Where are the High Level Martial Artists/Fighters at?

[Paradoxal]

18 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

what would be your top drill or move you would recommend a fledgling martial artist to train into their arsenal, and why?

I'd go back and recommend the first one I was forced to learn: wing chun's pak sao.

 

Literally all of WC's moves can be used to counter any attack and as an attack, but the pak sao stands out for two major reasons: its simplicity to learn and the distance it gives.

 

Pak sao, or slapping hands, is just as the name says. You can use it to slap away straight punches, to stop or redirect round punches, to stop or redirect kicks of any kind, and to attack anywhere on the body. If you combine two pak saos, you can create many different combinations of simultaneous attack and defense. If you apply pak sao using the legs, (pak tek instead of pak sao, literally "slapping legs"), it can be used as a sweep, a kick, or a block. The exact same concept applies to all weapons as well!

All this from the same motion we use to get rid of flies!

 

Most importantly for beginners though, the pak sao generates extra distance compared to many other blocking methods, thus giving them space to get their bearing. Beginners are likely not trained to see shots coming and are certainly not prepared to intercept them at close range, so pak saos will allow them to defend themselves as safely as possible while learning to see openings.

 

If you're good enough at it, you literally do not need to step at all to win a fight (I'd highly recommend stepping anyway, though!).

 

 

I'd love to hear other opinions though? 

[Thrice Daily]

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

I'd go back and recommend the first one I was forced to learn: wing chun's pak sao.

Sold choice, me too. It would be nice to get a bit more of that  in.

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

Literally all of WC's moves can be used to counter any attack

Great isnt it, any favourite ways to train with this in mind. With Partner/Solo training?

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

and as an attack,

As long as you got the footwork, and a little luck on your side... 

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

but the pak sao stands out for two major reasons: its simplicity to learn

I don't know if i see it as simple to learn, any tips?

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

and the distance it gives.

and how it feeds in so well to Lap and technical choices in trapping range

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

Pak sao, or slapping hands, is just as the name says. You can use it to slap away straight punches, to stop or redirect round punches, to stop or redirect kicks of any kind, and to attack anywhere on the body. If you combine two pak saos, you can create many different combinations of simultaneous attack and defense. If you apply pak sao using the legs, (pak tek

Thanks that's interesting, I'm looking it up, if anyone else wants to the following might help. It is not an instant find on youtube anyway, 

In Wing Chun, "Pak Tek" (often spelled "Pak Da" or "Pak Sao Da") refers to a technique involving a block (or slap) with a strike.

The Chinese characters for this technique are 拍打 (Mandarin: pī dǎ).

In Cantonese, this is pronounced as Paak Da (拍打), where 拍 (paak) means "slap" or "clap," and 打 (da) means "strike" or "hit."

So "Pak Tek" or "Pak Da" essentially means "slap and strike" or "slap and hit," which describes the technique of deflecting and immediately following up with an attack.

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

instead of pak sao, literally "slapping legs"), it can be used as a sweep, a kick, or a block. The exact same concept applies to all weapons as well!

I'd like to see examples of this with weapons, kinda hard to visualize exactly what you mean

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

All this from the same motion we use to get rid of flies!

 

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

Most importantly for beginners though, the pak sao generates extra distance compared to many other blocking methods, thus giving them space to get their bearing. Beginners are likely not trained to see shots coming and are certainly not prepared to intercept them at close range, so pak saos will allow them to defend themselves as safely as possible while learning to see openings.

Any tips for beginners to help avoid tennis elbow. How to remove ego from pak sao, could be a new post  

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

If you're good enough at it, you literally do not need to step at all to win a fight (I'd highly recommend stepping anyway, though!).

I got similar outlook. I know others who don't though and their next move selection may be kinda different. Who did you train with? Anyone in Ip Lineage?

On 03/11/2024 at 6:11 AM, Paradoxal said:

I'd love to hear other opinions though? 

I hear what you are saying for clear , practical and simple. It is arguably best technique. I've got more to say , it will have to be later though, I gotta dash, i'll share a video later of what i'd like to train more of with partner work...

[Paradoxal]

43 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I don't know if i see it as simple to learn, any tips?

It's literally just a slap. If you've shooed a fly away with your hand, you've done a pak sao. If you've slapped anything with your hand, that's a pak sao. It's one of the natural movements humans use to get stuff away from them. 

 

45 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Great isnt it, any favourite ways to train with this in mind. With Partner/Solo training?

If you don't see how to use a slap to counter an attack, I'd recommend solo visualization training. Visualize the attack coming at you, and figure out a way to slap it away. It can be a hook, straight punch, uppercut, backfist, elbow, knee, or any kind of kick, to name a few. What is important here is learning an innate understanding of how the body works and how pressure affects it when applied in different places. 

49 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

In Wing Chun, "Pak Tek" (often spelled "Pak Da" or "Pak Sao Da") refers to a technique involving a block (or slap) with a strike.

The Chinese characters for this technique are 拍打 (Mandarin: pī dǎ).

In Cantonese, this is pronounced as Paak Da (拍打), where 拍 (paak) means "slap" or "clap," and 打 (da) means "strike" or "hit."

So "Pak Tek" or "Pak Da" essentially means "slap and strike" or "slap and hit," which describes the technique of deflecting and immediately following up with an attack.

This is not how I was taught, and will thus not comment on it because it is not my place to. 

 

What I was taught, however, is that "pak" means "slapping" and "sao" means "hands", while "tek" means legs. The concept involved is "slapping", so the concept can be applied with any limb, tool, or weapon.

 

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'd like to see examples of this with weapons, kinda hard to visualize exactly what you mean

You'll have to wait for a video, but as a theoretical, lightly slapping with the flat of a sword to parry. 

 

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Any tips for beginners to help avoid tennis elbow

Don't fully extend the arm.

 

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

I got similar outlook. I know others who don't though and their next move selection may be kinda different. Who did you train with? Anyone in Ip Lineage?

As far as I know, all of WC has passed through Ip Man, but I've mostly trained in the William Cheung lineage. Again, I'd like to emphasize that just because you CAN win without stepping doesn't mean you SHOULD win without stepping. 

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

The Chinese characters for this technique are 拍打 (Mandarin: pī dǎ).

In Cantonese, this is pronounced as Paak Da (拍打), where 拍 (paak) means "slap" or "clap," and 打 (da) means "strike" or "hit."

FYI 拍打 (Mandarin: pī dǎ), normally,  means strike downward with an open hand or palm. It is like hitting a fly on a table.  

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

while "tek" means legs.

踢(tek): kick, not legs

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

slap

 

slap: 打一巴掌(da yi bazhang)

Edited Saturday at 05:47 AM by ChiDragon

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 
 

I see that a lot of you take a spiritual approach to this as well, which I am sadly ignorant of, but in terms of pure, unarmed combat?

[ChiDragon]

9 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 

 

It seems that way! All other styles will help to develop the body enhancing the internal strength. I saw people boxing in the ring is by body strength. The longer one can hold on the feet is the winner.
 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:10 PM by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

6 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 
 

I see that a lot of you take a spiritual approach to this as well, which I am sadly ignorant of, but in terms of pure, unarmed combat?

It depends on range.

 

Long Range, I'd choose boxing, kick boxing and particular Thai boxing as most deadly and effective

 

Mid Range , I'd choose Kung Fu, very technical , strategic and good for close up conflict with no room for big punches and kicks.

 

Grappling Range , Wrestling, Judo, Ju-Jitsu , I don't practice these but really should do , almost all fights go to the floor, in which case boxing is not got the tools. 

 

So it depends on the range. Wrestling Judo and Jujitsu I think are most effective for finishing a fight, especially finishing it responsibly without causing too much damage.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is there any truth to boxing being the most effective matial art? 
 

I see that a lot of you take a spiritual approach to this as well, which I am sadly ignorant of, but in terms of pure, unarmed combat?

 

Boxing is good  for developing punching and evasion skills . And good for  'unarmed combat ' for people that  are used to competition that works under similar conventions .   But any good boxer that is also a good 'street fighter' or good at actual 'unarmed combat ' (as opposed to a martial arts or martial sport ) is going to have other skills as well .   Eg , what is  the boxing technique to defend against lower kicks to the leg  .... ask Muhammad Ali about that one !

 

[Nungali]

Ju - jitsu ) modern forms ) get a bad rap .  First there is the 'Gracie fiasco' . Next, as far as a 'street fight' goes , many won;t have a bar of it   ( eg, Israeli mate , he was in military and did some Krav magra and was in my club for a while ; " Dont take it to the ground , as soon as you do, their mates that might be hiding and watching , will come in  while you are distracted and give you a kicking . "   Apperently it was a common tactic where he used to live . 

 

And then  in competition ... there are  the dreaded 'rules'  .

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

In terms of conditioning though trad western boxing might actually be king. Two untrained people go at it fighting and it will almost certainly come down to cardio. My take on it anyway. Training in zone 2 cardio for prolonged periods is going to give you a significant edge after a minute or two of going at it. It could all come down to cardio, in which case boxing may be king...

[Thrice Daily]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

Dont take it to the ground , as soon as you do, their mates that might be hiding and watching , will come in  while you are distracted and give you a kicking . "   Apperently it was a common tactic where he used to live . 

Good point

 

I think it is highly beneficial though to have something in the arsenal for this close quarterly combat, just in case, in terms of self defence also, IE, how to stop someone strangulating neck etc 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Ju - jitsu ) modern forms ) get a bad rap .  First there is the 'Gracie fiasco' . Next, as far as a 'street fight' goes , many won;t have a bar of it   ( eg, Israeli mate , he was in military and did some Krav magra and was in my club for a while ; " Dont take it to the ground , as soon as you do, their mates that might be hiding and watching , will come in  while you are distracted and give you a kicking . "   Apperently it was a common tactic where he used to live . 

 

And then  in competition ... there are  the dreaded 'rules'  .

 

 

 

 

I have seen this video before. It is worth noting that his opponent is a white belt and probably a new one at that. I like Jessie, but this is not a good example. After seeing this video I tried it with a purple belt. The results were not the same lol. 

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Good point

 

I think it is highly beneficial though to have something in the arsenal for this close quarterly combat, just in case, in terms of self defence also, IE, how to stop someone strangulating neck etc 

 

Oh sure , thats why one art alone is not good enough .  Old school karate had a lot more  wrestling type stuff in it before  all that got banned for use in modern sports Jap style karate .

 

I remember one such guy , an instructor with a big club interstate ; he was part of 'our style ' .  he tried to use me to 'show off' when visiting us ; invited me to come forward and strike him  so I moved in and he " Stop stop ! Look everyone, he has moved in wrong , now he is too close to do a technique and ...... 

 

(WTF .... 'too close to do a technique ???  ... this from a guy whose supposed  style teaches a whole range of close in fighting grappling  , stranding take downs with follow ups etc  . So I threw a volley of different close strikes , elbows  etc .  he did manage to stop them all, but I soon stopped , as he was too busy stopping and evading  everything  to be able to counter  ... he could have if he had ;earnt the 'infighting'  'stand up wrestling' stuff . ) 

 

So, it was rather funny as his 'lesson ' ended up being ; " See , he is too close to do anything ... except use his elbows  ! "  (as he retreated in vary vigorous blocks and deflections  

 

But maybe you meant , it would be good for a karate guy to know what top do if he gets taken and what to do down on the ground ?

 

Well, simple !  Just do the same as you would standing up     

 

( thats an old karate joke, from some who didnt seem to have 'outside experience '  - I shall let 'The Master ' explain ;

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

23 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I have seen this video before. It is worth noting that his opponent is a white belt and probably a new one at that. I like Jessie, but this is not a good example. After seeing this video I tried it with a purple belt. The results were not the same lol. 

 

Well, that was pretty evident , BEFORE he went in the comp .     But I thought it made a valid point about ' what works in a tournament might not work otherwise'  , tournaments depend on rule adherence .

 

My experience with 'ju-jitsu' was VERY different . I was  young  had been doing modern Jap karate a few years, was mucking around with a mate ( who didnt know any ) and his father offered  "I will give you  a go ."   he was about average height  and VERY slight and skinny , he was an ambulance driver and I think he trained in this for that purpose , sometimes things can get a little 'heated' out there .

 

He didnt even bother  starting with a grapple , it was all strikes and kicks, strange ones I had not seen before . He confidently dealt with what I had to offer .  He got me with a sideways 'chop' between my nose and top lip  and a few other  nerve points  (lightly )  , then got me  off balance , in a tied up position, pressed an elbow into the side of my neck and then let go , he said his next move would have been to let me fall , with him on top , and the combined force, through his elbow into  the side of my throat .  

 

Old school 'ju - jitsu ' .  I also saw an old 'ju-jitsu' manual that seemed similar to what he did , it was a very old police self defense thing .

[Thrice Daily]

I don't know man for me its more like a dance. And I spend several years exploring the same basic movements.

 

Startlingly when I slow it down I'm starting to see that Dao gong naturally emerges. It is a beautiful thing but maybe not so practical for fighting, maybe maybe not..

 

The more I train though , the less the martial art is a physical and the more of a spiritual dimension it holds. It is interesting the spaces that philosophy and alchemy touches the art of movement and appreciation of life in all its forms and perspectives. Or whatever the moment has offered. It's truly splendid and ever so much better when it feels a new skill has been discovered and emerged as though a personal invention in own own time.

[Thrice Daily]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

He didnt even bother  starting with a grapple , it was all strikes and kicks, strange ones I had not seen before . He confidently dealt with what I had to offer .  He got me with a sideways 'chop' between my nose and top lip  and a few other  nerve points  (lightly )  , then got me  off balance , in a tied up position, pressed an elbow into the side of my neck and then let go , he said his next move would have been to let me fall , with him on top , and the combined force, through his elbow into  the side of my throat .  

That sounds like a hoot.

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Old school 'ju - jitsu ' .  I also saw an old 'ju-jitsu' manual that seemed similar to what he did , it was a very old police self defense thing .

Love these old publications, they are like gold if you ask me. I managed to recuse a pile of early 90s combat mags from a rainy garden. Still got them, it's such a treat to read the old interviews, Often a lot to read  between the lines.

[Nungali]

Police training nowadays seems  ... well, ridiculous !

 

In the courts here atm , big time , is a case against police  who where called to a an old peoples nursing home as a 90 year old lady was being aggressive and walking around , with her walking frame  and had a knife . One of the tasered her , she fell back, hit her head and later ... dead .  The police say they felt threatened .  The prosecutor asked if that threat could have been annulled by them merely stepping back  from the old lady .

 

OMG what a stupid mess .  Didnt the   nursing home have a protocol ? Didnt the police have different protocols  (  for a crazed younger person  with a kife and and an old lady with walking frame with a kife  ?  The could merely have done what  we used to do when I worked in a hospital  ; approach them with a couple people holding up a blanket  and wrap them or the offending limb in it .

 

My Israeli mate I mentioned above  works as a carer in such a facility and months back he had the same issue  .  he walked up to the woman , waved his hand in her face off to the side to distract her and grabbed the  knife wrist with other hand and then took the knife out her grip with his first distracting hand . There was no 'lock' , twist, manipulation or 'take down ' .. let alone tasering  !

 

of course that was all against 'protocol '  , he said the reason he did that was the protocol was not suitable for the occasion and besides he didnt want to do all the associated paperwork     . He was 'officially reprimanded ' but had appreciative feedback  given unofficially .

[ChiDragon]

Taiij practitioner vs boxer

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=韩飛龍 MMA&mid=0C3189312892BDD2E38E0C3189312892BDD2E38E&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=韩飛龍 MMA&mid=72E18D02C728404217F872E18D02C728404217F8&ajaxhist=0

Edited Saturday at 10:24 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Wing Chun Master lost due to poor grounding and stance that cannot keep in balance.

 

[ChiDragon]

Wing Chun master with good grounding and footing.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=wing chun style of fighting&mid=1881F5BEE4B6505152DA1881F5BEE4B6505152DA&ajaxhist=0

 

Edited Saturday at 11:00 PM by ChiDragon

[Thrice Daily]

That is mostly very old footage now. I've watched all that back in the past. I think WC is a useful base and great for it's principles and training, in vectors of power and application of force through the stance work and stepping techniques (and turning). I think its very useful to tighten up the structure and make for more compact-full power, wc has a great way to simply and effectively knit the joints together. You can practice almost any set of martial movements with the upper body, like with Taiji, flowing and arching, which is great, but when you drop your stance and start to apply trad wc turning and straight line principle, then you see an entirely different form emerge from the very same movements. (there is a tendency to cut some short, or resist turning so much depending on how you want to defend the mother line and avoid collapsing structure, or facing in an unfavourable direction with regards to your forward pressing energy and subsequent block/strike, so much variety though and a myriad of angles to play with, for almost all movements)

 

They instantly change if circular and flowing like in Tai Chi, many qigong, and now that I learn earlier Daogong, and transform it to a much more militant and staccato like appearance . It's still the form basic movements but they are now transformed, and the ability to generate gross physical power quickly and with little extra skill or effort is evident, even with just a bit if training proper technique it can be applied to what you already know and will massively upgrade your ability to generate power quickly and efficiently from your pre-existing Taiji form, much of it anyway. IMO that is...

 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:10 AM by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

I think technically wing chunners could learn a lot from Taiji players. 

And Taiji players could learn a lot about efficiency from a more compact point of view. 

 

Against mma though, like in the video, if the mma opponent is bigger , heavier and stronger with better cardio, he doesnt need much skill to beat anyone much smaller than him whatever the supposed level is... The trad martial artist should probably just crush his foot with a good stamp. As eye gauging, throat and soft parts are off limits I guess the foot would be the next logocal port of attack.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think technically wing chunners could learn a lot from Taiji players

I don't see how that could work. They are totally different in practice. Wing Chun is stationery that is defensive with the arms in a limited space. Taiji is moving around.