage to achieve completion of all of them. 

 

Unfortunately, I can't make those public as I don't have permission from my teachers, and those contain some stuff that shouldn't be released publicly. 

 

This isn't a legend, but actual truth. Karate traces much of its origins to Southern Shaolin, most specifically the systems of White Crane and "Monk Boxing", though some Tiger and Mantis can be seen in particular styles of karate as well. 

 

If you're interested, I'd recommend checking out Jesse Enkamp's videos on the stuff. He does his research very thoroughly and gives sources for much of his findings.

 

I'll link some good ones below:

 

(I got the chance to train in this dojo with Hokama sensei myself, and can confirm that he is insanely knowledgeable about the history of martial arts! If you ever have the chance, please do check out his museum!)

 

Its certainly the case with our founder ; Bushi Matsmura ; him and other 'pechin'  ( sort of like 'knights '  ' 'royalty'  ) went to  Fujian more than once .

 

After Hohan Soken died  I and other students where given his 'Jisei'  *  that he wrote out for us ... interesting subject matter !

 

*  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_poem

 

 

 

"I have taught you all I know. There is no more I can teach you. I am a candle whose light has traveled far. You are my candles to whom I have passed on my light. It is you who will light the path for others. Today I see around me the lights of Shaolin. The flame of tomorrow. My task is done, soon my flame will end. Teach the true spirit of karate-do and one day you may enter the Temple of Shaolin." 
 

[Nungali]

Unfortunately , off to the side of that 'temple' are stalls ; they sell trinkets and flashy weapons that break if used for more than posing ; they have colored belts and all types of colored uniforms and badges and signs of rank ; they sell certificates of merit and accomplishments and promise a future of endless devolved  styles  and junior student fees .

 

many get distracted , buy the   goodies and wander off to seek their fortunes .